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ATD 12 Rene Lecavalier Semi-Final: 5 Nova Scotia Voyageurs vs. 6 Renfrew Millionaires

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Old
11-29-2009, 04:10 PM
  #1
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ATD 12 Rene Lecavalier Semi-Final: 5 Nova Scotia Voyageurs vs. 6 Renfrew Millionaires

NOVA SCOTIA VOYAGEURS

GM: Rzeznik
Coach: Jack Adams
Assistant Coach: Bun Cook

Rick Martin-Steve Yzerman (C)-Dino Ciccarelli
Dany Heatley-Doug Gilmour (A)-Cam Neely
Ray Getliffe-Dick Irvin, Sr.-Bob Nevin (A)
Adam Graves-Chris Drury-Gary Dornhoefer

Larry Robinson (A)-Jean-Guy Talbot
Ken Reardon-Ted Green
Alexander Gusev-Hamby Shore

Gump Worsley
John Ross Roach

Spares
Bob Dailey
Jozef Golonka

Minors
Dennis Maruk-Viktor Zhluktov-Ran McDonald
Garry Galley-Bob Murray
Miikka Kiprusoff

PP1: Heatley-Yzerman-Neely-Robinson-Shore
PP2: Martin-Gilmour-Ciccarelli-Reardon-Gusev

PK1: Getliffe-Nevin-Robinson-Talbot
PK2: Gilmour-Graves-Reardon-Green
PK3: Drury-Dornhoefer

VS


RENFREW MILLIONAIRES

GM: overpass
Coach: Billy Reay

Valeri Kharlamov - Sergei Fedorov - Rod Gilbert
Patrik Elias - Sidney Crosby - Ziggy Palffy
Bob Bourne - Keith Primeau - George Armstrong(C)
Simon Gagne - Vladimir Shadrin - Owen Nolan

Mark Howe - Alexei Kasatonov
Si Griffis(A) - Pat Egan
Mike Ramsey(A) - Teppo Numminen

Dominik Hasek
Jean-Sebastien Giguere

Spares
Alf Skinner
Bruce MacGregor
Fredrik Olausson

Minors
Sergei Kapustin - Pavol Demitra - Barney Stanley
Darryl Sydor - Chris Phillips
Dan Bouchard

Power Play Units
Kharlamov-Primeau-Crosby
Howe-Fedorov

Gilbert-Nolan-Palffy
Griffis-Egan

Penalty Kill Units
Howe-Fedorov
Ramsey-Kasatonov
Hasek

Bourne-Shadrin
Griffis-Numminen
Hasek

Primeau-Armstrong

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11-29-2009, 11:13 PM
  #2
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This should be an interesting series, matching up a pair of teams that have already fought to a tough upset. Good luck, Rzeznik, may the best team win.

I'll start with a couple of areas that I feel are a major advantage for Renfrew. First, as in the last series, Dominik Hasek is a far better goaltender than his counterpart.

Second, Kharlamov-Fedorov-Gilbert is a far better first line than Martin-Yzerman-Ciccarelli, especially at even strength (as both lines get split up on the power play). Honestly, I'm not a fan of Nova Scotia's first line at all, and I'll go into a bit more detail on this.

Martin and Ciccarelli are both fairly one-dimensional players. Martin starred on the French Connection line in Buffalo - but that line had surprisingly poor plus-minuses, especially compared to their teammates.

Buffalo Sabres forwards at even strength - 1973-74 to 1979-80

Player Sum of GP ESGF/80 ESGA/80 EV+/-(80)
Craig Ramsay 558 72 45 27
Danny Gare 416 82 46 36
Don Luce 549 74 48 26
Gilbert Perreault 521 85 68 17
Rick Martin 510 83 72 11
Rene Robert 437 79 66 13
ESGF=even strength goals for, ESGA= ESG against, EV+/- is plus-minus with shorthanded goals for and against removed. All stats per 80 games.

On a defensively suspect line, Martin was the worst defensive player, both by the numbers and by reputation. For what it's worth, I've also seen a couple of Sabres games with Martin and was very unimpressed by his play without the puck - he appeared to just wave his stick at opponents as they skated by. Granted, two games isn't much to go on, and the contrast may have been more glaring when compared to the excellent play of teammate Craig Ramsay, but that's what I saw. Anyone who saw more of Martin can correct me if I'm wrong.

So Martin isn't much defensively - but that's not the end of the world, a line can have one of those players. However, linemate Dino Ciccarelli isn't much defensively either. Dino's a slow skater who isn't a big fan of backchecking. Here's a stat that supports this: Since playoff plus-minus was tracked, starting in 1984, Dino's -37 in 109 games is second worst among all players.

Furthermore, neither Ciccarelli nor Martin was much of a puck-carrier in transition - both were typically the third best in this area on their respective lines in real life.

Whoever plays with these guys is going to have to do a ton, in backchecking, in his own zone, and in breaking the puck out. Is Steve Yzerman up to it? All respect to the captain, but I'm not sure he is. Young Yzerman put up huge scoring numbers, but did so as a star on a bad team. He got tons of ice time, the best ice time, and didn't have much defensive responsibility. He certainly won't have those luxuries here. In 1995 his minutes were cut down and he started playing more defensively. He played very well defensively in this role - but he was no longer a top scorer.

If you want the defensively responsible Yzerman, prepare to take a massive hit in scoring.
  • From 1995 on, the highest Yzerman finished in even strength points was 16th in 1996-97
  • From 1995 to 2001-02 - Yzerman's best regular season years defensively - Yzerman scored 311 points in 547 games at even strength. That's 0.57 ESP/G. Over the same years, my third line centre, Keith Primeau, scored 291 points in 522 games at even strength. That's 0.56 ESP/G.
  • Yzerman won't get much help from his wingers defensively or in transition, as discussed before. As he carries his heavy load, his offensive game will suffer.

In comparison, my first line is far better in transition and defensively. Sergei Fedorov is excellent at both. Kharlamov and Gilbert are both also superb in transition, and are fine defensively. Kharlamov was a responsible defensive player in Tarasov's system, and was used in a defensive role by Tikhonov later in his career. While Gilbert isn't anything special defensively, he shows up.

While I'm comfortable playing any of my lines or pairings against Nova Scotia's first line, I'll look to match up first lines against first lines where possible. I expect to win this matchup.

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11-29-2009, 11:35 PM
  #3
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I'd like to see evidence of Kharlamov being a defensive guy. That is a very bold claim to me, as I have NEVER seen a single quote of him mentioning anything of defensive play.

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11-30-2009, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
I'd like to see evidence of Kharlamov being a defensive guy. That is a very bold claim to me, as I have NEVER seen a single quote of him mentioning anything of defensive play.
First, I am not claiming that Kharlamov will shut anyone down. I am saying that he will be defensively responsible. For wingers, often half the job defensively is just showing up, getting to your spot, and doing your job, and I think Kharlamov will do that.

In support of that, consider that Kharlamov was a favourite of Tarasov, who spoke very highly of him, Tarasov considered him his best player and the smartest player he ever coached. Kharlamov starred in the Soviet system of the 1970s where team play was valued very highly. There weren't any Bobrovs or Bures playing there - you had to play as a team.

I also came across a quote recently that stated that Tikhonov played Kharlamov in a checking role after he became coach. Unfortunately I didn't write down the source, as I was researching someone else at the time, but I'll post it if I find it. I'm not saying that makes him a great defensive player - a lot of offensive players move into checking roles later in their career. However, it does suggest he wasn't a defensive zero.

I'm not trying to push Kharlamov as a defensive star or anything, but it is fairly important to me that all of my players are able to play in their own end when necessary, and I believe Kharlamov can do so.

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11-30-2009, 12:40 AM
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The fact that Kharlamov's MVP record is better than his scoring record, despite the lack of physical play is circumstantial evidence that he was probably quite good at both ends of the rink.

I would really love it if overpass found that quote he's talking about, and not just for the ATD.

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11-30-2009, 12:44 AM
  #6
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The fact that Kharlamov's MVP record is better than his scoring record, despite the lack of physical play is circumstantial evidence that he was probably quite good at both ends of the rink.

I would really love it if overpass found that quote he's talking about, and not just for the ATD.
I'd certainly be interested in some concrete evidence of him being good in his own zone as well.

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11-30-2009, 10:50 AM
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Kharlamov - Fedorov is a sick combination. I wish I could see them play..
This would be one hell of a series in real-life, Yzerman vs. Fedorov would be really interesting matchup

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11-30-2009, 12:40 PM
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More on Nova Scotia's forwards

I'm not a fan of the top line, but I have to admit Nova Scotia's second line is terrific. Gilmour-Neely is a great pair. I'm a Sens fan, so I don't like Dany Heatley at all, but he's in a good situation here.

A line with Gilmour and Neely should be good at possession, keeping the puck in their opponent's end, and creating scoring opportunities. Heatley can take advantage of that, as the one thing he does very well is convert scoring opportunities, and Neely is also a high percentage scorer.

Renfrew will match up our third line against this line at every opportunity. Bourne, Primeau, and Armstrong will take away space in the defensive zone and make it hard to maintain possession. Primeau can match Gilmour on faceoffs. Also, our left defenders are well suited to match up against Neely down low. Ramsey and Griffis have all the size, strength, mobility, and defensive ability you could want, and Mark Howe is pretty good defensively as well.

If there's one drawback about Nova Scotia's second line, it's that the wings aren't that quick in transition, like the first line. I think Renfrew can exploit that with superior team speed.

Getliffe-Irvin-Nevin is a solid line. I don't really see Irvin as a shutdown centre, but maybe he can play in defensive situations.

Graves-Drury-Dornhoefer is also solid. As with the top lines, there is a lack of speed here, especially on the wings. These guys can play well in either zone. But with their lack of speed, they may end up playing well in their own zone more often than not.

Nova Scotia's defense corps is pretty solid. Larry Robinson is just terrific. But I do have a couple of questions. First, can the second pairing of Reardon-Green keep up with the speed of Renfrew's forwards? Second, Hamby Shore may have trouble containing our bigger forwards, especially our third line. He was one of the lightest defenders in his day at only 150 pounds.

I also think Nova Scotia's forwards on the penalty kill are not a strength. Nevin was only a depth penalty killer for Toronto, and was a second-tier penalty killer in his day at best. Not bad, but not necessarily ATD-first-unit good. Also, neither Getliffe nor Nevin is a centre, so faceoffs will not be a strength. The lack of speed on the forward unit as a whole hurts Nova Scotia in depth of penalty killing units as well. I expect Renfrew's power play to gain the zone easily and maintain possession well, especially with Howe and Fedorov on the back end. Larry Robinson and Talbot are very strong in front of the net, but I expect Primeau to keep them occupied there and create space for the skilled players.


Last edited by overpass: 11-30-2009 at 12:48 PM.
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11-30-2009, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The fact that Kharlamov's MVP record is better than his scoring record, despite the lack of physical play is circumstantial evidence that he was probably quite good at both ends of the rink.

I would really love it if overpass found that quote he's talking about, and not just for the ATD.
Here's the quote. From the Globe and Mail preview for the Challenge Cup on February 3, 1979, by Donald Ramsay. This is a scouting report provided by Derek Holmes, technical director of Hockey Canada, who prepared a scouting report on the Soviet teams for Scotty Bowman and had watched most of the Soviet players 40 to 50 times.

"Valeri Kharlamov - Less offensive-oriented than he has ever been, Tikhonov has turned him into a defensive type of forward, but he still sets up a beautiful play."


Last edited by overpass: 11-30-2009 at 01:50 PM.
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11-30-2009, 01:36 PM
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Very well, I can accept that Kharlamov may have been average to above average defensively at best. Any higher and I'm docking points on offense though, just like I would for Yzerman.

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11-30-2009, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Very well, I can accept that Kharlamov may have been average to above average defensively at best. Any higher and I'm docking points on offense though, just like I would for Yzerman.
Fair enough, that's how I see it as well.

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11-30-2009, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
"Valeri Kharlamov - Less offensive-oriented than he has ever been, Tikhonov has turned him into a defensive type of forward, but he still sets up a beautiful play."
It should be noted that this was three years after Kharlamov's athletic peak had passed him by in the wake of the first car crash. By 1979, he was no longer the feared scorer that he'd once been - not even close, in fact. You're cutting yourself on the same sword with which you've attacked Steve Yzerman, overpass.

I am the original author of the analysis of Soviet League MVP voting vs. scoring, and my conclusion was that the exclusion of the 2nd assist in league scoring was likely the primary reason for the disconnect between the MVP and scoring records of both Kharlamov and Maltsev, both of whom were known as great playmakers and who have extremely similar comparative stats over their careers. Kharlamov was certainly great in terms of puck control and that, alone, has a certain defensive value attached to it, but I don't think he can fairly be called anything more than average defensively in the grand scheme of things. Just because he's not a floater doesn't mean he's a plus checker, unless of course you want the "old Kharlamov" skating for your team.

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11-30-2009, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
It should be noted that this was three years after Kharlamov's athletic peak had passed him by in the wake of the first car crash. By 1979, he was no longer the feared scorer that he'd once been - not even close, in fact. You're cutting yourself on the same sword with which you've attacked Steve Yzerman, overpass.

I am the original author of the analysis of Soviet League MVP voting vs. scoring, and my conclusion was that the exclusion of the 2nd assist in league scoring was likely the primary reason for the disconnect between the MVP and scoring records of both Kharlamov and Maltsev, both of whom were known as great playmakers and who have extremely similar comparative stats over their careers. Kharlamov was certainly great in terms of puck control and that, alone, has a certain defensive value attached to it, but I don't think he can fairly be called anything more than average defensively in the grand scheme of things. Just because he's not a floater doesn't mean he's a plus checker, unless of course you want the "old Kharlamov" skating for your team.
Yeah, this is exactly why I'm willing to call Kharlamov anything more than average defensively if overpass chooses, but his offense takes a hit in the process.

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11-30-2009, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
It should be noted that this was three years after Kharlamov's athletic peak had passed him by in the wake of the first car crash. By 1979, he was no longer the feared scorer that he'd once been - not even close, in fact. You're cutting yourself on the same sword with which you've attacked Steve Yzerman, overpass.

I am the original author of the analysis of Soviet League MVP voting vs. scoring, and my conclusion was that the exclusion of the 2nd assist in league scoring was likely the primary reason for the disconnect between the MVP and scoring records of both Kharlamov and Maltsev, both of whom were known as great playmakers and who have extremely similar comparative stats over their careers. Kharlamov was certainly great in terms of puck control and that, alone, has a certain defensive value attached to it, but I don't think he can fairly be called anything more than average defensively in the grand scheme of things. Just because he's not a floater doesn't mean he's a plus checker, unless of course you want the "old Kharlamov" skating for your team.
Yes, it is a similar situation to Yzerman. But I'm fine with Kharlamov being average defensively.

The reason I'm attacking Yzerman and promoting Kharlamov is expectations. Nobody expects anything of Kharlamov defensively, and Yzerman has the reputation as a great offensive player and a great defensive player. But Yzerman's in a situation where he has to be a great offensive player and a great defensive player simultaneously. He can't do that. Kharlamov just has to do what he did at his best.

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11-30-2009, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Yes, it is a similar situation to Yzerman. But I'm fine with Kharlamov being average defensively.

The reason I'm attacking Yzerman and promoting Kharlamov is expectations. Nobody expects anything of Kharlamov defensively, and Yzerman has the reputation as a great offensive player and a great defensive player. But Yzerman's in a situation where he has to be a great offensive player and a great defensive player simultaneously. He can't do that. Kharlamov just has to do what he did at his best.
Very true.

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11-30-2009, 10:49 PM
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I showed earlier that Yzerman was not a top offensive player from 1995 on. Obviously he was a top offensive player before that point, but what about his defensive game?

Here are the stats for the top forwards in even strength goals against from 1988 to 1994. All numbers other than GP are per 80 games.

Rank Player GP ESP ESGF ESGA R-ON R-OFF
1 Wayne Gretzky 493 90 112 98 1.14 1.07
2 Mario Lemieux 384 98 119 85 1.39 0.94
3 Steve Yzerman 524 78 96 82 1.17 1.12
4 Joe Sakic 461 58 70 81 0.86 0.78
5 Mark Recchi 415 62 82 80 1.02 0.96
6 Kevin Stevens 431 57 83 79 1.06 1.07
7 Luc Robitaille 561 66 87 76 1.14 0.96
8 Pat Lafontaine 460 64 82 74 1.10 0.93
9 Adam Oates 514 67 90 74 1.20 1.04
10 Dino Ciccarelli 503 53 72 73 0.99 1.10
ESP=even strength points, ESGF=even strength goals for, ESGA=even strength goals against.
R-ON is the goal ratio GF/GA when the player is on the ice, R-OFF is the goal ratio while the player is off the ice.


Gretzky and Lemieux are 1-2 in ESGA. Both were likely 1-2 in minutes played as well, so this isn't too surprising. They also had the scoring numbers to match, especially Lemieux.

Yzerman is third in goals against. This could be because he was playing more minutes than anyone else or because he wasn't taking care of his own end. I suspect big minutes are the main reason. But either way, Yzerman's going to have to do the defensive work on his line and he's not going to play as many minutes as he got on those Detroit teams, so his scoring will drop.

Also note that Yzerman's team's goal ratio was very similar whether he was on or off the ice, unlike several other players on this list. This suggests that Yzerman wasn't a major contributor towards outscoring the other team, or at least not as much as some of the other players on this list.

Finally, I extended the table to 10 players for a reason...Dino Ciccarelli had better even strength numbers earlier in his career while in Minnesota, but at this point in his career he wasn't helping his team at 5-on-5. He's by far the weakest scorer in this group, and his team had more success with him on the bench than on the ice over this time period.

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12-01-2009, 12:10 AM
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I just wanted to touch on different points you made over the past day overpass. I'll give my own analysis tomorrow night.

Quote:
'll start with a couple of areas that I feel are a major advantage for Renfrew. First, as in the last series, Dominik Hasek is a far better goaltender than his counterpart.
Quite clearly true. Nothing more needs to be said on the goalie front.

Quote:
Second, Kharlamov-Fedorov-Gilbert is a far better first line than Martin-Yzerman-Ciccarelli, especially at even strength (as both lines get split up on the power play). Honestly, I'm not a fan of Nova Scotia's first line at all, and I'll go into a bit more detail on this.

Martin and Ciccarelli are both fairly one-dimensional players. Martin starred on the French Connection line in Buffalo - but that line had surprisingly poor plus-minuses, especially compared to their teammates.
I'm not going to argue that Renfrew's line isn't a better line than mine, as that would be about as bias as it gets. But what I will say is that I believe that my lines defensive "struggles" are being overblown. Yzerman while in his offensive prime may have been a bit shaky in his own zone, but with the amount of time the guy was controlling the puck, and in the opposing zone, he didn't have to be. He will be playing better players here, especially in away games against Fedorov's line. However, with home ice advantage, he'll be playing against lines that are average offensively in an ATD context, so he won't have as much of a defensive load in these games. Ciccarelli was known as a lazy back-checker, yes, but he's the cornerman of the line. He's out there to throw his weight around and win pucks, which is what he will do. Martin does get a bad reputation defensively, but this quote from Martin via Joe Pelletier sheds a little light on how hard he worked behind the scenes.

Don't mistake Martin as a one trick pony. His two way game was always overshadowed and over criticized.

"I worked on the defensive part of my game for quite some time. I thought by the time Punch left the team (78-79) I was playing good two-way hockey for the team. But my critics didn't see it that way. I guess that I was never supposed to be in the mold of a two-way hockey player according to them," Martin recalled.


Now this is only one quote, but it's straight from the horses mouth. He may not be great positionally, but he's obviously very coachable defensively, and Adams and Cook will have him working hard both ways. I'd put him on par with Gilbert, but that's just my opinion. On top of all this, our squad has a very underrated group of defensive defenders, which in my opinion will more than make up for our first line's lack of defense.

Quote:
Furthermore, neither Ciccarelli nor Martin was much of a puck-carrier in transition - both were typically the third best in this area on their respective lines in real life.
While Ciccarelli is never going to be mistaken as a puck-carrier in an ATD context, I disagree about Martin in this regard. Both him and Stevie Y have a lot of speed to burn, and Martin was a more than capable puck-handler, and was not at all lacking in the transition game. Saying that he was the third-best puck carrier on his line is a bit of a stretch too. He's obviously not Gilbert Perreault, but I would safely take Martin over Robert when it comes to handling the puck. Nothing really needs to be said about Yzerman. In his prime, he could lug the puck as good as anyone. Don't know how you can disagree with that.

Quote:
Getliffe-Irvin-Nevin is a solid line. I don't really see Irvin as a shutdown centre, but maybe he can play in defensive situations
As you said, Irvin isn't a shutdown centre. I'm not trying to sell him as one. What he is though, is a very capable two-way player, with two very good defensive players on his wings. One of the more underrated lines in this thing, I think.

Quote:
First, can the second pairing of Reardon-Green keep up with the speed of Renfrew's forwards? Second, Hamby Shore may have trouble containing our bigger forwards, especially our third line. He was one of the lightest defenders in his day at only 150 pounds.
To answer your first question, I believe they can answer the bell against Renfrew's forwards. Reardon was known as a pretty ugly skater, but he did 5 all-star teams in 5 years (2 first, 3 second), mainly as a defensive defenseman. Judging by this, he must've been either a pretty fine positional player, or a better skater than he was given credit for. I'd say a bit of both. Green was known as a beast in his own zone, all while not taking chances offensively. Together these two will be fine against Renfrew's forwards, and should do some damage against the small top-two lines.

Shore, although small, was known for playing a solid, hard defensive game to go along with his wonderful offensive touch. Just check out seventies bio for him from the past MLD. It sold me on him, it may do the trick for you as well.

Quote:
Also, neither Getliffe nor Nevin is a centre, so faceoffs will not be a strength. The lack of speed on the forward unit as a whole hurts Nova Scotia in depth of penalty killing units as well.
Getliffe was a centre just as much as he was a winger. He is more than capable on faceoffs. He was also known as one of the fastest players of his time. Speed won't be an issue on our top unit. Gilmour and Graves both have decent speed as well, enough especially to keep up with Renfrew's slower second unit. Drury and Dornhoefer will strictly see time against the second unit, as both aren't great skaters. However, Drury is fantastic positionally, and Dorny is as hard a worker as they come, so this shouldn't be a problem.

That's all for now. Any other points I missed, I'll touch on in my review tomorrow.

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12-01-2009, 12:18 AM
  #18
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Shore, although small, was known for playing a solid, hard defensive game to go along with his wonderful offensive touch. Just check out seventies bio for him from the past MLD. It sold me on him, it may do the trick for you as well.
If you can't beat him.... draft him!

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12-01-2009, 01:22 AM
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Shore, although small, was known for playing a solid, hard defensive game to go along with his wonderful offensive touch. Just check out seventies bio for him from the past MLD. It sold me on him, it may do the trick for you as well.
I checked it out, thanks for the pointer. But if I'm sold on Hamby Shore, it won't be until this series is over

I notice that Shore was listed at 175 pounds in seventies' bio. Here's my source for his weight. The Toronto Star on March 21, 1911 had a piece on the champion Ottawa team, with short player bios. Here's Hamby Shore:

" Hamby Shore, cover-point, is 26 years of age and has been playing senior hockey since he was 18. Shore became a cover-point last year, and was one of this sensations this season of the Canadian league. Shore weighs about 150, being the lightest defence man in the N.H.A. He is an Ottawa boy and first came into prominence as a member of the Beaver Hockey Club of the City League."

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Getliffe was a centre just as much as he was a winger.
OK, now that you mention it I realize you're right on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rzeznik View Post
That's all for now. Any other points I missed, I'll touch on in my review tomorrow.
I look forward to it.


Last edited by overpass: 12-01-2009 at 09:45 PM.
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12-01-2009, 02:22 AM
  #20
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At 26 years of age, he may not have completely filled out yet.

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12-01-2009, 05:40 AM
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Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I showed earlier that Yzerman was not a top offensive player from 1995 on. Obviously he was a top offensive player before that point, but what about his defensive game?

Here are the stats for the top forwards in even strength goals against from 1988 to 1994. All numbers other than GP are per 80 games.

Rank Player GP ESP ESGF ESGA R-ON R-OFF
1 Wayne Gretzky 493 90 112 98 1.14 1.07
2 Mario Lemieux 384 98 119 85 1.39 0.94
3 Steve Yzerman 524 78 96 82 1.17 1.12
4 Joe Sakic 461 58 70 81 0.86 0.78
5 Mark Recchi 415 62 82 80 1.02 0.96
6 Kevin Stevens 431 57 83 79 1.06 1.07
7 Luc Robitaille 561 66 87 76 1.14 0.96
8 Pat Lafontaine 460 64 82 74 1.10 0.93
9 Adam Oates 514 67 90 74 1.20 1.04
10 Dino Ciccarelli 503 53 72 73 0.99 1.10
ESP=even strength points, ESGF=even strength goals for, ESGA=even strength goals against.
R-ON is the goal ratio GF/GA when the player is on the ice, R-OFF is the goal ratio while the player is off the ice.


Gretzky and Lemieux are 1-2 in ESGA. Both were likely 1-2 in minutes played as well, so this isn't too surprising. They also had the scoring numbers to match, especially Lemieux.

Yzerman is third in goals against. This could be because he was playing more minutes than anyone else or because he wasn't taking care of his own end. I suspect big minutes are the main reason. But either way, Yzerman's going to have to do the defensive work on his line and he's not going to play as many minutes as he got on those Detroit teams, so his scoring will drop.

Also note that Yzerman's team's goal ratio was very similar whether he was on or off the ice, unlike several other players on this list. This suggests that Yzerman wasn't a major contributor towards outscoring the other team, or at least not as much as some of the other players on this list.

Finally, I extended the table to 10 players for a reason...Dino Ciccarelli had better even strength numbers earlier in his career while in Minnesota, but at this point in his career he wasn't helping his team at 5-on-5. He's by far the weakest scorer in this group, and his team had more success with him on the bench than on the ice over this time period.
Good stuff overpass.

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12-01-2009, 09:57 AM
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seventieslord
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My sources for Shore's weight are SIHR and hockey-reference.com. Not saying that they are automatically more valid, but just wanted to point out that I didn't conure it out of thin air, or exaggerate it (nobody accused me of this of course)

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12-01-2009, 10:54 AM
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overpass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
My sources for Shore's weight are SIHR and hockey-reference.com. Not saying that they are automatically more valid, but just wanted to point out that I didn't conure it out of thin air, or exaggerate it (nobody accused me of this of course)
Good to know. Of course, with weight, both could be right...it's not unknown for someone to gain 25 pounds in his late 20s and 30s.

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12-01-2009, 12:35 PM
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For me, the key matchup in the series is Renfrew's scoring lines vs. the top defense pairing of Nova Scotia.

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12-01-2009, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
For me, the key matchup in the series is Renfrew's scoring lines vs. the top defense pairing of Nova Scotia.
Yes, that will be important - one of Renfrew's strengths against one of Nova Scotia's strengths. I'm not going to knock Robinson-Talbot - Robinson is terrific, one of the greatest defenders of all-time, especially at even strength. Talbot can play on a top pairing.

But I think I may have some relative advantages. First, Larry Robinson is playing on the left side, correct? Then it's Talbot going against Kharlamov. Nothing against Talbot, but that's a mismatch.

Renfrew will be better in open ice with Kharlamov and Fedorov flying, Nova Scotia will be better down low in the corners, especially Robinson and Talbot against my wingers. But my centres are both very good down low and in the corners as well. I also think Nova Scotia's wingers aren't the best for defensive support, which makes it a little harder for them to win and clear the puck.

I've touched on this before, but here are the matchups I'm looking for. Forwards - 1st line against their 1st, 3rd line against their 2nd. Defence - the only thing I'm looking for is that I'd prefer Griffis or Ramsey against Neely, but I don't plan to cut my top pairing's ice time for that.

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