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Old
11-29-2009, 12:02 AM
  #1
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Scoring From Our Defense

Yes the Rangers have problems, we all know that.

Let's talk about a bright spot. Our four young defensemen have the following stats.

Marc Staal:
3 goals and 7 assists (10 points)
Matt Gilroy:
4 goals 2 assists (6 points)
Michael Del Zotto:
5 goals 11 assists (16 points)
Dan Girardi:
4 goals 5 assists (9 points)

That translates to these stats over the course of a full season.

Marc Staal: 9.46 goals and 22.08 assists (31.54 points)
Matt Gilroy: 12.62 goals and 6.31 assists (18.93 points)
Michael Del Zotto: 15.77 goals and 34.69 assists (50.46 points)
Dan Girardi: 12.62 goals and 15.77 assists (28.39 points)

Now I doubt that they continue at these paces. I don't see any of these guys reaching such projected stats, but barring tremendous drop-off in play they all will put in nice seasons offensively. For instance, even is Staal "regresses" to have a season total of 6 goals that would be GREAT production out of him and would be a HUGE leap from last year.

It's one thing to do the hypothetical, "look at our prospects and see what a future lineup could look like in an ideal situation." It's another when most of those hypothetical work out. We have 4 NHL defensemen as listed above, and Staal and Del Zotto can be top pairing. After that, if Sanguinetti isn't an NHL defenseman already then he's on the cusp of it, and McDonagh is perhaps a year away. How many teams can say they have 4 defensemen under the age of 24 that range from good to great along with 1 who will be, at worst, ready by training camp next year, and another who is well on his way to becoming an NHL defenseman? This isn't hypothetical, "if everything works out then we could have this..." type of thing. This is reality. We're in an unbelievable situation.

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11-29-2009, 12:20 AM
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t3hg00se
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I hate how this team is in it's current state, but then I remind myself; We have the 2nd best prospects in the league, we have the 2nd best young D in the league (behind probably the Kings imo), we have Henrik Lundqvist, we have Marian Gaborik.

This team is going to win a cup in the next 5 years, we can all safely bet on that. Even if a couple of our prospects complete and totally bust, we don't have room for all of them anyway.
^----------------*Edit

I know I said that the team is going to win a cup, but what I really meant is that they'd be contenders. Our piss poor contracts will be off the books, Slats probably won't be here, Hank will still be in his prime, and hopefully we've made a nice free agent signing. My mistake, I'm buzzed and sleepy =P


Last edited by t3hg00se: 11-29-2009 at 12:56 AM.
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11-29-2009, 12:33 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t3hg00se View Post
I hate how this team is in it's current state, but then I remind myself; We have the 2nd best prospects in the league, we have the 2nd best young D in the league (behind probably the Kings imo), we have Henrik Lundqvist, we have Marian Gaborik.

This team is going to win a cup in the next 5 years, we can all safely bet on that. Even if a couple of our prospects complete and totally bust, we don't have room for all of them anyway.
Honestly, you're dreaming, but I am of the opinion that as long as Drury/Redden/Rozisval are taking up cap space this team won't win a cup.

At this point all three of those players are immovable. I know everyone knows the numbers but these three players are going to eat 18 mil between them for the remainder of this season, and two more. And Redden's 6.5 doesn't get off the books until after 2013-2014.

I do believe if the prospects/young players do pan out, the core is definitely going to be in place. Gaborik, Lundqvist, Staal, Del Zotto, Gilroy, Sanguinetti, McDonagh, Anisimov, Stepan, Grachev, Callahan, Dubinsky is nothing to sneeze at; and I'm sure I forgot a few names.

We also have good complimentary players like Avery, Lisin, Boyle, Prospal...

But then look at the cap, it's going to be very tough to keep all of these players around when the team has about 32 million tied up in 3 unmovable players and Gaborik and Lundqvist (no complaints on the last two obviously).

And not only are all three of those players immovable but two of them are regressing and one is playing 3 million dollar hockey (Redden).

Barring a complete change in the mentality of the team this season, I think this season is a lost cause or they'll do that thing where they sneak into the playoffs and don't make it passed the first round.

Does the future look bright? Sure. Just hope the cap keeps going up and Sather controls himself in the future.

It wouldn't be a bad start to waive Rozsival and Voros and put $6 million back onto the cap.

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11-29-2009, 12:46 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t3hg00se View Post
I hate how this team is in it's current state, but then I remind myself; We have the 2nd best prospects in the league, we have the 2nd best young D in the league (behind probably the Kings imo), we have Henrik Lundqvist, we have Marian Gaborik.

This team is going to win a cup in the next 5 years, we can all safely bet on that. Even if a couple of our prospects complete and totally bust, we don't have room for all of them anyway.
This franchise has won one cup in 68 years. We are in the Eastern Conference which is chock full of young elite talent. What are you smoking?

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11-29-2009, 01:01 AM
  #5
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Our Defense sucks and these four are a part of it. These guys do not compliment each other at all. Okay, they're putting up decent numbers, but so what? They're soft as Charmin, and cannot play DEFENSE together.

We gotta shake this group up. These guys stink.


PS: Do any of our D prospects play a mean game? Hard hitting, tough, willing to fight, etc. If not, then we have even more of what we already have. We have 5 offensive defensemen and more coming up?? Is this true? Just awesome if so.

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11-29-2009, 01:12 AM
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a cup in the next 5 years is not beyond the realm of possibility. hardly a given, but with Gabby, Henrik, and our pool of prospects, I think we can contend sooner rather than later. The key here is to get rid of Redden (6.5), Rozsival(5), Kotalik(3) and Drury(7) and add 3 true blue elite players, all forwards.

Defense can be handled internally w/o a problem.

The real problem here is that most teams are locking up the stars to LONG term deals as soon as humanly possible. Aside from Kovalchuk who else is going to be available anytime soon? Plus to me Kovalchuk is a sure thing to re-up with the Thrashers.

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11-29-2009, 01:12 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theMessiah1194 View Post
Our Defense sucks and these four are a part of it. These guys do not compliment each other at all. Okay, they're putting up decent numbers, but so what? They're soft as Charmin, and cannot play DEFENSE together.

We gotta shake this group up. These guys stink.


PS: Do any of our D prospects play a mean game? Hard hitting, tough, willing to fight, etc. If not, then we have even more of what we already have. We have 5 offensive defensemen and more coming up?? Is this true? Just awesome if so.
oh boy...

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11-29-2009, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theMessiah1194 View Post
Our Defense sucks and these four are a part of it. These guys do not compliment each other at all. Okay, they're putting up decent numbers, but so what? They're soft as Charmin, and cannot play DEFENSE together.

We gotta shake this group up. These guys stink.


PS: Do any of our D prospects play a mean game? Hard hitting, tough, willing to fight, etc. If not, then we have even more of what we already have. We have 5 offensive defensemen and more coming up?? Is this true? Just awesome if so.
McD is a big, strong mother ****er who plays shut down.

If we split up McD in Staal, pairing them with say, Sanguinetti and Del Zotto, we will have 2 incredibly balanced pairs playing 80% of our games each night.

Also, these are kids, they aren't men. You can't possibly hope that at their age they'd be doing the roles that veterans should be doing. The heart and soul is there, you saw Gilroy the other night. In time my friend.

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11-29-2009, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t3hg00se View Post
McD is a big, strong mother ****er who plays shut down.

If we split up McD in Staal, pairing them with say, Sanguinetti and Del Zotto, we will have 2 incredibly balanced pairs playing 80% of our games each night.

Also, these are kids, they aren't men. You can't possibly hope that at their age they'd be doing the roles that veterans should be doing. The heart and soul is there, you saw Gilroy the other night. In time my friend.
Yep, the wealth we have right now on defense is staggering. You could easily see a team in 2 years where all 6 defenseman are kids who have only played for this organization.

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11-29-2009, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Yep, the wealth we have right now on defense is staggering. You could easily see a team in 2 years where all 6 defenseman are kids who have only played for this organization.
Oh absolutely, I think it's fantastic that this team is highly likely to have a completely home grown D-core.

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11-29-2009, 01:49 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
The key here is to get rid of Redden (6.5), Rozsival(5), Kotalik(3) and Drury(7) and add 3 true blue elite players, all forwards.
and the problem with these is that you would have to give something up in order to dump those contracts. I can't see a team willing taking most of these.

Drury- is basically immovable, as I can't think of 1 team that would want his contract. Only way to drop him is through Waivers, most likely.

Rozsival- is possible, but you wouldn't get much in return.

Redden- See Drury

Kotalik- Doing well offensively, but the -12 might hurt the value. I haven't seen alot of rangers games this year, so I can't say its because he struggles defensively.

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11-29-2009, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
a cup in the next 5 years is not beyond the realm of possibility. hardly a given, but with Gabby, Henrik, and our pool of prospects, I think we can contend sooner rather than later. The key here is to get rid of Redden (6.5), Rozsival(5), Kotalik(3) and Drury(7) and add 3 true blue elite players, all forwards.

Defense can be handled internally w/o a problem.

The real problem here is that most teams are locking up the stars to LONG term deals as soon as humanly possible. Aside from Kovalchuk who else is going to be available anytime soon? Plus to me Kovalchuk is a sure thing to re-up with the Thrashers.

+ 1

Great post and I agree with pretty much everything you said. We aren't going anywhere until we:
1. get rid of Redden, Rozsival and Drury. Kotalik I can live with.
2. add 2-3 legit top 6 players to help Gaborik. Key word being legit.


Oh while our defense is non existant right now, we dont need to add to it however because it's something that can be fixed internally. Del Zotto is 19, Sangs 21, Staal 22, Girardi 25 and Gilroy 25, we just need to let them develop and if most of these guys (plus guys like McDonagh and others) live up to their potential we should have a top-5 D in NHL.

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11-29-2009, 01:55 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by Skobel55 View Post
and the problem with these is that you would have to give something up in order to dump those contracts. I can't see a team willing taking most of these.

I can see someone taking a chance on Rozsival, not the other 2 however. Rozy and Drury are under contract for 2 more seasons after this one and I guess we could ride them out. Redden on the other hand is the 1 that could kill us, 4 more seasons after this one. Ouch.

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11-29-2009, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Skobel55 View Post
and the problem with these is that you would have to give something up in order to dump those contracts. I can't see a team willing taking most of these.

Drury- is basically immovable, as I can't think of 1 team that would want his contract. Only way to drop him is through Waivers, most likely.

Rozsival- is possible, but you wouldn't get much in return.

Redden- See Drury

Kotalik- Doing well offensively, but the -12 might hurt the value. I haven't seen alot of rangers games this year, so I can't say its because he struggles defensively.
Drury has 2 more years, were stuck with him till his contract runs out.

Rozsival i think is gone this deadline, maybe the offseason, but im almost positive we wont be seeing him this time next year.

Redden actually has some value imho, especially with how well hes played this year. Any objective Ranger fan will admit that Redden has been our best overall defenseman all year long. Hes not worth his contract, but I could see him being worth 4-5 mil based on his play this year, and thats not too far off from his number. I think it would have to be a pure salary dump, but i could see him being moved.

Kotalik has 2 years left, not a monstrous cap number, and can blast the puck, I think there are teams who could use him....he could be an integral part of a contending team.

but a lot of it has to do with the way Sather wants to make this team....lots of question marks there.

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11-29-2009, 02:32 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Drury has 2 more years, were stuck with him till his contract runs out.

Rozsival i think is gone this deadline, maybe the offseason, but im almost positive we wont be seeing him this time next year.

Redden actually has some value imho, especially with how well hes played this year. Any objective Ranger fan will admit that Redden has been our best overall defenseman all year long. Hes not worth his contract, but I could see him being worth 4-5 mil based on his play this year, and thats not too far off from his number. I think it would have to be a pure salary dump, but i could see him being moved.

Kotalik has 2 years left, not a monstrous cap number, and can blast the puck, I think there are teams who could use him....he could be an integral part of a contending team.

but a lot of it has to do with the way Sather wants to make this team....lots of question marks there.
Rozi should be moveable for teams near the cap floor because of the discrepancy between his salary paid and cap hit. Maybe not at the deadline but definitely this offseason. That'll help should a good player hit free agency.

I disagree with Redden being our best D-Man this year. Though I think he's been better this year, his transition game has been pretty terrible. In each zone, he's been okay but his first pass is brutal. Honestly, pairing him with Del Zotto and allowing the kid to make the first pass might not be a terrible idea. Either way, with his contract, I don't know how movable he is. Best option is that he pulls a Naslund and just retires. If someone took him in, I would do it immediately. Even if we lost a decent prospect to do it.

Kotalik is a bit overpaid but not too much. He also brings a heavy shot that no one else on our team brings. For someone who basically amounts to a PP specialist, 3 mil is expensive but at least he's useful. At most, we're only overpaying him around a mil. He's far from our biggest problem.

As far as Drury... Well, that was a terrible signing, now wasn't it?

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Old
11-29-2009, 07:34 PM
  #16
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Oh absolutely, I think it's fantastic that this team is highly likely to have a completely home grown D-core.
not a chance. Who's our GM again?

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11-29-2009, 07:40 PM
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Putting up stats is nice, but winning games is what matters. I don't know why Marc Staal scoring a goal in an 8-3 blowout yesterday looks any better at the end of the season when reviewing his cumulative stats then it did yesterday after taking into consideration how meaningless it was in relation to the outcome. I'd certainly take the Marc Staal we saw under Renney over the one we are seeing under Tardarella any day of the week. Same goes for those other guys. Del Zotto would probably be the one exception, as he has been excellent given the situation he is in, but it seems like a lot of the points the defense are scoring are coming at the expense of goals against.

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11-29-2009, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by LordStanleysMug View Post
Putting up stats is nice, but winning games is what matters. I don't know why Marc Staal scoring a goal in an 8-3 blowout yesterday looks any better at the end of the season when reviewing his cumulative stats then it did yesterday after taking into consideration how meaningless it was in relation to the outcome. I'd certainly take the Marc Staal we saw under Renney over the one we are seeing under Tardarella any day of the week. Same goes for those other guys. Del Zotto would probably be the one exception, as he has been excellent given the situation he is in, but it seems like a lot of the points the defense are scoring are coming at the expense of goals against.
Because you see all the goals scored by our defensemen last night was actually when it STILL mattered.

Staal scores to make it 1-0 Rangers.

Gilroy to make it 3-2 Penguins

Rosival 33 seconds into the 3rd period! to make it 4-3 Penguins.

After that though yea it was a blowout.

Also, we have three rookies on defense. Let me say that again, we have three rookies on defense. And two of the other three haven't even completed three years in the NHL and the other has gotten the nickname blowsival by the rangers fan's. Do you expect us to have defense equivalent to that of the cup winning devils?

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11-29-2009, 08:02 PM
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Because you see all the goals scored by our defensemen last night was actually when it STILL mattered.

Staal scores to make it 1-0 Rangers.

Gilroy to make it 3-2 Penguins

Rosival 33 seconds into the 3rd period! to make it 4-3 Penguins.

After that though yea it was a blowout.

Also, we have three rookies on defense. Let me say that again, we have three rookies on defense. And two of the other three haven't even completed three years in the NHL and the other has gotten the nickname blowsival by the rangers fan's. Do you expect us to have defense equivalent to that of the cup winning devils?
The thing I love is that it isnt just the fact that the Rangers have 3 rookie d-men in their lineup. It's the fact that they either look very good to not-out-of-place. It's one thing to have them in the line-up, it's another to integrate them properly and be successful, and the defense so far this season has been relatively successful for being so young.

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11-29-2009, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlundqvist30 View Post
Yes the Rangers have problems, we all know that.

Let's talk about a bright spot. Our four young defensemen have the following stats.

Marc Staal:
3 goals and 7 assists (10 points)
Matt Gilroy:
4 goals 2 assists (6 points)
Michael Del Zotto:
5 goals 11 assists (16 points)
Dan Girardi:
4 goals 5 assists (9 points)

That translates to these stats over the course of a full season.

Marc Staal: 9.46 goals and 22.08 assists (31.54 points)
Matt Gilroy: 12.62 goals and 6.31 assists (18.93 points)
Michael Del Zotto: 15.77 goals and 34.69 assists (50.46 points)
Dan Girardi: 12.62 goals and 15.77 assists (28.39 points)

Now I doubt that they continue at these paces. I don't see any of these guys reaching such projected stats, but barring tremendous drop-off in play they all will put in nice seasons offensively. For instance, even is Staal "regresses" to have a season total of 6 goals that would be GREAT production out of him and would be a HUGE leap from last year.

It's one thing to do the hypothetical, "look at our prospects and see what a future lineup could look like in an ideal situation." It's another when most of those hypothetical work out. We have 4 NHL defensemen as listed above, and Staal and Del Zotto can be top pairing. After that, if Sanguinetti isn't an NHL defenseman already then he's on the cusp of it, and McDonagh is perhaps a year away. How many teams can say they have 4 defensemen under the age of 24 that range from good to great along with 1 who will be, at worst, ready by training camp next year, and another who is well on his way to becoming an NHL defenseman? This isn't hypothetical, "if everything works out then we could have this..." type of thing. This is reality. We're in an unbelievable situation.
The defense is scoring. The forwards aren't. Just switch 'em. Problem solved.

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11-29-2009, 09:06 PM
  #21
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Its great that we're getting some scoring from the defense.

Of course, I'd like for them to be able to actually play defense too. That seems difficult under Torts....or maybe its just not important in his system.

Either way, its a problem.

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11-30-2009, 06:37 AM
  #22
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I find it interesting that Girardi has 9 points 4 goals not getting a second of pp time this season and genious Torts puts Rosie on the pp with 0 goals.
Girardi is not perfect and has his moments but the guy is smart and has a good shot and gets pucks to the net. would love to see him get a chance with the new guys that can actually win battles and get the puck when the d gets it in.

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11-30-2009, 07:06 AM
  #23
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The cup run starts in 2012. Go figure. I've actually pondered starting a "countdown until july 2012" thread.


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11-30-2009, 08:58 AM
  #24
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I would like to see Gilroy shoot more form the point, I think he has 12-15 goal potential this year...

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11-30-2009, 09:07 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
a cup in the next 5 years is not beyond the realm of possibility. hardly a given, but with Gabby, Henrik, and our pool of prospects, I think we can contend sooner rather than later. The key here is to get rid of Redden (6.5), Rozsival(5), Kotalik(3) and Drury(7) and add 3 true blue elite players, all forwards.

Defense can be handled internally w/o a problem.

The real problem here is that most teams are locking up the stars to LONG term deals as soon as humanly possible. Aside from Kovalchuk who else is going to be available anytime soon? Plus to me Kovalchuk is a sure thing to re-up with the Thrashers.
The Rangers luck - we finally rid ourselves of all the deadwood, Sather is fired and we have an insane season cruising at the top of the league in every category including points.

Only thing is, its December 2012. Oh well.


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