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Old
11-27-2009, 01:43 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Yes, but maybe he believes or is being told the way to do that is sign a Hossa, or a Heatley, or heaven forbid a Jagr.
If those players would actually agree to come to Edmonton, this would be a playoff team when healthy.

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11-27-2009, 01:45 PM
  #77
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If those players would actually agree to come to Edmonton, this would be a playoff team when healthy.
+1

you do need atleast 2 of those players to be a good team..

PIT, DET, ANA(when they won) all had 3+ star players..

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11-27-2009, 01:46 PM
  #78
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If those players would actually agree to come to Edmonton, this would be a playoff team when healthy.
I dont know that it would and is that what we are shooting for? Kinda sets the bar pretty low if you ask me. Both as a fan and an owner. Would you rather pay a premium for a big ticket vet and see one or two rounds or have two or three elc's or rfa's making less and taking you just as far and hopefully further? We know what Lowe thinks. That's what worries me.

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11-27-2009, 01:47 PM
  #79
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That sort of caught my eye. "the only thing wrong with their build is that they..." did it all wrong...

People use examples of Pitt, Atl, or whichever team...but what about teams like Boston? They took a dive, but not a huge one (their highest draft pick in the last 10 years was Kessel at number 5), but have several high performers from their drafting, including Lucic (#50), Sobotka (#106), Krejci (#63), Alberts (#179) and Bergeron (#45), as well as Marchand in his rookie year doing respectably at draft position 71.

You know the key to their successful turnaround from their dismal situation of perpetual failure? A combination of greaet signings, and great development.

Oilers are in the same position to pull this off in the next 2 to 3 years IF they don't blow things up. There are problems that need to be dealt with (all of which concern bad contracts), but as the Oilers slowly shed them like last year's skin, they could create something very dynamic and competitive.

There are two ways to build...at this point, I like Boston's way better than Pittsburgh's.

sidenote to this is IMO, it would require the signing, or acquisition of ONE more impact player, by which I mean a player that can change the game themselves, and a player that influences all those around him to play better. The Bruins have one on othe back end in Chara, and one on the front end in Savard. The Oilers have this locked on the back end in Souray...the question is who will be the front end member. Do we have it in Penner? Or are we still in search mode?
Well I would suspect that breaking Boston down over the last ten years or so like I did Atlanta would prove revealing. But I'm gonna shoot for keeping my word content down in this post instead.

The first big thing I want to ask you is looking at Boston, top to bottom, does that look like a team built for sustained success? Chara is about to be 33 in March. Savard? He's 32. (the other key factor of both these players? They signed as UFAs. And IIRC Chara in particular was yet another of those that Lowe desperately wanted and whiffed on) I'll just leave Tim Thomas alone for now.

I think all you'd need to look at are last years playoffs where Boston was exposed as nothing near the powerhouse everyone thought.

The last major point I'll key in on for Boston stems from this. When you look at players like Savard, Krejci, Lucic, & Bergeron (I don't know how Sobotka and Alberts get included in this discussion, especially as one of those players isn't there any longer) that looks great right? Except once you take stock of the fact that over the coming years your direct competition boasts Crosby & Malkin & Staal. Carter & Richards & well about half a dozen other epic players. Ovechkin & Semin & Backstrom & Green. Can the former really be expected to compete with the latter? A team overvaluing their own talent is just about the biggest achilles heel you could ask for.

If I have to have one team to model myself after between Pit and Bos, it's Pit everyday of the week. One of these teams has already won a cup and looks to be a perennial contender indefinitely. One looks to be a playoff team for a couple more years before who knows, and almost assuredly not a cup winner.



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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Great post J.A.! One just has to look at the Thrasher list of picks to see the drop-off after third. Unfortunately for us, ownership and management have done everything they can to win now and seem opposed to a rebuild.


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Trouble is, there's no way in hell management would do it. As long there's enough "casual" hockey fans in this market to fill the rink, what's the motivation to take the painful but necessary steps improve the product? As long the building's full, Katz will be content to count his money and listen Lowe's stories from the glory days. In other words: we're hooped.
This is almost assuredly the truth. Although I'd still vastly prefer talking about better alternatives than just bending over and accepting whatever mess is trotted out to us under the guise of "perpetual competitiveness".

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11-27-2009, 01:49 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I dont know that it would and is that what we are shooting for? Kinda sets the bar pretty low if you ask me. Both as a fan and an owner. Would you rather pay a premium for a big ticket vet and see one or two rounds or have two or three elc's or rfa's making less and taking you just as far and hopefully further? We know what Lowe thinks. That's what worries me.
A core of Hossa/Heatley, Hemsky, Gagner, Brule, MPS, Eberle, Vis, Souray, Smid, etc. would be pretty good with some tweaks to the bottom six. Arguably in time that would be as good if not better than the 2006 team in terms of talent and depth.

Doesn't really matter now anyway. If Hemmer is done for the season, our draft position is likely to improve and fast.

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11-27-2009, 02:45 PM
  #81
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I dont disagree. But I think Katz wants to win. We will see if he is able to figure it out.
I hate speculating about the personal motivations of total strangers, but he's only been owner for two years. I wonder if he's still in the giddy "I own my favourite team!" honeymoon phase. It might take a few more years of losing to get him on the trolley.

That being said, I think there's a lot of middle ground be missed by people advocating a full rebuild and those calling for a few roster tweaks. This team is short on high end talent, but it's got a lot of promising youth in the pipeline. There's quality among the veterans as well (Hemsky, Lubo, Penner, Horcoff), as well as some dross. In short, I don't think there's one surefire way to go about it. One way I'd do it is to start by offloading the veterans I mentioned previously for picks, prospects and cap space, then get to work signing cheap veterans to fill their spots on short term deals in hopes of holding the fort until the kids step in. Keep pitching for high end talent as it comes available on the FA or trade market (that's where the picks and prospects you stockpiled earlier can come in handy). If no one bites, you'll still have a full pipeline. I'd also consider using offer sheets aggressively to poach already developed talent on expiring ELCs or even just to ****** with rival teams' salary structure.

Regardless of the path they take, they need to be clear about their intentions, and they need to stick to it.

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11-28-2009, 01:38 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by JohnAlexander View Post
And yet the counter can't help but jump out and beat you over the head. If all those teams have done so well "lucking" into years of suckage, just how much better might a team be able to do with a rebuild template that it implemented consciously?

Perhaps the very best lesson the Thrashers have to share is that if you're going to rebuild, do it with both eyes wide open. The Oilers do that and make no mistake, this team is a cup contender. In perpetuity.
This is probably the first time anyone has taken the time explain the tanking approach so preferred by many on this board. And frankly, you bring up some great points. Well done.

I guess I still don't buy the guaranteed cup contender from a consciously planned rebuild template angle. It seems to me that there is still so much luck involved with translating a top 10 pick into a bonafied NHLer that even doing this in a planned way for however many years it takes to get "the next one" or maybe two seems imprudent. Perhaps even irresponsible. It's simply not the only way!

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Old
11-28-2009, 02:04 AM
  #83
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If Tambellini opts to try and salvage the season, I could see Jason Pominville as a trade target. He's a 20-40-60 winger, a poor man's Hemsky in about every way. His big contract ($5.3M for the next four years) is the killer, but moving Gilbert and maybe Nilsson softens the blow.

He'd be a legit top-line RW, and would give us another potent scorer when (if?) everyone's healthy

Brule-Penner-Gagner
O'Sullivan-Horcoff-Pominville
Moreau-Cogliano-Potulny
Jacques-O'Marra-McDonald

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11-28-2009, 02:06 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
If Tambellini opts to try and salvage the season, I could see Jason Pominville as a trade target. He's a 20-40-60 winger, a poor man's Hemsky in about every way. His big contract ($5.3M for the next four years) is the killer, but moving Gilbert and maybe Nilsson softens the blow.

He'd be a legit top-line RW, and would give us another potent scorer when (if?) everyone's healthy

Brule-Penner-Gagner
O'Sullivan-Horcoff-Pominville
Moreau-Cogliano-Potulny
Jacques-O'Marra-McDonald
I don't know if you heard Quinn's post game Mr. Bugg but he made it pretty clear the team won't be making any moves.


They want to ride the ponies they have.

I wouldn't expect any moves until the trade deadline at the earliest.

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11-28-2009, 02:09 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
I don't know if you heard Quinn's post game Mr. Bugg but he made it pretty clear the team won't be making any moves.


They want to ride the ponies they have.

I wouldn't expect any moves until the trade deadline at the earliest.
I didn't hear that, no. Thanks.

I'm starting to warm up to the criticism that Tambellini basically gets paid to play pocket pool. He certainly hasn't used his hands to do anything else.

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11-28-2009, 02:12 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
I didn't hear that, no. Thanks.

I'm starting to warm up to the criticism that Tambellini basically gets paid to play pocket pool. He certainly hasn't used his hands to do anything else.
They still seem to think the team has what it takes when healthy.

I'm not sure Quinn believes that but he's towing the company line.

I've thought all along that this season is all about the new coaching staff assessing the talent in the system while still trying to sell the rubes on hopes for the playoffs.

All the injuries are a major inconvenience, however.

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Old
11-28-2009, 02:20 AM
  #87
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I'm just asking for this group to play a tough brand of hockey and actually be entertaining. That's all I want. If they get a lottery pick, whatever.

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11-28-2009, 05:50 AM
  #88
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The only problem with your approach is that it would have to bear fruit rather quickly as the Oilers "impact" players are much older and the supporting cast is weaker.

Unless you're planning on making noise in the next 2-3 years, Souray, Vinsovsky, Khabibulin et al will be at the age where you can expect a decline in performance.

And banking on Penner to become Savard, while not impossible, is still up in the air.
All this is true. However, hoping for someone like Hemsky to become Savard is not out of the question. Savard, himself, did not emerge as a leader until about 5 years ago. I think that a few changes would have to be made, but Souray is 33, has about 3 years left in him before he starts to really decline. Same with Visnovsky.

Overall, there are a few differences...obviously there would be in the type of building I am talking about. However, there are similarities that could be applied.

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Well I would suspect that breaking Boston down over the last ten years or so like I did Atlanta would prove revealing. But I'm gonna shoot for keeping my word content down in this post instead.

The first big thing I want to ask you is looking at Boston, top to bottom, does that look like a team built for sustained success? Chara is about to be 33 in March. Savard? He's 32. (the other key factor of both these players? They signed as UFAs. And IIRC Chara in particular was yet another of those that Lowe desperately wanted and whiffed on) I'll just leave Tim Thomas alone for now.

I think all you'd need to look at are last years playoffs where Boston was exposed as nothing near the powerhouse everyone thought.

The last major point I'll key in on for Boston stems from this. When you look at players like Savard, Krejci, Lucic, & Bergeron (I don't know how Sobotka and Alberts get included in this discussion, especially as one of those players isn't there any longer) that looks great right? Except once you take stock of the fact that over the coming years your direct competition boasts Crosby & Malkin & Staal. Carter & Richards & well about half a dozen other epic players. Ovechkin & Semin & Backstrom & Green. Can the former really be expected to compete with the latter? A team overvaluing their own talent is just about the biggest achilles heel you could ask for.

If I have to have one team to model myself after between Pit and Bos, it's Pit everyday of the week. One of these teams has already won a cup and looks to be a perennial contender indefinitely. One looks to be a playoff team for a couple more years before who knows, and almost assuredly not a cup winner.
Well considering the fact that the only argument on age you have is Chara and Savard, I would say that maintaining their level is quite possible. Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic, Sobotka (who is a rookie with great skill and a great future, chosen in the 4th round, which is why i included him...alberts...well consdier that a brain fart ) are all under 25...and ALL play different roles. As for Thomas...he will be nicely replaced by Rask, who is already, at age 22, challenging the former Allstar for the starting position.

I mean...sure, if you are going to build a team as an expansion team (or for example, on NHL 10), then getting 4 top 5 picks in a row is a really good way to do it. However, I would almost guarantee that if the owners of the Penguins could do it differently than they did...they would....they lost a lot of money...almost folded, almost moved, and almost got bought. I seriously think that any normal businessman would prefer to have steady success instead of such volatile success like they have had. And as far as "perpetual success", I am not sure if you realize what that takes. What it does take is steady and CONSTANT development of young players...I know it is only one source but HF ranks them as 3rd to last in their prospect pool...to me that means the volatile success is not over. If they are to prove you right, they have a lot of work to do! Boston, on the other hand, while being near the top of the league and competing strongly with all the top teams, is ranked 11th.

Tanking is not the answer. It loses the team money, it loses it fans, it loses interest from players (which is already in the dumster), and it does not guarantee long term success. Long term success is guaranteed through long term dedication in scouting development. 5th and 6th rounders can become top scorers in the league if you do things right. and as Boston could be in the process of proving (with only 2 UFA signings, by the way...quite similar to Pitts who have Geurin, Fedotenko, Skoula and others through UFA, none of which are toddlers....) along with everyone's favourite example, Detroit, you can succeed long term without tanking.

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11-28-2009, 07:26 AM
  #89
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You're missing the point...

It's about good scouting, good player development, and surrounding young players with veteran talent and leadership to show them the proper way to play.

Think it was a coincidence that the Oil found a couple faceoff magicians after Adam Oates's stay? Or that the likes of Pronger, Spacek, Samsonov, Smyth, and several other reliable vets carried the '06 Oilers to the promised land?

Players like Stoll, Hemsky, Horcoff, Pisani, Greene, and Bergeron evolved into impact players right before our eyes. It's no coincidence at all.
Yes, but you're also missing the point: that higher picks yield higher quality players.

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11-28-2009, 07:43 AM
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I'm starting to warm up to the criticism that Tambellini basically gets paid to play pocket pool. He certainly hasn't used his hands to do anything else.
I agree with this . Tambellini has accomplished a little bit more than nothing since arriving here . Because he's an outsider , he's not going to get years and years from the fans to prove himself like Lowe did either . If he doesn't start improving the roster soon I imagine the cries for his head will commence .

Why did we hire a former Canuck executive anyway ? The whale have a unblemished record of futility .... I know that's where I'm going to look for my new team leader .

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11-28-2009, 05:25 PM
  #91
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This is probably the first time anyone has taken the time explain the tanking approach so preferred by many on this board. And frankly, you bring up some great points. Well done.

I guess I still don't buy the guaranteed cup contender from a consciously planned rebuild template angle. It seems to me that there is still so much luck involved with translating a top 10 pick into a bonafied NHLer that even doing this in a planned way for however many years it takes to get "the next one" or maybe two seems imprudent. Perhaps even irresponsible. It's simply not the only way!
Well thank you very much.

I mean nothing is guaranteed in life but those odds of talent procurement through the prime draft choices are extremely good. And while again I'd wholeheartedly agree that it's not the only way, we can never forget that we're talking about the Oilers specifically here, and the conditions that would predicate their success are going to be determined by their unique situation.

And with that in mind I have a hard time seeing any other path with as likely a chance of success.

Honestly I'd be thrilled to see someone etch out a long term gameplan for the Oilers based in their current situation, top to bottom on our roster, with specific likely trades molds, free agent acquisitions and projected finishes and draft slots etc... But so far no one has been up to the challenge.

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Well considering the fact that the only argument on age you have is Chara and Savard, I would say that maintaining their level is quite possible. Bergeron, Krejci, Lucic, Sobotka (who is a rookie with great skill and a great future, chosen in the 4th round, which is why i included him...alberts...well consdier that a brain fart ) are all under 25...and ALL play different roles. As for Thomas...he will be nicely replaced by Rask, who is already, at age 22, challenging the former Allstar for the starting position.

I mean...sure, if you are going to build a team as an expansion team (or for example, on NHL 10), then getting 4 top 5 picks in a row is a really good way to do it. However, I would almost guarantee that if the owners of the Penguins could do it differently than they did...they would....they lost a lot of money...almost folded, almost moved, and almost got bought. I seriously think that any normal businessman would prefer to have steady success instead of such volatile success like they have had. And as far as "perpetual success", I am not sure if you realize what that takes. What it does take is steady and CONSTANT development of young players...I know it is only one source but HF ranks them as 3rd to last in their prospect pool...to me that means the volatile success is not over. If they are to prove you right, they have a lot of work to do! Boston, on the other hand, while being near the top of the league and competing strongly with all the top teams, is ranked 11th.

Tanking is not the answer. It loses the team money, it loses it fans, it loses interest from players (which is already in the dumster), and it does not guarantee long term success. Long term success is guaranteed through long term dedication in scouting development. 5th and 6th rounders can become top scorers in the league if you do things right. and as Boston could be in the process of proving (with only 2 UFA signings, by the way...quite similar to Pitts who have Geurin, Fedotenko, Skoula and others through UFA, none of which are toddlers....) along with everyone's favourite example, Detroit, you can succeed long term without tanking.
Wait, wait...to paraphrase your original post "the Bruins have two impact players, Savard and Chara". But now it's not such a big deal to future success if they fall off the map in a hurry? I'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that. Savard and Chara are the Bruins. Once they lose effectiveness that team will not be even close to the same. And then at the end of your post you try and slough off their meaning and importance to the Bruins again as "only 2 UFA signings"...yeah only two UFA signings that Edmonton has next to zero chance of replicating, and only two UFA signings that are the absolute core of their team. Seeing as those two are such a lynchpin of your entire argument I would say your disaster of a post derails right then and there, but we'll continue.

Honestly if Sobotka is a player you're highlighting as a draft gem and key to the future success of that team I think sense and reason have been left completely out of the equation. He's a fourth line grinder who's still in and out of the pressbox, plays 10 mins a night when in the lineup, and boasts a meager 1 goal and 3 points in 16 games this season. The goal and an assist coming against a defensively porous Edmonton. If this is the next player in line who gets highlighted after Krejci, Lucic, and Bergeron then Boston is right and truly ****ed heading into the future.

Ahh, nice subtle knock there on the argument and my intelligence as a whole with the NHL 10 comment. The funny thing is that in reality that's not how you build a team on NHL 10. In fantasy game land people make ridiculous home-run trades and exploit first dibs on the free agent market to load their team with superstars. Embarrassingly enough that's practically how Edmonton has gone about trying to make this team better over the last few years. Not surprisingly, it hasn't worked. But what has Edmonton had over that time period (we can go all the way back to 2001 on this one)? Steady and CONSTANT! development of young players. Yeah, team's been great.

And on the flip side you're knocking a team who's got the extraordinary core of Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fleury, Letang, Goligoski, Kunitz and Orpik for the indefinite future as not being eligible for perpetual success because the pipeline is thin????? Right, they're so bereft of talent heading forward that my God if only they had Joe Colborne and Yuri Alexandrov to call on instead of Eric Tangradi and Simon Despres, they'd have a shot! Yeah, the horizon in PIT is bleak...accursed non steady and constant development of young players. (all sarcasm and irony aside, it can't be underscored enough that they've already won a cup with those players, and been to the dance twice. Something that in and of itself could arguably justify a lengthy tankjob).

And yes, the one and only decent argument I've seen against a rebuild is it's a short term business risk (if you're still going to harp on long term risks then your head is well and truly stuck in the sand). But then again weren't teams like Pit, Chi, & Wsh in less viable hockey markets in the States and are still alive and better than ever today? Does the risk for them honestly exist at the same level in a Canadian "hockey city"? With a billionaire owner backing the team?

Now I should probably just stop there, but I can't help but think I may have stumbled across the real blueprint for success you're trying to advocate here in the bolded comments.

Step 1 - get yo self some mad drafting skillz.

Step 2 - Draft the next Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Datsyuk no higher than the 3rd round of the draft, preferably back in the 5-7 range where the real gems are hidden and your newly acquired draft skillz decimate and destroy.

Step 3 - Profit! Success! In perpetuity!

Good luck with that.

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11-28-2009, 06:18 PM
  #92
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If only Edmonton loses that game to Calgary in 2007 which would have ended picking #5 instead of #6 (Chicago's spot which ultimately won the lottery) you would have Patrick Kane instead of Gagner. That may have been kick start to a proper rebuild. Hopefully, Gagner can become a franchise player, but Kane is already one.
I think you're right.

I'd laugh at the irony if I wasn't crying: The "must win" games we lose, and the "must lose" game we win.

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11-28-2009, 06:27 PM
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While I would love to see him trade lubor, souray, gilbert, penner and horcoff

But I think that we will see a stupid trade such as a first rounder for an over the hill 30 year old with a bad contract

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11-28-2009, 06:28 PM
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of course not, management will blame injuries for the record and say "well, if it weren't for injuries we might've squeeked in!"
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11-28-2009, 06:29 PM
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He was on Oilers lunch this week. Telling us how positive things look.

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11-28-2009, 07:40 PM
  #96
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Well thank you very much.

I mean nothing is guaranteed in life but those odds of talent procurement through the prime draft choices are extremely good. And while again I'd wholeheartedly agree that it's not the only way, we can never forget that we're talking about the Oilers specifically here, and the conditions that would predicate their success are going to be determined by their unique situation.

And with that in mind I have a hard time seeing any other path with as likely a chance of success.

Honestly I'd be thrilled to see someone etch out a long term gameplan for the Oilers based in their current situation, top to bottom on our roster, with specific likely trades molds, free agent acquisitions and projected finishes and draft slots etc... But so far no one has been up to the challenge.



Wait, wait...to paraphrase your original post "the Bruins have two impact players, Savard and Chara". But now it's not such a big deal to future success if they fall off the map in a hurry? I'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that. Savard and Chara are the Bruins. Once they lose effectiveness that team will not be even close to the same. And then at the end of your post you try and slough off their meaning and importance to the Bruins again as "only 2 UFA signings"...yeah only two UFA signings that Edmonton has next to zero chance of replicating, and only two UFA signings that are the absolute core of their team. Seeing as those two are such a lynchpin of your entire argument I would say your disaster of a post derails right then and there, but we'll continue.

Honestly if Sobotka is a player you're highlighting as a draft gem and key to the future success of that team I think sense and reason have been left completely out of the equation. He's a fourth line grinder who's still in and out of the pressbox, plays 10 mins a night when in the lineup, and boasts a meager 1 goal and 3 points in 16 games this season. The goal and an assist coming against a defensively porous Edmonton. If this is the next player in line who gets highlighted after Krejci, Lucic, and Bergeron then Boston is right and truly ****ed heading into the future.

Ahh, nice subtle knock there on the argument and my intelligence as a whole with the NHL 10 comment. The funny thing is that in reality that's not how you build a team on NHL 10. In fantasy game land people make ridiculous home-run trades and exploit first dibs on the free agent market to load their team with superstars. Embarrassingly enough that's practically how Edmonton has gone about trying to make this team better over the last few years. Not surprisingly, it hasn't worked. But what has Edmonton had over that time period (we can go all the way back to 2001 on this one)? Steady and CONSTANT! development of young players. Yeah, team's been great.

And on the flip side you're knocking a team who's got the extraordinary core of Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fleury, Letang, Goligoski, Kunitz and Orpik for the indefinite future as not being eligible for perpetual success because the pipeline is thin????? Right, they're so bereft of talent heading forward that my God if only they had Joe Colborne and Yuri Alexandrov to call on instead of Eric Tangradi and Simon Despres, they'd have a shot! Yeah, the horizon in PIT is bleak...accursed non steady and constant development of young players. (all sarcasm and irony aside, it can't be underscored enough that they've already won a cup with those players, and been to the dance twice. Something that in and of itself could arguably justify a lengthy tankjob).

And yes, the one and only decent argument I've seen against a rebuild is it's a short term business risk (if you're still going to harp on long term risks then your head is well and truly stuck in the sand). But then again weren't teams like Pit, Chi, & Wsh in less viable hockey markets in the States and are still alive and better than ever today? Does the risk for them honestly exist at the same level in a Canadian "hockey city"? With a billionaire owner backing the team?

Now I should probably just stop there, but I can't help but think I may have stumbled across the real blueprint for success you're trying to advocate here in the bolded comments.

Step 1 - get yo self some mad drafting skillz.

Step 2 - Draft the next Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Datsyuk no higher than the 3rd round of the draft, preferably back in the 5-7 range where the real gems are hidden and your newly acquired draft skillz decimate and destroy.

Step 3 - Profit! Success! In perpetuity!

Good luck with that.
To paraphrase my thoughts on this...response...of yours i will say that you are simply trying to mask simple straight forward logic with a bunch of long winded intellectual irrelevant and untrue comments. I did not say that Savard and Chara were unimportant at all. I also did not imply that the Bruins have only 2 impact players...My whole argument was that these two signings helped turn them around while they were getting impact play from the rest of their draft graduates. Now say what you want about Sobotka...that is a different issue where we simply seem to differ in opinion (you thinking he is useless...after a 16 career game assessment, and me thinking he will develop into a significant player).

And don't try and throw all these names at me that the Pens have in their system. I know they have a great core, but how many are going to be there in 3 years? They have TWO players at a cap hit of 8.7 per year. One centre in Staal that will want a raise when his contract comes up in 2012, whom they had trouble fitting in already with his new contract.....Orpik is locked in, but they have Letang who is due at the end of next year, and they can barely keep their team together as it is, with 10 thousand under the cap right now...they are also looking at posisbly losing Gonchar...and with such a shallow pool of prospects to replace those they will lose...who is going to replace this "amazing core of players"???

Sure they won a cup...i give you that they have the 2 best players in the game. or at least 2 of the top 3. But in the cap world...two contracts at 8.7...just doesn't leave much for depth and you have to rely on rookie (or at least young) talent to bring you through. they don't have it coming up and unless they draft REALLY well, they WON'T have it. The only player of ANY note on their roster after the "amazing 4" is Tyler Kennedy. I mean...where are you going with this? If you want to choose a different team to base as your "model team' then let me know...but this ain't it. I am sorry.

If you want me to get down to the point of this argument, all useless details aside (we can compare Pittsburgh to Boston, or Carolina to Florida...it doesn't matter), as NHL is a business, and the true measure of success is long term and sustained success, even if it doesn't mean a ring on your finger every second year...tanking is not the answer.

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11-28-2009, 07:59 PM
  #97
okgooil
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Will have to wait till the trade deadline, no way he starts now.

Grebs who will be a RFA I could see gone, Stiaos if some one will take him, Moreau.

Fire sales don't really happen that much in the new NHL. THere will be a few players going, get a high pick and shuffle the deck a bit in the offseason.

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11-28-2009, 08:07 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
Will have to wait till the trade deadline, no way he starts now.

Grebs who will be a RFA I could see gone, Stiaos if some one will take him, Moreau.

Fire sales don't really happen that much in the new NHL. THere will be a few players going, get a high pick and shuffle the deck a bit in the offseason.
Lombardi managed to offload, Blake, Vinsovsky, O'Sullivan, Pressing, Thornton, Camalleri and Calder in pretty short order.

And the Oilers need more than a minor shuffling of the deck.

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11-28-2009, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Lombardi managed to offload, Blake, Vinsovsky, O'Sullivan, Pressing, Thornton, Camalleri and Calder in pretty short order.

And the Oilers need more than a minor shuffling of the deck.
I am almost certain a few players will be gone.
likely:

Comrie, one or both of Staios/Moreau. Pisani will not be re-signed.

possible:
Visnovsky, Souray, Grebeshkov, O'Sullivan, Cogliano, Nilsson

Will not be moved:

Penner, Hemsky, Gagner, Horcoff (nobody will take him), Brule, Gilbert, JFJ, Habibulin.

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11-28-2009, 08:34 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
I am almost certain a few players will be gone.
likely:

Comrie, one or both of Staios/Moreau. Pisani will not be re-signed.

possible:
Visnovsky, Souray, Grebeshkov, O'Sullivan, Cogliano, Nilsson

Will not be moved:

Penner, Hemsky, Gagner, Horcoff (nobody will take him), Brule, Gilbert, JFJ, Habibulin.
Sounds about right although I would put Nilsson into the "for certain" category and Khabibulin into the "possible."

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