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Top Paring Defenceman to Vancouver

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Old
11-30-2009, 11:54 PM
  #51
JohnHodgson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmxc12873 View Post
Why do Vancouer fans over-rate all their players?
Most of these guys are 3rd liners on good teams...
Kessler - Broke 40pts once in his career - avg .47ppg - 2nd line center at best
Raymond - 61pts in 147 career games
Burrows - Had career best 28g last year - thank you Sedin Sisters
Bieksa - a plus one time in his career - a +1.....a career minus defenceman
Bernier - 15g is the best he's ever done in a season
Samuelsson - Theres a reason he's on his 6th team in 12th year

Salo and Demitra are good - but LTR's waiting to happen.

...the Sedins and Luongo are the team.
I'm not sure about you but have you heard of something called a breakout season? Sedin Sisters? How mature.

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Old
12-01-2009, 12:13 AM
  #52
pmxc12873
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Right...I'm out of line...

Yet Vancouver thinks they can throw a # 4 in Bieksa, a #6 in O'Brien and a constant scratch in Rypien...

For a 22 year old Staal - who's a potential top 3 guy.... Voros (who's a better Rypien) and Rosival - overpaid, but a 30+ point defenceman.

So to recap...
Staal - 22 year old leading his Dmen in ice time per game - O'Brien and a 2nd
Rosival = Bieksa
Voros > Rypien

Thats sounds just right....

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Old
12-01-2009, 12:15 AM
  #53
R0bert0 Lu0ng0
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Originally Posted by pmxc12873 View Post
Really? Yeah....thats what I'm going for.
This isn't helping your trolling. You're supposed to pretend like you seriously believe the obnoxious ******** you spew, if you acknowledge your routine people are much less likely to fall for it.

Quote:
Tell me...what part of what I wrote isnt a fact?
I wouldn't want to ruin the surprise. Why don't you go through all of the ridiculous, one-sided, myopic garbage you've posted in this thread and do some fact-checking?

When you find the one that I stopped reading at, you'll know.

Quote:
Chicago, San Jose...and then Detroit (if they were healthy)...are the top 3 in the west. Who on that great Vancouver list would crack either a top 6 in forward or top 4 D on those teams?
You know, I could go and find the numbers to help me demonstrate that Ryan Kesler is a top six forward on any team in the league or that Mason Raymond is outproducing __________ or that Kevin Bieksa scores more and kills penalties better than _______...

But you are not worth any further time. Good luck finding someone stupid enough to waste their time on you, I'm sure anyone that blind will make you an equal opponent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmxc12873 View Post
Yet Vancouver thinks they can throw a # 4 in Bieksa, a #6 in O'Brien and a constant scratch in Rypien...
So, I'm confused. When you say "Vancouver thinks" are you saying that you heard this from Mike Gillis or some other member of Canucks management? Or did you personally poll the citizens of Vancouver (I must've missed that phone call)?

Or is it that your posts are both incredibly lazy (causing them to be strewn with errors in mischaracterizations) and about as sensational as it gets (causing them to be pretty ****ing funny )?

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Old
12-01-2009, 12:15 AM
  #54
shortshorts
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Rypien is not a constant scratch. He has been a fulltime skater on the fourth/third line but has been injured. Bieksa is a 40point defensemen for almost half the price of roszival.

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Old
12-01-2009, 12:20 AM
  #55
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Souray for a 1st + M Schneider (salary dump)

If Canucks want to keep Schneider they can.

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Old
12-01-2009, 12:23 AM
  #56
pmxc12873
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Ruin the surprise?? Right....can't find anything not true. Not worth the time...because you wont find any one of those teams those guys would crack

And Bieksa makes half of Rosival?

Rosival - 5.0mil
Bieksa - 3.75mil

And Bieksa...is a career -16
He's had one.....ONE plus season...and it was a +1

And Rypien....is at 19 games this year....2 away from his career high. I guess he's on his way to a career year too.

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Old
12-01-2009, 12:35 AM
  #57
crazy Kassian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmxc12873 View Post
Ruin the surprise?? Right....can't find anything not true. Not worth the time...because you wont find any one of those teams those guys would crack

And Bieksa makes half of Rosival?

Rosival - 5.0mil
Bieksa - 3.75mil

And Bieksa...is a career -16
He's had one.....ONE plus season...and it was a +1

And Rypien....is at 19 games this year....2 away from his career high. I guess he's on his way to a career year too.
I don't know what your babbeling about... And looking at your 16 posts, I'm not sure who's the original hawksdynasti anymore...

Do continue though

some of us have a life, if yours is to pester then alright

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Old
12-01-2009, 12:35 AM
  #58
R0bert0 Lu0ng0
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Originally Posted by pmxc12873 View Post
Ruin the surprise?? Right....can't find anything not true.
When was the last time Mikael Samuelsson played for an NHL team other than the Detroit Red Wings (where he was - get this - sixth on the team among forwards in scoring.. sounds like a top six forward to me) or the Vancouver Canucks?

Honestly, this is too easy.

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Old
12-01-2009, 12:52 AM
  #59
pmxc12873
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Sure...I'll keep giving facts....

Babbling - not babbeling
I pointed out Bieksa makes well more than half than Rosival
Bieksa averages .45ppg in his career - or 37pts per year
Yes...he's topped 40 twice...and again, a career minus player - with ONE PLUS SEASON - (it was a +1..woohoo)

And although you have 1,800 posts....doesnt mean you know what your talking about. Samuelsson played on 5 teams his first 5 years in the league.He was tied with Cleary and Filpulla with 40 pts last year with Detroit - and was 7th in ice time for forwards - putting him on the third line. Barely finishing ahead of Holmstrom who had 37pts in 53gms. He's averaged about 37pts a year in his career.....yeah....a top 6 guy.

Show me a team - other than this year where he's 6th in forwards in TOI - he's been a top 6 forward in icetime.

You're right...this is too easy.

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:03 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barker View Post
Hodgson and a 2nd for Kaberle.
First of all we dont have a second rounder this year.

Kaberle is a good dman but man HODGSON? The canucks best prospect, he all the potential to be a superstar in this league.

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:04 AM
  #61
R0bert0 Lu0ng0
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Originally Posted by pmxc12873 View Post
And although you have 1,800 posts....doesnt mean you know what your talking about. Samuelsson played on 5 teams his first 5 years in the league.He was tied with Cleary and Filpulla with 40 pts last year with Detroit - and was 7th in ice time for forwards - putting him on the third line. Barely finishing ahead of Holmstrom who had 37pts in 53gms. He's averaged about 37pts a year in his career.....yeah....a top 6 guy.

Show me a team - other than this year where he's 6th in forwards in TOI - he's been a top 6 forward in icetime.
Samuelsson has had spot duty in the top six pretty much since the lockout - just like here in Vancouver where he's been a top six forward while we wait for two more talented players to come back from injury. When we're healthy he'll be on the third line.

By the way: Hey, it looks like you're actually checking the "facts" in your posts now! Congratulations, I hope this helps you avoid embarrassing yourself so publicly in the future.

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:06 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by pmxc12873 View Post
Sure...I'll keep giving facts....

Babbling - not babbeling
I pointed out Bieksa makes well more than half than Rosival
Bieksa averages .45ppg in his career - or 37pts per year
Yes...he's topped 40 twice...and again, a career minus player - with ONE PLUS SEASON - (it was a +1..woohoo)
Kovalchuk is a career minus player too. I guess he blows.

Put aside your hater glasses. Bieksa is a competent top 4 defenceman on all but the absolute deepest defence corps in the league (and I'm talking Chicago deep here).

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:12 AM
  #63
pmxc12873
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Actually...I give facts in all my posts.

I dont throw stuff out there and hope it sticks/or no one looks. So...you say he "sounds like a top 6 forward" because he was tied with 2 others in scoring....but didnt get top 6 minutes...making him a 3rd liner....sounds like you dont know your facts.

Like trading a 2nd round pick you dont have.

And Kovalchuk's not a defensive defenceman......as some think Bieksa is. He's a 4/5th at best on a good team. And definately not worth 3.75mil....or worth some of these trades Vancouver fans try to make.

Edler, Salo, Erhoff and Mitchell are all much better than Bieksa....you could prob put him behind Schnieder as well. Those guys are all decent....but not number 1 - top shut down guys. And Bieksa isnt as godd as any of them. Hence....he's over-rated and not going to ger Marc Staal in a trade, as some think


Last edited by pmxc12873: 12-01-2009 at 01:18 AM.
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Old
12-01-2009, 01:12 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by pmxc12873 View Post
Really? Yeah....thats what I'm going for.

Tell me...what part of what I wrote isnt a fact?

Chicago, San Jose...and then Detroit (if they were healthy)...are the top 3 in the west. Who on that great Vancouver list would crack either a top 6 in forward or top 4 D on those teams?
Kesler would be Chicago's second line center. Oh wait. Right. Bolland is better than Kesler .

Bieksa would easily crack San Jose's top four. Unless you think Kent Huskins is a better option .

Try again.

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:16 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by pmxc12873 View Post
And Kovalchuk's not a defensive defenceman......as some think Bieksa is. He's a 4/5th at best on a good team. And definately not worth 3.75mil....or worth some of these trades Vancouver fans try to make.
Again, try again.

Not even the most homer of all Canuck fans will endorse Bieksa as a defensive defenceman. He's gritty and he can put up 40ish points, but has severe lapses in the defensive zone at times. List me five teams aside from Chicago where Bieksa would not crack the top four.

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:24 AM
  #66
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Ignore lists exist for a reason. Trolls only derail threads if someone pays attention to them.

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:41 AM
  #67
pmxc12873
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In no order...I think Bieksa would have a tough time/some can argue he can crack this top four - let alone Vancouvers (Erhoff, Edler, Mitchell, Salo)
Boston- Chara, Morris, Stuart, Wideman
Detroit - Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwell
Calgary - Phaneuf, Regehr, Bouwmeester, Sarich
Kings - Doughty, Scuderi, Johnson, Greene

And do I really have to tell you the difference between Bieksa's game and Kovalachuk's? I dont think we should have to go there....but Kovy is a +2 this year to Bieksa's -1

And that's it...I'm a troll. Put the blinders on and All Hail the Great Canucks!!

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:51 AM
  #68
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Personally....not the biggest Bolland fan. I also dont think the Hawks could or should get Jeff Carter for Bolland like some think Kessler is worth....

Bolland 23 yrs old -134gms - 25g - 45a - 70pts - +27 -.52ppg
Kesler 25yrs old - 246gms - 70g - 94a - 164pts - +9 - .67ppg

I think Bolland is a better 3rd line Center than a 2nd....but he fits well in their system.

Oh..and in the 6gm playoff series against each other last year...
Bolland - 6gms - 4g - 2a - 6pts - +2
Kesler - 6gms - 2g - 1a - 3pts - -3

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Old
12-01-2009, 02:11 AM
  #69
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I think this this thread has devolved a bit from the original topic - which I think is a good one - the need for a top pairing D-man. I think Vancouver actually needs something a bit more than a top pairing guy. It needs a real elite D-man in the mold of a Boyle, Niedermeyer, Keith, etc. All of their current D-corp is pretty much composed of nice 2A type players (Ehrhoff, Bieksa, Salo, Mitchell). They need a stud who can quarterback a powerplay, get the puck up the ice (and keep it in the zone) and play decent defense. Honestly, I think this team (when healthy) could become an upper echelon team with addition of a blue-line stud and perhaps a more reliable scoring winger. How they acquire such a player with the assets they have however is going be difficult if not impossible.

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Old
12-01-2009, 02:14 AM
  #70
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Ok. Real proposal here. I"d say hodgson, bieksa, burrows + a first for keith. Value for value here. Who does it who doesn't do it?
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Old
12-01-2009, 02:22 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Captain Kesler View Post
Ok. Real proposal here. I"d say hodgson, bieksa, burrows + a first for keith. Value for value here. Who does it who doesn't do it?
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Maybe a slight overpayment on Vancouver's side, IMO, but Chicago isn't trading Duncan Keith any time soon.

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Old
12-01-2009, 03:09 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by pmxc12873 View Post
Sure...I'll keep giving facts....

Babbling - not babbeling
I pointed out Bieksa makes well more than half than Rosival
Bieksa averages .45ppg in his career - or 37pts per year
Yes...he's topped 40 twice...and again, a career minus player - with ONE PLUS SEASON - (it was a +1..woohoo)
I'm not going to make any value judgments here and say which defensemen I think are better than Kevin Bieksa. I would just like to point a couple of things out:

1. You keep harping on Bieksa's career -16. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, considering how much you keep repeating it, you seem to find that statistic significant. Morris is a career -30, Bouwmeester is a career -15, Sarich is a career -20, Doughty is a career -13, Greene is a career -28, and Johnson is a career -54. Regarding current season stats, Morris is a -6, Brad Stuart is a -1, and Johnson is -12.

That's not to say that Bieksa is better than any of these players or that these players are not good hockey players. After all, Bouwmeester played on a lacklustre Florida team for years, which likely has something to do with his career minus.

Of course, that just raises the question about how valuable the plus-minus is in evaluating a defensemen. It's not a useless stat, but there are certainly other factors involved: teammates, style of game played, injuries, opposition matchups, &c. You're right about one thing. Kevin Bieksa is not a defensive defenseman. On the Canucks, that would be Willie Mitchell. Bieksa, at least from Canucks management's POV, is expected to add toughness and edge to the backend. Whether he's been doing that this season is up for debate (and most Canucks fans would say that he needs to be more aggressive).

Even if he were a defensive defenseman getting those big shutdown minutes (which he actually did a season or two ago), a low plus-minus would not indicate that he's a poor defensive defenseman; playing all of your minutes against the top offensive guys on the other team, most of the play will be in the defensive end and guys are going to get burned by the best. While Lidstrom and Rafalski might have plusses in the triple digits, most guys don't.

2. You act as if averaging .45ppg is not a good stat. Of the sixteen defensemen you listed, only four (Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Phaneuf) have a better ppg than Bieksa. Doughty, Bouwmeester, Chara, Morris, and Wideman are close, but if the difference between a 2 and a -1 on the season is a big deal (when really it's the difference between one really good game), then I don't see why .01 more points over the course of a career should be any different.

If you're going to claim that Bieksa is a bad player because of his career minus and his apparently low ppg, then using the criteria that you've set out so far, Bouwmeester, Doughty, Johnson, Greene, Sarich, and Morris are no better. All of those players have a negative career plus-minus (and lower than Bieksa to boot, with the exception of Doughty at -13 and Bouwmeester at -15) and a lower career ppg.

Are they bad defensemen? Not a call I'm going to make. I'm just applying your criteria for Bieksa to the sixteen defensemen you claim are better.

3. Saying that Bieksa has topped 40 points twice, whether you're saying that's not good enough or admitting that he is capable of doing so, is a bit misleading. Bieksa topped 40 points twice in the only two seasons that he's played over 70 games. In 2005-2006, he played 39 games as a rookie after being called up from the Moose and likely had limited ice time (I say likely because I can't find the TOI/G stats for that season). In 2007-2008, he played only 34 games after a nasty injury--pretty bad calf laceration from Vern Fiddler's skate--that would hinder most players' mobility. He's on pace for less than 40 points this season, but with Salo-Schneider manning one PP unit and Ehrhoff-Edler on the other, he's getting less prime minutes for scoring. He'd likely be on the point if Schneider wasn't playing.

By the way, Marc Staal is also a career minus, although admittedly still higher than Bieksa. Bieksa, however, scores at more than twice the pace.

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Old
12-01-2009, 03:18 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by CAPiTA View Post
There is one very easy solution to this need:

Sign Smithers,BC product Dan Hamhuis in the off season.
We all agree this is a good idea...let's hope Dan does as well in the summer (for like $4M per year for 5 years).

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Old
12-01-2009, 06:18 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by roddy View Post
The Canucks do not need a top pairing defenseman and do not need to make any of the trades mentioned in this thread.

They need to get their players healthy and IMO they need to get a good third line center. They also need to get their penalty kill in order.

That is all.
this
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAPiTA View Post
There is one very easy solution to this need:

Sign Smithers,BC product Dan Hamhuis in the off season.
and this.

The Canucks need your 3rd line center, and I see MG sticking to the current defensive corps till the offseason.

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Old
12-01-2009, 06:50 AM
  #75
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I see a lot of proposals in this thread from Edmonton fans...

do they not realize that Gillis and Lowe will never agree to a trade?

It's unlikely you see the Canucks make any moves within the division, but Edmonton is easily the last team in the league that the Canucks would even consider dealing with... whether it's Lowe or Tambellini, neither is going to call Gillis for anything other than insulting him... and Gillis would never consider moving anything of value to Edmonton.

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