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ATD 12 Foster Hewitt Semi-Final: 2 Trail Smoke Eaters vs. 3 Betelgeuse Hitchhikers

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Old
11-29-2009, 03:50 PM
  #1
God Bless Canada
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ATD 12 Foster Hewitt Semi-Final: 2 Trail Smoke Eaters vs. 3 Betelgeuse Hitchhikers

TRAIL SMOKE EATERS

GM: shanwnmullin
Coach: Dick Irvin

Busher Jackson-Newsy Lalonde-Irvine "Ace" Bailey
Jiri Holik-Ivan Hlinka-Vaclav Nedomansky
Henrik Zetterberg-Don Luce-Bobby Schmautz
Hec Kilrea-Billy Reay-Jim Peplinski

Pierre Pilote-Brad McCrimmon
Frantisek Pospisil-Jiri Bubla
Phil Housley-Jamie Macoun

Bernie Parent
Andy Moog

Extras: Ray Ferraro, Marc Tinordi

PP1: Jackson-Lalonde-Bailey-Pilote-Housley
PP2: Holik-Zetterberg-Nedomansky-Pospisil-Bubla

PK1: Kilrea-Luce-Pilote-McCrimmon
PK2: Zetterberg-Schmautz-Pospisil-Macoun
PK3: Reay-Peplinski
PK4: Lalonde-Jackson

Minor League Squad (Beaver Valley Nitehawks)

C Keith Acton
W Scott Mellanby
W Martin Straka
D Miroslav Dvorak
D Dick Redmond
G Bohumil Modry


VS


BETELGEUSE HITCHHIKERS

GM: Jungosi
Coach : Harry Sinden
Assistant : Bill Dineen

Keith Tkachuk - Wayne Gretzky - Jari Kurri
Alexander Yakushev - Vyacheslav Starshinov - Helmut Balderis
Nick Metz - Doug Jarvis - Rusty Crawford
Johnny Peirson - Paul Ronty - Don Maloney
Ron Duguay

Rod Langway - Larry Murphy
Sergei Zubov - Leo Reise jr.
Glen Harmon - Dave Langevin
Dan Boyle

Jiri Holecek
Roger Crozier

Spare team

Rick Kehoe - Erich Kuehnhackl - Serge Bernier
Udo Kiessling - Hy Buller
Evgeni Nabokov

Special teams :

Powerplay unit 1 : Tkachuk - Gretzky - Kurri - Murphy - Harmon
Powerplay unit 2 : Yakushev - Starshinov - Balderis - Zubov - Reise
Penalty kill unit 1 : Jarvis - Metz - Langway - Zubov
Penalty kill unit 2 : Gretzky - Kurri - Murphy - Langevin

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Old
11-30-2009, 03:52 AM
  #2
shawnmullin
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First thing that strikes me is that we have very similar teams with very different types of first lines... but both very dangerous.

A major advantage for me is on the back end where they don't have a true #1 while we have Pilote.

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Old
11-30-2009, 03:57 AM
  #3
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnmullin View Post
First thing that strikes me is that we have very similar teams with very different types of first lines... but both very dangerous.

.
The similarities between the teams are striking to me too. Both have very dangerous 1st lines, elite checking lines, and "theme" second lines. Two of my favorite teams in the draft.

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Old
11-30-2009, 01:56 PM
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overpass
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Here's a quote on Balderis that I came across while researching Kharlamov.


From the Globe and Mail preview for the Challenge Cup on February 3, 1979, by Donald Ramsay. This is a scouting report provided by Derek Holmes, technical director of Hockey Canada, who prepared a scouting report on the Soviet teams for Scotty Bowman and had watched most of the Soviet players 40 to 50 times.

"Helmut Balderis - Worth the price of admission. Fantastic skills. Probably the best player in the world. Offensive-oriented player who has a great touch around the net and dazzling speed."

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Old
11-30-2009, 01:59 PM
  #5
jarek
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Here's a quote on Balderis that I came across while researching Kharlamov.


From the Globe and Mail preview for the Challenge Cup on February 3, 1979, by Donald Ramsay. This is a scouting report provided by Derek Holmes, technical director of Hockey Canada, who prepared a scouting report on the Soviet teams for Scotty Bowman and had watched most of the Soviet players 40 to 50 times.

"Helmut Balderis - Worth the price of admission. Fantastic skills. Probably the best player in the world. Offensive-oriented player who has a great touch around the net and dazzling speed."
Oh wow. Someone apparently was very high on Balderis. Hyperbole to be sure, but I'm also equally as sure that it wasn't all that far fetched either. Balderis put up some great numbers in the RSL.

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Old
11-30-2009, 02:14 PM
  #6
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First off congratulations shawn for reaching the second round!

As stated before our teams are really, really similar and it should be a very interesting match-up.

First line

I think I have the narrow edge here. Gretzky of course is the best player in the series and will again see plenty of time. I think going best-on-best in the most promising option here. While Gretzky outmatches Lalonde, Jackson and Kurri look quite similar when you look at their scoring records but I think that Kurri's post-season excellence and his defense play gives him a nice advantage. Ace Bailey is of course a better player than Tkachuk but Bailey's play doesn't close the gap created by Gretzky and Kurri. With all factors considered I think this match-up ends in my favour.

Second line

A really, really interesting if not downright awesome match-up! Major probs for building this unit, I love every bit of it. However I also love my 3 Russians on the second line and this will be a great match-up. With these players we have the great opportunity to compare what they did in international competition during the 60's and 70's.

I used the numbers on eurohockey.net for the WC and the wikipedia numbers for the Olympics. The numbers in the brackets are the time span in which these players where active in international competition. I know that this isn't that representive but I think it gives a good idea. I also included the 5 best years for each player because especially in Hlinka's and Holik's case longevity dillutes their accomplishments.

Starshinov (61-71)
94 points in 78 World Cup games 1,21 pp/g
5 best -> 56 in 36 1,56 pp/g
At the Olympics - 12 points in 7 games

Yakushev (67-77)
71 points in 64 World Cup games 1,11 pp/g
5 best -> 62 in 50 1,24 pp/g
At the Olympics - 7 points in 5 games

Balderis (76-83)
63 points in 47 games 1,34 pp/g
5 best -> 63 in 47 1,34 pp/g
At the Olympics - 9 points in 7 games

Nedomansky (65-74)
96 points in 80 World Cup games 1,20 pp/g
5 best -> 68 in 49 1,39 pp/g
At the Olympics 16 points in 12 games

Hlinka (70-81)
85 points in 89 World Cup games 0,96 pp/g
5 best -> 62 in 46 1,35 pp/g
At the Olympics 14 points in 11 games

Holik (64-77)
91 points in 106 World Cup games 0,86 pp/g
5 best -> 54 in 49 1,10 pp/g
At the Olympics 2 points in 7 games

------

Top-10 finishes at the Olympics

Starshinov : 3rd (64) and 3rd (68)
Yakushev : 8th (76)
Nedomansky : 10th (68) and 2nd (72)

I tried to find more data on how they fared going head-to-head but sadly this data wasn't available for the CSSR players.

Looking at the numbers I think I have an advantage on offense. Nedomansky is probably the best forward of those 6 but Starshinov,Balderis and Yakushev emerge as 2,3,4.

Third Line

Again very similar lines. I'd say that they are about equal but it somewhat depends on what you look. Defensively I think mine is better especially with the mismatch of Metz against Schmautz. Offensively however you got the advantage.

Fourth Line

Again quite similar. This it is the other way around. Offensively they are relatively even though I think that I have an small advantage here. Paul Ronty is really underrated as far as placements in the top-10 go. Hec Kilrea has one great year but it has to be taken with a grain of salt because it is the 29-30 season.

Conclusion

Overall I think that I have an slight advantage in the forward deparment especially on offense while the defense is relatively even.

More tomorrow the whole Soviet vs. Czech thing took a LOT of time

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Old
11-30-2009, 02:19 PM
  #7
jarek
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Wow. I'm astonished at Hlinka's peak there. It also is pretty telling of how bad he must have been outside his peak to have his average drop so far.

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11-30-2009, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Wow. I'm astonished at Hlinka's peak there. It also is pretty telling of how bad he must have been outside his peak to have his average drop so far.
His numbers look a bit weird either he got injured rather often or the numbers are incomplete. Considering that the rest looks pretty complete I think he was batteling injuries a lot or had some problems with his coach which wasn't that uncommon in communist coutries.

http://www.eurohockey.net/players/sh...i?serial=27060

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Old
11-30-2009, 02:26 PM
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jarek
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Originally Posted by Jungosi View Post
His numbers look a bit weird either he got injured rather often or the numbers are incomplete. Considering that the rest looks pretty complete I think he was batteling injuries a lot or had some problems with his coach which wasn't that uncommon in communist coutries.

http://www.eurohockey.net/players/sh...i?serial=27060
Still.. only Starshinov beats him peak for peak there. I will definitely think about that.

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11-30-2009, 02:57 PM
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Dreakmur
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I still have doubts about the chemistry of the Russian trio on the second line. All three seem to be goal-scorers who contribute little else.

Who's setting up the plays?
Who's playing 2-way hockey?
Who's getting the pucks out of the corner?

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Old
11-30-2009, 03:02 PM
  #11
jarek
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I still have doubts about the chemistry of the Russian trio on the second line. All three seem to be goal-scorers who contribute little else.

Who's setting up the plays?
Who's playing 2-way hockey?
Who's getting the pucks out of the corner?
Starshinov is a noted playmaker. Yakushev has the intangibles necessary to be a puck winner, it's just a question of will he do it for him.

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Old
11-30-2009, 04:04 PM
  #12
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Starshinov is a noted playmaker. Yakushev has the intangibles necessary to be a puck winner, it's just a question of will he do it for him.
I've never seen anything on Starshinov's playmaking.

Yakushev is big, but not really a puck-winner type.

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11-30-2009, 04:24 PM
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seventieslord
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Starshinov was a ferocious player, maybe not quite a Firsov or Mikhailov but very combatitive in his own right. Couldn't he be the line's puckwinner?

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11-30-2009, 04:38 PM
  #14
jarek
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Starshinov was a ferocious player, maybe not quite a Firsov or Mikhailov but very combatitive in his own right. Couldn't he be the line's puckwinner?
Hmm, I could see that as well.

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11-30-2009, 04:50 PM
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Dreakmur
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Starshinov was a ferocious player, maybe not quite a Firsov or Mikhailov but very combatitive in his own right. Couldn't he be the line's puckwinner?
Ferocious? Makes him sound like some jungle cat....

I'll wait to see some quotes.

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Old
11-30-2009, 05:01 PM
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seventieslord
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Ferocious? Makes him sound like some jungle cat....

I'll wait to see some quotes.
Well, that's not my department. Honestly though, I'm surprised you haven't already read that somewhere.

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11-30-2009, 05:10 PM
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Dreakmur
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Well, that's not my department. Honestly though, I'm surprised you haven't already read that somewhere.
I have never needed or wanted to research him.

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11-30-2009, 05:46 PM
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shawnmullin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I have never needed or wanted to research him.
Great work there Jung though I will say it's not that surprising to me to see the Russians have better point totals in international competition because generally they were playing with a better team. That's just the reality of the overall match up between the two. But the numbers are what they are. Hlinka certainly was great in his peak and impacted by injuries later as you said. I agree that the 2nd line match up is a lot of fun. I'm also a big fan of both lines and especially big yak. I'm going to have to take some more time to dig into this later.

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Old
12-01-2009, 08:21 AM
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Jungosi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I have never needed or wanted to research him.
Quote:
His trademarks were wicked shot on the net from any angle and a feisty character, his love to play physical and hard-hitting hockey. As a player of Moscow Spartak, Starshinov was one of the most valuable players in its championships of the 1960's. On both national and club level, he was a team leader and enjoyed an enormous respect among his teammates.
http://www.chidlovski.com

I wish that I could come up with more but sadly I have very limited access to written sources like books. Is there anything about him in the Red Machine?


Last edited by Jungosi: 12-01-2009 at 08:57 AM.
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Old
12-01-2009, 01:54 PM
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Dreakmur
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http://www.chidlovski.com

I wish that I could come up with more but sadly I have very limited access to written sources like books. Is there anything about him in the Red Machine?
That's good enough for me. Starshinov could certainly be a decent puck-winner.

Now, who's the playmaker?

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Old
12-01-2009, 02:27 PM
  #21
Jungosi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That's good enough for me. Starshinov could certainly be a decent puck-winner.

Now, who's the playmaker?
Both Yakushev and Balderis. Both put up some nice assist numbers when you consider that the stats from the Russian league are rather incomplete and they did not hand out secondary assists as far as I know.

In general I don't think Russians really fit into this classic scheme of Puck winner - Playmaker - Goalscorer. They have (or had) a slighty different approach to the game

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12-01-2009, 02:37 PM
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Dreakmur
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Both Yakushev and Balderis. Both put up some nice assist numbers when you consider that the stats from the Russian league are rather incomplete and they did not hand out secondary assists as far as I know.

In general I don't think Russians really fit into this classic scheme of Puck winner - Playmaker - Goalscorer. They have (or had) a slighty different approach to the game
Balderis had 1 or 2 seasons will good assist totals, but generally, he was a dipsy-doodler who shot first.

Yakushev is also a shoot first player, and I'm not sure he even put up good assist totals.

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12-01-2009, 02:44 PM
  #23
seventieslord
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Jungosi is right that the Russians didn't usually have such a "system" on their forward lines. Everyone was expected to be somewhat proficient at everything. For that reason it may have been tougher for anyone to stand out as a particularly brilliant playmaker.

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Old
12-02-2009, 11:13 AM
  #24
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Looks like my time for discussing this series has past. Good luck Jung sorry we couldn't get into it as much as I would've liked.

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