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Old
12-20-2009, 11:51 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
All I keep hearing about is Hamhuis is AWFUL this year. Ok, let's look at statistically:
I sort of like Hamhuis' play this year. But it seems as if every time I don't have a view of the game and am radio only that's when someone will post about something they say he flubbed and many will agree.

It seems odd that most people are seeing a clear difference in pairing effectiveness between Klein and Franson. People were pretty happy with Hammer and Franson, and extremely unhappy with Hammer and Klein. Coming into the year I though Hamhuis and Klein was going to depend only on Klein improving as to whether it was good or not, but Klein has worked well with Bouillon.

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12-20-2009, 11:51 AM
  #27
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Every team needs a scapegoat. Hamhuis is that.

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12-20-2009, 11:51 AM
  #28
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Offensively, Hamhuis does seem better this year. But what makes fans so frustrated are a few prominant errors he tends to make.
This year, more than ever before Hamhuis is going for the puck and while it works against some lesser skilled players, he has been burned several times leading to goals against. Most of the time it seems perfect for some sort of hit, Hammer doesnt take it and I know Hamhuis has tried and succeed in hits like that in the past and that makes the situation more frustrating watching him try to poke the player and fail then a goal being scored.
The other thing Hamhuis is awful at this year is giveaways in our own zone, he can not clear the puck and makes bad decisions.
While Hamhuis still has his great saves behind the goalie and is not a bad player overall, the fact he did about 4 or 5 things wrong on Calgary's 3rd goal was the breaking point for many fans.

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12-20-2009, 12:07 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenWheel View Post
I sort of like Hamhuis' play this year. But it seems as if every time I don't have a view of the game and am radio only that's when someone will post about something they say he flubbed and many will agree.

It seems odd that most people are seeing a clear difference in pairing effectiveness between Klein and Franson. People were pretty happy with Hammer and Franson, and extremely unhappy with Hammer and Klein. Coming into the year I though Hamhuis and Klein was going to depend only on Klein improving as to whether it was good or not, but Klein has worked well with Bouillon.
That's been a common thread. NP.com boards have been talking about this for years. Hamhuis is better with an offensive minded defensemen, thus the pairing with Franson. I can see Trotz trying to kick start the chemistry with Hamhuis and Klein because of their PK time on ice. He's trying to improve the PK by improving the chemstry between Klein and Hamhuis.

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12-20-2009, 12:39 PM
  #30
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No one is griping that he's not putting up points. They're griping because night in and night out, he's the one that's biting on cheap moves, making horrible turnovers, or in the case of yesterday, interfering with Ellis's ability to make a save, and eventually knocking the puck in himself(the third such time he's done so this year, by the way).

He's playing like the second coming of Mark Eaton, and I don't mean that in a complimentary way. Everyone liked to point out the solid plays Eaton would make, too...while overlooking the fact that no one was more determined to play the puck over the man every single time, and would see himself get faked out of his shorts while feably waving his stick at the puck time and time again.

It's not like it's always been this way with Hamhuis...this is very much something that came up in the last two seasons.

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12-20-2009, 12:42 PM
  #31
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One thing I've noticed lately is Hamhuis carrying the puck from behind the net to in front of the crease when starting a break out. It seems like he's doing it more often this season than he has since 06-07. That season he got into the habit, and it resulted in some goals and some close calls.

Hamhuis seems to be playing a relatively solid game for the most part, but as Steve mentioned on the main boards when he does make a mistake it multiplies throughout the game. I expect him to start playing better hockey soon. If not Tuesday then after the Christmas break.

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12-20-2009, 01:57 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
No one is griping that he's not putting up points. They're griping because night in and night out, he's the one that's biting on cheap moves, making horrible turnovers, or in the case of yesterday, interfering with Ellis's ability to make a save, and eventually knocking the puck in himself(the third such time he's done so this year, by the way).
+1.

He is a Dman afterall. We arent all sitting around counting on Hamhuis to spark our offense.

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12-20-2009, 02:04 PM
  #33
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Hamhuis has always favored the poke-check to playing the body. This year, he has completely dropped the physical play. Maybe he is getting burned so much that he is hesitant....I don't know, whatever it is, he is in a funk. It reminds me of the poor play he had several seasons ago after missing all of training camp.

Unlike Dulzhok's opinion, I think Hamhuis has been at times, a good number 2 dman. However, right now, he is only a number 3. On the market, he is probably worth around 4.5 million. Can we afford that? If you consider that we have a self imposed cap about 8 million less than everyone else, then his cost is about 5.15 million to us (when you standardize the salary). We simply cannot afford that.

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12-20-2009, 02:23 PM
  #34
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if you knew Hamhuis was gonna play this way next year wouldnt you rather move Sulzer in and put all that money towards a forward?

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12-20-2009, 03:53 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
That's been a common thread. NP.com boards have been talking about this for years. Hamhuis is better with an offensive minded defensemen, thus the pairing with Franson. I can see Trotz trying to kick start the chemistry with Hamhuis and Klein because of their PK time on ice. He's trying to improve the PK by improving the chemstry between Klein and Hamhuis.
What's that old saying about round pegs and square holes?

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12-20-2009, 04:34 PM
  #36
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I was just looking at last game's pairings. I hadn't noticed, but after Iginla's second goal tied it at 3-3 Trotz switched to Hamhuis-Franson and Bouillon-Klein the rest of the way. That happened at about the 10:30 mark of period two so about half the game each way.

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12-20-2009, 08:34 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenWheel View Post
I was just looking at last game's pairings. I hadn't noticed, but after Iginla's second goal tied it at 3-3 Trotz switched to Hamhuis-Franson and Bouillon-Klein the rest of the way. That happened at about the 10:30 mark of period two so about half the game each way.
Trotz split them up in the early season after they were biting hard for several games, and both started playing much better. It's like putting Fiddler or Tootoo on a scoring line-- he can resist for so long, but eventually he'll give way to temptation.

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12-20-2009, 09:46 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
Trotz split them up in the early season after they were biting hard for several games, and both started playing much better. It's like putting Fiddler or Tootoo on a scoring line-- he can resist for so long, but eventually he'll give way to temptation.
I don't see the analogy, because unlike with Tootoo on a scoring line, here he saw the errors of his ways.

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12-21-2009, 01:09 AM
  #39
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When Hammer is playing at his best he is a huge asset to the team. When he isn't he is usually playing pretty bad, turning the puck over often. I would be hard pressed to give him a long term big money deal. Unfortuanely somebody probably will on reputation alone. Hammer is widely respected around the league. He's been on a Canadian gold medal World Championship team. He was invited to Canada Olympic Orientation camp. I don't see how someone doesn't give him at least 4 million a year for 3+ years.

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02-08-2010, 11:58 AM
  #40
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Would it really be the end of the world, if he was resigned?

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02-08-2010, 12:19 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by KiralyPred View Post
Would it really be the end of the world, if he was resigned?
if he was paired right back with Klein it would.

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02-08-2010, 12:22 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by jstreet View Post
if he was paired right back with Klein it would.
I think Klein should have never been resigned, honestly, I wish Hammy was resigned instead. I know I'll get heat for this.

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02-08-2010, 12:37 PM
  #43
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It still doesn't make sense. Statistically Hamhuis is Hamhuis, even his giveaways. Last year he was 2nd on the team with 58 giveaways. This year he's 6th and on pace for 59 giveaways. Offensive statistics are better than last year.

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02-08-2010, 01:34 PM
  #44
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It still doesn't make sense. Statistically Hamhuis is Hamhuis, even his giveaways. Last year he was 2nd on the team with 58 giveaways. This year he's 6th and on pace for 59 giveaways. Offensive statistics are better than last year.
And statistics can't tell the whole story because this is hockey and not baseball.

If Hamhuis is re-upped and put with Klein for the next three years, I seriously wonder if we'll make the playoffs any of those years. That pairing is practically bleeding goals, and it's costing the team hockey games. They've cost us, what, ten points in the last two months?

If we're really going to commit to Klein , then I think it would be in the club's best interest to move Hamhuis for scoring help, and then turn around and acquire a defender (or possibly get the rearguard in a package deal with the scoring help) to replace him.

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02-08-2010, 05:33 PM
  #45
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You guys are missing the bigger point- David Poile is an evil sociopathic genius.

He isn't a "sheep in sheep's clothing" as suggested by another GM. He is Hannibal freakin Lector in sheep's clothing. He and Trotz have conspired to take the Hammer out of Hamhuis. He's now just a Hammy and they are playing him like a violin.

They paired him with Klein AGAINST ALL REASON merely to destroy his confidence, sap his morale and coerce him into signing a contract that is on par with KK's. It's hockey's version of waterboarding with the cell unlocked....sure he could walk at any time.... BUT HE WON'T. He will beg for a pathetic contract befitting a squalid partner of Kevin Klein. As soon as Hammy is signed to a nice long cheap contract, he gets paired with Franson and becomes the Hammer again.

Look, it already worked on Klein. Poile has him (and us) convinced that he isn't worth #$%* but as soon as the pairing is broken up and he is back with the Cube, he will realize how badly he has been taken in by the evil master. Hey, he was drafted by the best drafter of D talent in the history of the league... and that man took him before Shea "the man" Weber for a reason.

KK will slowly realize that Poile, when he talks about eating KK's for breakfast, wasn't talking about the box of Krispy Kremes on his office desk. POILE WAS TALKING ABOUT HIM. Too late, though, the brain is in the frying pan so to speak.

By then Poile will be wandering down the hall to have Trotz put Hornqvist on a line with Belak for the rest of the year and to add Jody Foster to his IPhone speed dial.

Any other rationale for keeping those two paired together is crazy talk.

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02-08-2010, 05:38 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braindead View Post
You guys are missing the bigger point- David Poile is an evil sociopathic genius.

He isn't a "sheep in sheep's clothing" as suggested by another GM. He is Hannibal freakin Lector in sheep's clothing. He and Trotz have conspired to take the Hammer out of Hamhuis. He's now just a Hammy and they are playing him like a violin.

They paired him with Klein AGAINST ALL REASON merely to destroy his confidence, sap his morale and coerce him into signing a contract that is on par with KK's. It's hockey's version of waterboarding with the cell unlocked....sure he could walk at any time.... BUT HE WON'T. He will beg for a pathetic contract befitting a squalid partner of Kevin Klein. As soon as Hammy is signed to a nice long cheap contract, he gets paired with Franson and becomes the Hammer again.

Look, it already worked on Klein. Poile has him (and us) convinced that he isn't worth #$%* but as soon as the pairing is broken up and he is back with the Cube, he will realize how badly he has been taken in by the evil master. Hey, he was drafted by the best drafter of D talent in the history of the league... and that man took him before Shea "the man" Weber for a reason.

KK will slowly realize that Poile, when he talks about eating KK's for breakfast, wasn't talking about the box of Krispy Kremes on his office desk. POILE WAS TALKING ABOUT HIM. Too late, though, the brain is in the frying pan so to speak.

By then Poile will be wandering down the hall to have Trotz put Hornqvist on a line with Belak for the rest of the year and to add Jody Foster to his IPhone speed dial.

Any other rationale for keeping those two paired together is crazy talk.


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02-08-2010, 07:00 PM
  #47
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I think you guys are overreacting. Hamhuis and Klein is truly NOT a good pairing, but like the Suter/Zidlicky pairing (which was also truly dreadful), it does not mean that one or both of the players are also awful. We saw that as soon as Suter was away from Zidlicky - he was a force. In fact, he became our no. 1 defenseman after Zid was moved, and he has been one of the better d-men in the league the past two years. The same really goes for Klein/Hammer. I think Trotz recognizes they are far better than the other options, and so he pairs them together. Klein still makes dumb mistakes - this is really only his first full season, and he has added nearly 7 minutes in TOI in one year.....he is doing something right out there. Hamhuis has always had the occasional giveaway, which is compounded by Klein's semi-rookie status. With that said, Klein is far and away more talented than anything else behind him. Hamhuis is as well. I can see the reasoning behind it, but it just isn't working. Ideally, we could simply split the two up.

In a long-winded way, I am basically saying - Hamhuis is a good defenseman. Klein is easily worth the ridiculously cheap contract he signed (1.3 million for 3 years???? Come on....We gave DeVries 2.5!). Lets take a step back and stop beating the dead horse in every thread on the boards. Should they be split up? Yes. Can we split them up? Franson and Sulzer would be infinitely worse. Boullion might do better, but he stabilizes that bottom pairing. We have to sleep in this bed, and really, Hamhuis is the one that has to step up his game. He is the veteran, and he needs to be the one that steps up his game and stops making stupid mistakes in his own zone.

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02-08-2010, 07:51 PM
  #48
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Enoch, well said. I know we've all been disappointed with the 2/8 pairing but everything that Poile has said in the past about Hamhuis makes me believe he'll be back next season. As inconsistent as he's been, Trotz still puts him out there for a lot of minutes and Poile has always stated he's part of the 3 defensemen that he wants as his core so he's either been lying or it's just a matter of time before he's re-upped.

I do wonder how long Trotz can use that pairing with the results he's getting. I always marveled at Anaheim and their use of their d-men. They always seemed to have pairings that didn't make sense but for some reason worked. Pronger and Niedermayer were used together on the PP and PK but hardly at even strength and I was always puzzled that Brookbank would get minutes with a guy like Niedermayer. I know many of us would like the cube and Klein back together again but I wonder if splitting up Weber and Suter might be the best answer. Pair Suter with Klein and Weber with Hamhuis and see what happens. I don't know that it works but maybe those are better pairings overall as opposed to having one very solid pair and another that makes you want to go nuts. I just think something needs to be done to gain more consistency on the blue line. I also wonder what the PK combinations should be as well and I think a Suter/Hamhuis and Klein/Weber pairing system may work a little better too. Who really knows but I think it may be time to tinker with this some.

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02-08-2010, 08:22 PM
  #49
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The fact of the matter is that we're trying to win games and get into the playoffs. As of right now, we sit in 8th, with Detroit 2 pts behind us. We're 1 pt behind Calgary, and 4 behind Colorado. We're not catching Phoenix, or LA anytime soon, and Vancouver doesn't even matter because they are leading the division. Sure, we may look back on Klein if he develops into something awesome, and really think we're dumb for saying these comments, but right now, I don't see how anyone can defend him.

I, for one, think that +/- is one of the, if not the key factor in determining a defenseman. He's -12, and that doesn't even factor in PP GA. That may not be as bad as it seems, but I still do not get why Trotz pairs them together all the time. They let in a goal, BAM back on the ice. Maybe this is why we aren't getting paid big to coach.

Splitting up Suter/Weber may help, but who knows. We count on them for being the shut down pair, and put up points more than the rest of our defenseman. We have a solid group of all-around, or defensive defesemen, which is awesome. It just needs to click at some point, and right now, the 2nd line pairing, isn't.

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02-08-2010, 08:27 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
I think you guys are overreacting. Hamhuis and Klein is truly NOT a good pairing, but like the Suter/Zidlicky pairing (which was also truly dreadful), it does not mean that one or both of the players are also awful. We saw that as soon as Suter was away from Zidlicky - he was a force. In fact, he became our no. 1 defenseman after Zid was moved, and he has been one of the better d-men in the league the past two years. The same really goes for Klein/Hammer. I think Trotz recognizes they are far better than the other options, and so he pairs them together. Klein still makes dumb mistakes - this is really only his first full season, and he has added nearly 7 minutes in TOI in one year.....he is doing something right out there. Hamhuis has always had the occasional giveaway, which is compounded by Klein's semi-rookie status. With that said, Klein is far and away more talented than anything else behind him. Hamhuis is as well. I can see the reasoning behind it, but it just isn't working. Ideally, we could simply split the two up.

In a long-winded way, I am basically saying - Hamhuis is a good defenseman. Klein is easily worth the ridiculously cheap contract he signed (1.3 million for 3 years???? Come on....We gave DeVries 2.5!). Lets take a step back and stop beating the dead horse in every thread on the boards. Should they be split up? Yes. Can we split them up? Franson and Sulzer would be infinitely worse. Boullion might do better, but he stabilizes that bottom pairing. We have to sleep in this bed, and really, Hamhuis is the one that has to step up his game. He is the veteran, and he needs to be the one that steps up his game and stops making stupid mistakes in his own zone.
+1

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