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ATD 12 Rene Lecavalier Semi-Final: 1 Detroit Falcons vs 7 Hamilton Bettmans

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Old
11-29-2009, 04:06 PM
  #1
God Bless Canada
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ATD 12 Rene Lecavalier Semi-Final: 1 Detroit Falcons vs 7 Hamilton Bettmans

DETROIT FALCONS

GM: EagleBelfour
Coach: Herb Brooks
Assistant Coach:Father David Bauer

Woody Dumart - Milt Schmidt (C) - Bobby Bauer
Roy Conacher - Duke Keats (A) - Harry Hyland
Harry P. Watson - Phil Goyette - Bobby Rousseau
Ed Sandford - Buddy O'Connor - Harry Oliver

Bill Quackenbush - Jimmy Thomson (A)
Lionel Conacher (A) - Cyclone Wentworth
Art Duncan - Bucko McDonald

Terry Sawchuk
Mike Karakas

Reggie Fleming (LW/D)
Wally Hergesheimer (RW)

Powerplay:
Woody Dumart - Milt Schmidt - Bobby Bauer
Bill Quackenbush - Lionel Conacher

Roy Conacher - Duke Keats - Harry Hyland
Jimmy Thomson - Bobby Rousseau

Harry Watson - Buddy O'Connor - Harry Oliver
Art Duncan - Cy Wentworth

Penalty Kill:
Milt Schmidt - Woody Dumart
Cy Wentworth - Jimmy Thomson

Phil Goyette - Bobby Rousseau
Bill Quackenbush - Bucko McDonald

Buddy O'Connor - Harry Watson
Art Duncan - Lionel Conacher


Call-Ups:
Dubbie Kerr - Herb Carnegie - Art Gagne
Vasili Pervukhin - Steamer Maxwell
Bert Lindsay


VS

HAMILTON BETTMANS

GMs: Dreakmur and Johnny Engine
Coach: Don Cherry
Assistant Coach: Roger Neilson

Vladimir Krutov - Mario Lemieux - Hooley Smith
Tommy Smith - Darryl Sittler - Billy Boucher
Tommy Phillips - Art Chapman - Blair Russell
Percy Galbraith - Red Berenson - Mush Marsh

Valeri Vasiliev - Moose Johnson
Jan Suchy - Red Dutton
Bert Corbeau - Dunc Munro

Clint Benedict
Tom Paton

Extras: Corb Denenny, Jack Campbell

Powerplay
Unit #1: Vladimir Krutov - Mario Lemieux - Hooley Smith - Jan Suchy - Bert Corbeau
Unit #2: Tommy Smith - Darryl Sittler - Tommy Phillips - Valery Vasiliev - Moose Johnson

Penalty Kill
Unit #1: Hooley Smith - Tommy Phillips - Valery Vasiliev - Moose Johnson
Unit #2: Art Chapman - Blair Russel - Dunc Munro - Red Dutton
Unit #3: Red Berenson - Percy Galbraith

Shut-down Unit: Tommy Phillips - Art Chapman - Blair Russel - Valery Vasiliev - Moose Johnson

Minor League Team:
Phoenix Balsillies

Clare McKerrow - Cully Wilson
Jim Riley - Niklas Backstrom
Bobby Trapp - Jim McKenny

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Old
11-29-2009, 08:32 PM
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I'm very glad to see Hamilton advance. I think they win this series as well.

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11-29-2009, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
I'm very glad to see Hamilton advance. I think they win this series as well.
I disagree completely. Lemieux is the best player in the series & one of my all time favorites but the Falcons are a much much better team. I see the falcons winning in a short sereies.

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11-29-2009, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I disagree completely. Lemieux is the best player in the series & one of my all time favorites but the Falcons are a much much better team. I see the falcons winning in a short sereies.
Calling them a much, much better team is stretching it I think. Hamilton has some great pieces here that could spell an upset.

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11-29-2009, 09:15 PM
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Hamilton pulled off an incredible upset in the first round; a deserving one of my eyes. But can they do the same here, with their goaltending advantage neutralised? We'll see.

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11-29-2009, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Calling them a much, much better team is stretching it I think. Hamilton has some great pieces here that could spell an upset.
Explain. I think that Detroit is better in every aspect-forwards, defence, goaltending. this, IMO. is a mismatch.

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11-29-2009, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Explain. I think that Detroit is better in every aspect-forwards, defence, goaltending. this, IMO. is a mismatch.
I am very high on Jan Suchy and Moose Johnson, as well as Hamilton's 3rd line. There is no obvious advantage for anybody on defense, except perhaps Lionel Conacher on the 2nd pairing, which is pretty absurd. I'm not saying Detroit isn't better, I AM saying that Hamilton can put up a good fight here.

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11-29-2009, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
I am very high on Jan Suchy and Moose Johnson, as well as Hamilton's 3rd line. There is no obvious advantage for anybody on defense, except perhaps Lionel Conacher on the 2nd pairing, which is pretty absurd. I'm not saying Detroit isn't better, I AM saying that Hamilton can put up a good fight here.
I think Hamilton's defence corps is head and shoulders above Detroit. Vasiliev is the best d-man in the series by a considerable amount. Johnson is as good as Quackenbush and Conacher. Suchy is the best offensive d-men in the series. The bottom 3 is close, but slightly favours Hamilton IMO.

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11-29-2009, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I think Hamilton's defence corps is head and shoulders above Detroit. Vasiliev is the best d-man in the series by a considerable amount. Johnson is as good as Quackenbush and Conacher. Suchy is the best offensive d-men in the series. The bottom 3 is close, but slightly favours Hamilton IMO.
Hamilton also has the best line in the series. Krutov - Lemieux - Smith is very good. While goaltending also isn't an advantage for them, it certainly isn't a weakness either. Both teams will need to convince me why they should win this series, because at this point, I don't know.

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11-29-2009, 09:33 PM
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pappyline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
I am very high on Jan Suchy and Moose Johnson, as well as Hamilton's 3rd line. There is no obvious advantage for anybody on defense, except perhaps Lionel Conacher on the 2nd pairing, which is pretty absurd. I'm not saying Detroit isn't better, I AM saying that Hamilton can put up a good fight here.
I am not going to comment farther but I just see the Falcons so much deeper at every position. Not imptrssed with Suchy & Johnson & like detroit;s 4rd lene better than hamilton's.

That's why this whole thing is a crapshoot, we all have our preferences.

I will bow out now & let the participants fight it out.

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11-29-2009, 09:39 PM
  #11
jarek
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I am not going to comment farther but I just see the Falcons so much deeper at every position. Not imptrssed with Suchy & Johnson & like detroit;s 4rd lene better than hamilton's.

That's why this whole thing is a crapshoot, we all have our preferences.

I will bow out now & let the participants fight it out.
Ah, well if you don't like Suchy and Johnson, then that's why you don't like the defense as well.

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11-29-2009, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Ah, well if you don't like Suchy and Johnson, then that's why you don't like the defense as well.
IMO, Quackenbush, thomson, & cinacher are all better.

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11-29-2009, 09:52 PM
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IMO, Quackenbush, thomson, & cinacher are all better.
It'll be up to Dreak and Johnny Engine to convince you otherwise..

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11-30-2009, 12:07 AM
  #14
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First of all, congratulation on the Hamilton Bettmans on their fine victory against the Nanaimo Clippers, and hope them the best of luck in this series. The Bettmans are definitely one of the strongest 7th seed ever in the ATD, but I still think I've got the better team, and that the Detroit Falcons will win this series. I'll try to be as objective as possible in my analysis.

1st line: Advantage Hamilton Bettmans

It's pretty difficult to have Mario Lemieux as your first line center and not having a great line. I think you've accomplished a good job in reuniting Lemieux with two ''non-elite'' players. Hooley Smith is a fantastic playmaker and a good all-around performer. He's a great match to Lemieux, who will definitely be running the show on that line. As you know, I think you're overrating Vladimir Krutov when you put him with the Michel Goulet's, Reg Noble's and Sid Smith's tier ... he's definitely a tier below them and definitely a weak link for a first line. Still, it's an interesting mix of players, and I'll be honest although I dislike Krutov's role on that line Lemieux and Smith will mesh together very well.

On my part, although I give you the node on that first line, The Krauts should be able to contain that first line ... well as much as containing Mario Lemieux is possible. What I mean is that Milt Schmidt is probably the worst nightmare Lemieux could ever face. Milt Schmidt got the speed, pure strength and defensive abilities to give Lemieux some headache. To add some more, Woody Dumart, one of the best two-way forward of the Original-Six ERA, will help Schmidt in his task to contain Super Mario. I'm hoping Bobby Bauer will use his speed and offensive talent to score a goal once in a while, but it's clear that when The Krauts face the Lemieux's line, they are there to contain them, and perhaps score a couple of goals of the turnovers.

2nd line: Advantage Detroit Falcons

This is as big a a mismatch as you will see in this series. Although Darryl Sittler could thrive as a second liner under Mario Lemieux, both wingers are miscast on their role, especially Billy Boucher on the RW. Boucher credentials as a goalscorer is very underwhelming for a second liner, and would look much greater on a fourth line. On the other hand, I would not like to have Tommy Smith as my second liner, but I think I could buy it. He was a great offensive force in the 1910's and he was the best player in the NHA in 1914 and 1915. But, did he played a lot on the left wings? I don't know I always saw him as a center, maybe you could enlighten me a little on this.

The Detroit's second line is a very dangerous line with one of the greatest goalscorer of their respective ERA in Roy Conacher and Harry Hyland and one of the best playmaker of his ERA in Duke Keats. Duke Keats and his extraordinary playmaking abilities will feed passes to both speedster on the wings with deadly goalscoring abilities. I was already vocal to the fact that I think Duke Keats is just as good of a player than Darryl Sittler, so I think it's a line that mesh very well and is better in every aspect of the games than the Bettmans second line.

3rd line: Tie

Probably my two favourite third line are facing up in this draft. The Bettmans were able to draft a very strong two-way third line, well just like the Detroit Falcons.

Of all six players, I think Tommy Phillips is the best. As much as he's known as a strong defensive player, it's sometime forgotten how complete of a player he was and how much he could do more than check the opposing forwards. Tommy Phillips is the best Left Winger on the Hamilton team. I think you've took Art Chapman too early when you got him as high as the 11th round, but he's not miscast in his role on your team. A good defensive presence who can feed passes to Phillips, it's a good duo. And Blair Russell, a favourite of mine, who is fitting on this line. All in all, a very beautiful, well builted line. Bravo.

On my part, I also think I've builted a very strong third line. I'll start with Bobby Rousseau, an underrated two-way player who was four-time Top-10 in assist in his career, while being a tremendous defensive player. The Professor himself, Phil Goyette, another strong two-way force. 6-Time top-10 in assist, he was able to shine when he was traded from the strong Montreal Team. On the left-side, HHOF'er Harry Watson, one of the most fear player of his time. A ox-strong player known for his ability to shadow his opposition.

4th line: Advantage Detroit Falcons

I still think it was a great idea to reunite Harry Oliver and Buddy O'Connor together on a fourth line, and unite them with a 6'1'' playoff performer in Ed Sandford. It's not the usual non-descript mean and tough fourth the ATD'ers are use to create, but I think my fourth line is one if not the best fourth line in the draft. The Bettmans will have their hands full with all four lines that can chip goals, and when that fourth line will jump on the ice, the other team will have to be wary.

1st pairing defense: Advantage Hamilton Bettmans

I decided to not put together my best two defenseman together on my first unit, and that's why the Bettmans gets the nod from me from that first pairing.

But I will say that Hamilton first pairing is still a very good one. Valeri Vasiliev was a very good defensive defenseman with a mean streak; he was tough and strong and was a great bodychecker. You havn't sold me on Vasiliev the offensive force: he had a good first pass, but I don't see him as a big scoring threat from the blueline. I can change my mind though, just have to convince me! I love Moose Johnson, he's definitely worthy of a first pairing. Although his offense was abysmal, Johnson was a tremendous defensive defenseman. I think you're missing some offensive punch on this unit, but defensively they will be hard to pass by.

I think ''The Quack'' is getting more and more respect in this draft. Although far from a mean hitter, he had every other skills required to be a great hockey player. He was tremendous both offensively and defensively, he was fast and his transition game was impeccable. Playing alongside him, you see one of the toughest, meanest defenseman of All-Time in Jimmy Thomson. A strong leader, he was one of the best passer of his ERA: he was 5-time Top-5 in assist for defenseman, in a ERA with Red Kelly, Doug Harvey and Bill Gadsby among others. They fit very well together.

2nd pairing defense: Advantage Detroit Falcons

What I lose on my first pairing, I gain on the second pairing. Lionel Conacher is a incredible all-around performer, 7-time Top-4 in scoring for defenseman while being very good defensively and a strong checker. He will be able to freely use his offensive skills, while Cy Wentworth, the best defensive defenseman of the 1930's and a good playoff performer, will keep the opponent off the puck.

Jan Suchy is a fine #3 defenseman with all-around abilities. I know some think very highly of Suchy, but I just don't see it. Maybe I'm misinformed? Would love if you could sell him for me. Red Dutton, although in a perfect world would be a #5 defenseman, can definitely use his mean streak as a #4 defender.

3rd pairing defense: Advantage Detroit Falcons

I really like Bert Corbeau and he's far from out of space as a #5 defenseman. Corbeau was very good offensively while bringing a strong physical presence. On the other hand, I don't think Dunc Munro is ATD worthy. I will give him he was a very good leader, but other than that nothing impresses me.

For my third pairing, I've got Art Duncan, one of the greatest offensive force and leader of the pré-NHL ERA. However, we don't have much infos on his defensive abilties , and that why I paired him up with a very good defensive player in Bucko McDonald, a strong shot-blocker who will take care of the business in his own zone while Art will lead the rush.

Goaltenders: Advantage Detroit Falcons

Viewed by many as the greatest goaltender of All-Time, Sawchuk is definitely one of the best at his position. His first 5 years in Detroit was out of this world good, and his legacy was built at a young age. On the other hand, the Detroit Falcons will have to face the best goaltender of his ERA in Clint Benedict, who's viewed by most as one of the top-10 goaltender of All-Time. Although the Falcons gets the edge, Benedict is no slouch and will give tremendous opposition to Detroit. A great goaltending duel should take place.

Coaches: Advantage Detroit Falcons

I never thought I would get an edge in coaching in a series, but this time around it's definitely true. Definitely the worst part of your team. You surrounded a great team with in my opinion, the worst head coach of the draft in Don Cherry. At least you've got Roger Neilson, who I think highly of, to calm Cherry's demeanour a little. I'll admit, I'm biased against someone I dislike very much, but I'M curious as to how you see Cherry coaching this team?

-----------------------------

That's all! Pretty long post. I tried to be objective, but it's obvious I'll be a little biased for my players, because I drafted them when I did, because I thought they were a great fit for my team. I'll try to answer all your inquiry as quickly as possible, although I'll be in school all week long. I'm not here to put your team to the ground and mines to heaven just for the sake of winning this series. I'll give you what you deserve to get, but I'll take what I deserve to take! May the best team win, and if it's your, well so be it

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11-30-2009, 01:41 AM
  #15
TheDevilMadeMe
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To me, the key to this series is whether the Falcons can limit the damage caused by Mario Lemieux. You already said you plan on using the Kraut unit against Mario (a wise choice IMO). But what defensemen do you plan on matching up against him?

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11-30-2009, 02:04 AM
  #16
EagleBelfour
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
To me, the key to this series is whether the Falcons can limit the damage caused by Mario Lemieux. You already said you plan on using the Kraut unit against Mario (a wise choice IMO). But what defensemen do you plan on matching up against him?
It's a very good assessment. What I like is that I have two lines that can counter Mario Lemieux (or do the best they can). Either I'm at home and having last line change or away and having first line change, I will always be able to put either Woody Dumart-Milt Schmidt-Bobby Bauer or Harry Watson-Phil Goyette-Bobby Rousseau at anytime agaisnt him, which IMO is a big plus.

I would be very comfortable having wither of my first Top-2 pairing when Lemieux is on the ice. All four of them were at the very least known as good defensive defenseman. Quackenbush was extremely effective on the D-Side by using postionning while being a master of pock-check. Jimmy Thomson was a rugged defenseman and a classic textbook home defense first defenseman. Lionel Conacher, another physical defenseman, was known for his solid D and his ability to punish you with his hitting. At last Cy Wentworth, was named the best defensive defenseman of the 1930's by Ultimate Hockey and was renowned as a solid puck-stealer of the board and a fine positional defenseman.

I think all four of them can do a great job against stopping Mario Lemieux, again, as much as stopping Lemieux is possible. What I like with the matchup his the options I've got on my hand. It's difficult to grasp in a context where we arn't playing the actual game, but in real life it's not an easy task to match lines 60 minutes a game for an entire playoffs series. However, I feel more than 1 line and more than 1 defense pairing can do an effective job against Bettman's first line.

--------------

EDIT: Lineup that will try to contain the Hamilton Bettmans: feel free to click on any player if you don't know them very well.

Coach: Herb Brooks
Assistant Coach:Father David Bauer

Woody Dumart - Milt Schmidt (C) - Bobby Bauer
Roy Conacher - Duke Keats (A) - Harry Hyland
Harry P. Watson - Phil Goyette - Bobby Rousseau
Ed Sandford - Buddy O'Connor - Harry Oliver

Bill Quackenbush - Jimmy Thomson (A)
Lionel Conacher (A) - Cyclone Wentworth
Art Duncan - Bucko McDonald

Terry Sawchuk
Mike Karakas

Reggie Fleming (LW/D)
Wally Hergesheimer (RW)

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11-30-2009, 02:18 AM
  #17
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Just like the Talking Heads song says.....
You may ask yourself, "How did I get here?"

I'm glad to be in the next round, but somewhat surprised at the same time.

To the debate!!!

I'm not sure why "The Krauts" are viewed as anything other than a weak 1st line. I love Milt, but he's just an average 1st liner. Flanking him with two second line wingers won't help no matter how much chemistry you think they may have.

The Keats-Conacher-Hyland line is actually a stronger line.


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11-30-2009, 02:29 AM
  #18
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3rd Lines

Agreed, these are two of the finest 3rd lines of the draft. Nice job picking yours!

Tommy Phillips is by far the best player on either 3rd line. Blair Russel and Bobby Rousseau are pretty close. Based on what I've read on both players, they are both solid two-way players, but only Russel is experienced at going head to head in a purely defensive role. In a match-up scinario, I'd say Russel is better suited to shut-down an opponent. Art Chapman and Phil Goyette are pretty similar players too. Chapman is a better offensively and Goyette is better defensively, so he's better in a head to head match-up schinario.

With Chapman-Russel and Goyette-Rousseau being pretty much equal, that lets Phillips break the tie (by destoying Watson) and giving the edge to The Bettmans.

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11-30-2009, 02:32 AM
  #19
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Overall, this is how I see it...


1st Line -- edge to Hamilton
2nd Line -- edge to Detroit
3rd Line -- edge to Hamilton
4th Line -- they play such different roles... it's hard to compare

1st Pair - edge to Hamilton
2nd Pair -- edge to Detroit
3rd Pair -- edge to Detroit

Goalie -- slight edge to Detroit

Coaching -- edge to Hamilton (You may not like Cherry, but he's not our only coach)

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11-30-2009, 02:58 AM
  #20
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I may have had these teams ranked 6th & 7th regular season and both out 1st round, but how is this even a contest? Hamilton has the best player in the series, but that's about it. The rest of the team just doesn't compare, and while it surprises me, I have to agree with pappy's assessment of Hamilton's defense.

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11-30-2009, 03:03 AM
  #21
EagleBelfour
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I'm not sure why "The Krauts" are viewed as anything other than a weak 1st line. I love Milt, but he's just an average 1st liner. Flanking him with two second line wingers won't help no matter how much chemistry you think they may have.

The Keats-Conacher-Hyland line is actually a stronger line.
Wow ...

Milt Schmidt an average first liner? Milt Schmidt is one of the finest all-around hockey player of All-Time. I don't know what else to say than take a look at the bio I've made or look yourself for Milt Schmidt. I don't even know where to start if you see Milt Schmidt as a merely average first liner. I would love to hear as to why you think that way, and be sure I'll respond to you rather quickly.

I think the question about Woody Dumart and Bobby Bauer are fair to a certain extent, although i disagree with one of them. First of all, Bobby Bauer is indeed a 2nd line RW in a 32 team drafts. A 3-time Top-10 in scoring, 4-time Top-10 in goals, Bauer was a skilled goalscorer, a strong skater and a very intelligent player. But at the end, he's not one of the top-30 RW of All-Time. With his chemistry with Dumart and Schmidt, there's was no doubt he was the perfect compliment to both of them.

On the Dumart front: I definitely disagree. Dumart is definitely one of the 32 best LW of All-Time. I would say he's around the mid-twenties. Woody Dumart was one of the greatest two-way forward of his ERA. Although he's known as a great, great defensive forward, he was possess a lethal shot, one of the heaviest of his day, while being a strong playoff performer (like his linemate).

- Dumart shot was so heavy that goaltender Cecil Thompson used to step out of the net in practice when he would step in front of him
- Dumart registered five 20-goals season in his career. At the end of the 1950-51 season, only 21 players had accomplished that fate in the NHL (Only one of them isn't an Hall of Fame player)
- Woody retired as the leading scoring left wing in Bruins' history

Quote:
Originally Posted by HHOF
Known as the one of the best two-way players in the game

An outstanding defensive left winger with an above-average scoring touch

Dumart continued to check the top right wingers in the game
Quote:
Originally Posted by In the game
An excellent two-way performer

Not only was he a dangerous offensive performer, but Dumart often drew the task of shadowing opponents' top snipers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Who's Who in Hockey
But it's left-winger, Woodrow Wilson Clarence ''Woody'' Dumart, packed a hard shot and did the less flashy checking that kept him more in the shadows than his pals.

One of Dumart' least-publicized but most effective performances occured during the 1953 Stanley Cup semifinals against the first-place Detroit Red Wings. Woody, an aging veteran, was asked to shadow the inimitable Gordie Howe, Detroit's crack right wing. Dumart accomplished his task so well that the Bruins upset the Red Wings in six games and Howe was limited to only two goals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Hockey
He was especially reliable in important games.

Dumart, as one of the finer two-way talent of his time, was often called upon to cover some of the game's greatest players.
--------------------------

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Blair Russel and Bobby Rousseau are pretty close.
I disagree, Although I respect Blair Russell as a defensive conscience, he never proved himself at the level Rousseau did. Bobby Rousseau offensive abilities are a notch or two superior to the one of Russell, while defensively, Rousseau and Russell were known to shadow the opposition best players. IMO Rousseau offensive abilities and versatility make him the best player of the two.

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Art Chapman and Phil Goyette are pretty similar players too. Chapman is a better offensively and Goyette is better defensively, so he's better in a head to head match-up schinario.
Since when is Art Chapman better offensively? I understand he lead the NHL in assist twice, but his legacy is so short, a mere 4 years at most. Phil Goyette was 6-Time top-10 Assist, 3-Time top-10 in scoring.

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Originally Posted by HHOF
Some say that he had eyes in the back of his head because of his great peripheral vision and smooth passing skills. He was fast becoming a well-balanced craftsman who could play effectively at both ends of the ice.

Nonetheless, he donned his Rangers' sweater and continued his role as a slick playmaker who was well versed in all facets of his game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
[In New York]For the first time in a long time Phil got some serious ice time and he responded strongly. There was never any doubt that he had offensive skills, but finally he got to display them
Quote:
Originally Posted by Our History, Montreal Canadiens
Goyette became a reliable defensive specialist, solidifying his hold on a roster spot with his ability to skate with the best of them, doggedly shadowing his opponent while managing to remain largely within the limits of what officials permitted.

When offensive opportunities presented themselves, Goyette was quick to capitalize.

Without future Hall of Famers ahead of him on the depth chart, Goyette’s career flourished in New York.

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Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
With Chapman-Russel and Goyette-Rousseau being pretty much equal, that lets Phillips break the tie (by destoying Watson) and giving the edge to The Bettmans.
Theo nly edge the Bettmans as is Phillips over Watson, but does it make for the difference between Chapman-Goyette and Russell-Rousseau? It's difficult to tell, that's I decided to let it a tie.

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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Overall, this is how I see it...


1st Line -- edge to Hamilton Agree, but still I think the Krauts and especially Milt Schmidt is a bad matchup for Lemieux
2nd Line -- edge to Detroit Most definitely
3rd Line -- edge to Hamilton Disagree, I'll still cal it a tie
4th Line -- they play such different roles... it's hard to compare They are indeed hard to compare, but talent on Detroit's fourth is undeniable. People will judge, but I think Detroit's 4th will play a bigger role on this series than Hamilton's fourth

1st Pair - edge to Hamilton Agree
2nd Pair -- edge to Detroit Agree
3rd Pair -- edge to Detroit Agree

Goalie -- slight edge to Detroit Agree

Coaching -- edge to Hamilton (You may not like Cherry, but he's not our only coach)Disagree, again I would to hear how you think Cherry will mesh well with your team, I'm all hear to change my mind

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11-30-2009, 03:07 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I may have had these teams ranked 6th & 7th regular season and both out 1st round, but how is this even a contest? Hamilton has the best player in the series, but that's about it. The rest of the team just doesn't compare, and while it surprises me, I have to agree with pappy's assessment of Hamilton's defense.
You had me 6th? How come, what do you see as weaknesses on my team that drop my team into your standing? You know, I have absolutely no problem when someone say something against my team or players, but if you do I would like that you back it up, so I can at least get a chance to respond (maybe change your mind, you never know! ). It's the second or third time you say my team isn't good, but still gave no argument whatsoever.

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11-30-2009, 03:09 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I may have had these teams ranked 6th & 7th regular season and both out 1st round, but how is this even a contest? Hamilton has the best player in the series, but that's about it. The rest of the team just doesn't compare, and while it surprises me, I have to agree with pappy's assessment of Hamilton's defense.
We have the best player, as well as a much better 1st line.

We also have the better 3rd line.

We also have the best defenseman, a better 1st defensive pairing, and a better top-3.

We also have better powerplay and penalty-killing.

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11-30-2009, 03:15 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
We have the best player, as well as a much better 1st line. Best player agree, much better first line? Not sure about that

We also have the better 3rd line. Disagree, already mentionned as to why

We also have the best defenseman, a better 1st defensive pairing, and a better top-3. Agree, Agree, Disagree. Quackenbush, Conacher and Thomson are a stronger group than Vasiliev, Johnson and Suchy (still waiting on the argument on Suchy, might change my mind)

We also have better powerplay and penalty-killing. You may have a better powerplay, but I definitely have the best PK.
,,,n

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Old
11-30-2009, 03:27 AM
  #25
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Wow ...

Milt Schmidt an average first liner? Milt Schmidt is one of the finest all-around hockey player of All-Time. I don't know what else to say than take a look at the bio I've made or look yourself for Milt Schmidt. I don't even know where to start if you see Milt Schmidt as a merely average first liner. I would love to hear as to why you think that way, and be sure I'll respond to you rather quickly.
Of 32 centers, he`s somewhere in the middle. I`d say he`s between 16th and 20th, and that makes him an average 1st liner.

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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I think the question about Woody Dumart and Bobby Bauer are fair to a certain extent, although i disagree with one of them. First of all, Bobby Bauer is indeed a 2nd line RW in a 32 team drafts. A 3-time Top-10 in scoring, 4-time Top-10 in goals, Bauer was a skilled goalscorer, a strong skater and a very intelligent player. But at the end, he's not one of the top-30 RW of All-Time. With his chemistry with Dumart and Schmidt, there's was no doubt he was the perfect compliment to both of them.
Chemistry is fine, but he`s still a very weak 1st line RW.

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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
On the Dumart front: I definitely disagree. Dumart is definitely one of the 32 best LW of All-Time. I would say he's around the mid-twenties. Woody Dumart was one of the greatest two-way forward of his ERA. Although he's known as a great, great defensive forward, he was possess a lethal shot, one of the heaviest of his day, while being a strong playoff performer (like his linemate).

- Dumart shot was so heavy that goaltender Cecil Thompson used to step out of the net in practice when he would step in front of him
- Dumart registered five 20-goals season in his career. At the end of the 1950-51 season, only 21 players had accomplished that fate in the NHL (Only one of them isn't an Hall of Fame player)
- Woody retired as the leading scoring left wing in Bruins' history
He can be an average 1st line player if he`s providing intangibles. This line doesn`t need his intangibles.

His offense just isn`t good enough for 1st line duty. The fact that he had a hard shot is basically meaningless because the only thing that matters is how often he put the puck in the net.... and it`s not often enough for 1st line duty.

He`s got a 2nd and 9th in scoring and 2nd, 8th, 8th in goals. So he`s a 1st liner, but Billy Boucher, who has 3rd, 3rd, 7th in points, isn`t a 2nd liner...

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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I disagree, Although I respect Blair Russell as a defensive conscience, he never proved himself at the level Rousseau did. Bobby Rousseau offensive abilities are a notch or two superior to the one of Russell, while defensively, Rousseau and Russell were known to shadow the opposition best players. IMO Rousseau offensive abilities and versatility make him the best player of the two.
Russel`s offense pretty much blows Rousseau out of the water.

Rousseau`s point finishes = 2nd and 6th
Russel`s point finishes = 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th

You can make all the adjustments for era you want. It doesn`t make up the gap - not even close.

Defensively, both players seem pretty similar. They use their intelligence, speed, and skill to check rather than brawn. Legends of Hockey and Ultimate Hockey both praise Russel for his excellent defensive play - Ultimate Hockey called him the `Best Shadow`of his era and awarded him 2 retro selkes.

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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Since when is Art Chapman better offensively? I understand he lead the NHL in assist twice, but his legacy is so short, a mere 4 years at most. Phil Goyette was 6-Time top-10 Assist, 3-Time top-10 in scoring.
I`d take 1st, 1st, 2nd, 5th in assists over Goyette`s finishes.

Also, he`s passing to Phillips and Russel, who are both superior offensively than your wingers.... so that helps

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