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Top Paring Defenceman to Vancouver

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Old
12-01-2009, 10:50 AM
  #76
BattleGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
I see a lot of proposals in this thread from Edmonton fans...

do they not realize that Gillis and Lowe will never agree to a trade?

It's unlikely you see the Canucks make any moves within the division, but Edmonton is easily the last team in the league that the Canucks would even consider dealing with... whether it's Lowe or Tambellini, neither is going to call Gillis for anything other than insulting him... and Gillis would never consider moving anything of value to Edmonton.
Under normal circumstances you would be right. If the Oilers are going to tank and rebuild we wouldn't be too worried about losing some games to Vancouver. That would help get us in the Taylor Hall sweepstakes. When Oiler fans see teams looking for D we jump on it. We have an excess of talented Dman that could be moved for picks or good young prospects.

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Old
12-01-2009, 10:53 AM
  #77
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Kyle....thank you for actually putting facts into a response. All those are great points.

All the players you named/compared Bieksa's stats to - yes, I believe are top 4 Dmen.

Then why - in this thread - do Vanvouver fans think they need to trade Bieksa - if he is a top 4 guy (by those numbers).....for a top 4 Dman?

Its the same question I have in another thread ...where they all think that Kesler is superior to Jeff Carter....yet think they should move Kesler PLUS prospects for him??

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12-01-2009, 10:58 AM
  #78
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vancouver would only want a star d man and a trade like 2 first rounders roster player aka bieksa/bernier and cory Schneider sorta like the pronger trade

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Old
12-01-2009, 10:58 AM
  #79
CAPiTA
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Anyone who thinks Kesler is better than Carter because of "intangibles" really sees the world through blue and green tinted glasses. There are only a select few Canucks fan who are that stupid. I'm sure a majority of Canucks fans would move Kesler in a reasonable package for Carter.

The logic behind trading Bieksa would be to include him in a package for a top 2 dman, not simply switch him for another top 4.

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12-01-2009, 12:57 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAPiTA View Post
Anyone who thinks Kesler is better than Carter because of "intangibles" really sees the world through blue and green tinted glasses. There are only a select few Canucks fan who are that stupid. I'm sure a majority of Canucks fans would move Kesler in a reasonable package for Carter.

The logic behind trading Bieksa would be to include him in a package for a top 2 dman, not simply switch him for another top 4.

I guess I see the world through blue and green glasses then. Thanks bigot.

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:04 PM
  #81
NOTENOUGHBREWER
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
I see a lot of proposals in this thread from Edmonton fans...

do they not realize that Gillis and Lowe will never agree to a trade?

It's unlikely you see the Canucks make any moves within the division, but Edmonton is easily the last team in the league that the Canucks would even consider dealing with... whether it's Lowe or Tambellini, neither is going to call Gillis for anything other than insulting him... and Gillis would never consider moving anything of value to Edmonton.
I didnt realize there was bad blood between Tambellini/Lowe and Gillis. Whats the story behind that?

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:09 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Kesler View Post
Ok. Real proposal here. I"d say hodgson, bieksa, burrows + a first for keith. Value for value here. Who does it who doesn't do it?
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Keith is also my personal pipe-drea and the ideal fix for our lack of a top-pairing dman, unfortunately Chicago will never trade him.

Maybe, if the stars align properly, he will be unsigned this summer and Gillis could throw a huge offersheet at him. Which Chicago will promptly match, and move lesser assets to fit under the cap.

Top pairing dmen are incredibly hard to come by, which may be a reason why we were apparently in play for Tampa's pick last draft. Imagine Hedman on this team.

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:12 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmxc12873 View Post
Kyle....thank you for actually putting facts into a response. All those are great points.

All the players you named/compared Bieksa's stats to - yes, I believe are top 4 Dmen.

Then why - in this thread - do Vanvouver fans think they need to trade Bieksa - if he is a top 4 guy (by those numbers).....for a top 4 Dman?

Its the same question I have in another thread ...where they all think that Kesler is superior to Jeff Carter....yet think they should move Kesler PLUS prospects for him??
Why? Because he has not had a great year thus far. Like Clowe in San Jose he's been struggling. Does that mean he's a bad defenceman or not a top 4 defenceman? Of course not. It means he may need a change of scenery, and as a RH two-way defenceman with an edge capable of 40 points he is a valuable commodity to most teams.

Again - it would be part of a package to land a better defenceman. You seem to be the only one assuming that all of us are proposing

Van

Keith

Chi

Bieksa

Try reading the thread a bit harder and you will see that is not the case.

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:15 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
I didnt realize there was bad blood between Tambellini/Lowe and Gillis. Whats the story behind that?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/column...ott&id=2927086

Quote:
Poor Edmonton GM Kevin Lowe: It's bad enough he can't keep players who actually agree to come to Edmonton (see Chris Pronger, Jaroslav Spacek, Michael Peca, et al.), now the players are fleeing before they actually set skate in the city -- and they're fleeing to other locales for less money than the Oilers are willing to pay them.

In a move that makes both agent Mike Gillis and center Michael Nylander appear out of touch and duplicitous, Nylander agreed to a contract with the Oilers. And then, before the contract was confirmed and signed by all parties, Nylander reneged and signed for less money with the Washington Capitals -- once again leaving the Oilers red-faced and paying a surprisingly heavy price for their geography.
I think Lowe also said that he would never do a deal with Gillis once he became GM.

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:39 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAPiTA View Post
Anyone who thinks Kesler is better than Carter because of "intangibles" really sees the world through blue and green tinted glasses. There are only a select few Canucks fan who are that stupid. I'm sure a majority of Canucks fans would move Kesler in a reasonable package for Carter.
While I don't see Kesler as being better than Carter, no way would I trade Kesler for Carter. As opposed to most 'fans' these days, I actually grow quite attached to most of our players, especially ones like Kesler.

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Old
12-01-2009, 02:32 PM
  #86
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Can somebody please explain to me why I keep seeing proposals for Kaberle and other PP quarterbacks in here? The Canucks have the second (or is it third now) best PP in the league and Christian Ehrhoff is third in the league among all skaters in PP points. They have zero need for yet another PP quarterback, they already have three. Dan Hamhuis is really the only guy I can think of who might be available that fits the Canuck's needs. Unless of course they wanted to sell the farm for a guy like Suter, but I doubt Nashville trades him even if Vancouver offered a package around Hodgson.

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Old
12-01-2009, 03:54 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by section8 View Post
Under normal circumstances you would be right. If the Oilers are going to tank and rebuild we wouldn't be too worried about losing some games to Vancouver. That would help get us in the Taylor Hall sweepstakes. When Oiler fans see teams looking for D we jump on it. We have an excess of talented Dman that could be moved for picks or good young prospects.
it's not about rebuilding teams and just dealing within the division.

Lowe/Tambellini and Gillis hate each other. Lowe has already said he'd never discuss a trade with Gillis... Tambellini ripped Gillis when he left the Canucks organization as well... there is bad blood there, and it's already been said that they would never deal with each other.

So there's no such thing as "normal circumstances" when dealing with these teams... you will not see these teams negotiate a deal until Gillis or Lowe & Tambellini are no longer part of their respective organizations.

IIRC, the last time these teams actually made a deal (not including minor league players) was Slegr/Oksuita, back in the mid 90s... don't expect a trade between these teams anytime soon.

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Old
12-01-2009, 04:03 PM
  #88
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ive come to realize that almost all of the trolls who try to contradict everything everyone says just to get a reaction are blackawks fans..what is it with you guys?

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Old
12-01-2009, 04:07 PM
  #89
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What would you give up for Tyler Myers and Derek Roy?

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12-01-2009, 04:09 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
What would you give up for Tyler Myers and Derek Roy?
name your price.

Myers will not be traded though... he's the future on a blueline that hasn't had a star player on it for a long time. The amount of overpayment required to get Myers will have every team walk away from trying to acquire him.

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12-01-2009, 04:16 PM
  #91
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For Myers and Roy?

Start with Kesler and Hodgson and build around them.....

But anyways, Myers won't be traded.

What about Tallinder? He's been our best defenseman so far this season.
What kind of defenseman do you need? What should he bring on the table.

We Have a lot of top 3-4 d-men on our team.


Last edited by Luceni: 12-01-2009 at 04:21 PM.
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Old
12-01-2009, 04:27 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
For Myers and Roy?

Start with Kesler and Hodgson and build around them.....

But anyways, Myers won't be traded.

What about Tallinder? He's been our best defenseman so far this season.
What kind of defenseman do you need? What should he bring on the table.

We Have a lot of top 3-4 d-men on our team.
and so do the Canucks... they have no need at all for another 3-4 guy... they currently have Mitchell, Ehrhoff, Edler, Salo, Bieksa, Schneider, and O'Brien. as you can see there isn't any need for another #3-4 defender on the team with 5 guys that are anywhere from #2-4 guys on the team.

They need a legitimate #1, and I doubt you're going to land one in trade, unless it's a rental player coming from a non-playoff team.

The only guy on any interest in Buffalo is Myers, and he won't be dealt.

For the Canucks to get a #1 guy, it'll have to be either development from within, or sign a UFA. It'll cost too much to acquire one via trade.

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Old
12-01-2009, 05:17 PM
  #93
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Like others have said I don't see the Canucks needing a big pp defenseman at all. Our need is really to replace what Salo used to bring, which is an all round solid and reliable defenseman capable of playing tough minutes, complimenting Mitchell. Hamhuis seems like that guy and a great fit.

On the other hand, I hope that Salo simply regains his form.

Bieksa is not a defensive defenseman, that guy is essentially making stuff up.

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Old
12-01-2009, 05:30 PM
  #94
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To acquire Kaberle; something special will have to be put on the table. Many people think its just leaf fans that think hes worth a lot.
The management will just keep the nice and tidy contract along with his above average play, if we have to.

Kaberle for a equally as good Center.
or for a package of players that will help in the future.
(young roster player + talented prospect + high end pick)

you draw out the proposals, because i dont think its realistic to make them up off the top of my head.

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Old
12-01-2009, 05:32 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Britton View Post
The Canucks have zero need for someone like Kaberle, they have the offensive guys already. What we need is someone who can play the tough 5v5 and PK minutes. Hamhuis is a guy that comes immediately to mind but I'm not sure what it would take to get him.
Someone like... Hmm. Ohlund?

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Old
12-01-2009, 05:39 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyboy8920 View Post
To acquire Kaberle; something special will have to be put on the table. Many people think its just leaf fans that think hes worth a lot.
The management will just keep the nice and tidy contract along with his above average play, if we have to.

Kaberle for a equally as good Center.
or for a package of players that will help in the future.
(young roster player + talented prospect + high end pick)

you draw out the proposals, because i dont think its realistic to make them up off the top of my head.
Kaberle isn't worth it. The price tag for him - or what Leaf fans demand for him - makes him worthless to a team like the Canucks. They aren't in need of puckmoving dmen, and that's the biggest attribute he brings to a team. He's just not as dominant in his own zone. Personally, if you're going to add another dman like that, I'd make an offer at the deadline for Niedermayer, who's hitting UFA status, and would likely come at a cheaper price than Leaf fans are demanding for Kaberle, while being a better defensive player than Kaberle as well, which is what the Canucks need to add.

Kaberle would be a nice addition if it doesn't cost any valuable pieces, which obviously wouldn't happen before he hits UFA status. But I wouldn't even consider giving up half of what Leaf fans want for him.

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12-01-2009, 05:40 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazzucco View Post
Someone like... Hmm. Ohlund?
exactly someone like Ohlund... from 3+ years ago!

we haven't had a #1 dman since his play fell from that level... but that's exactly what the Canucks need right now... not a guy like Kaberle, but a #1 dman who is a defensive rock in his own zone and can eat huge minutes in all key situations. Ohlund was that player once upon a time.

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12-01-2009, 05:42 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmxc12873 View Post
All the players you named/compared Bieksa's stats to - yes, I believe are top 4 Dmen.

Then why - in this thread - do Vanvouver fans think they need to trade Bieksa - if he is a top 4 guy (by those numbers).....for a top 4 Dman?
The question isn't whether those sixteen other defensemen are top four guys or not. That's not what's being discussed here. You've already taken the liberty of assuming, without providing justification, that they are. You questioned whether Bieksa would be able to crack the top four of any of those teams; I was just pointing out that it's not as distant as you seem to think.

Yes, Vancouver fans are trying to swap a top 4 in Bieksa for another top 4, but again, you're being very misleading when you say that. It would be more accurate to say, as others have pointed out, that Vancouver fans would like to swap a guy who isn't a top 2 guy (in addition to other pieces) for a guy who is a top 2 guy.

But now that you seem a little more open to the idea that Bieksa just might be a top 4 d, let's take a look at the proposed deals. Frankly, I fail to see which proposed deals with Bieksa are so outrageous.

It it the Kronwall + Draper for Schneider + Bieksa + Bernier + 2nd? A second pairing guy and third-line centre (who has been pushed to the Helm's wing) for a second pairing guy, third-line winger, high quality goalie prospect, and a second round draft pick?

Is it Bieksa + O'Brien + Burrows + Rypien for Staal + Higgins + Voros? Doesn't seem that outrageous to me. If it does to you, keep in mind that this was a proposal from a Rangers fan, not a Vancouver fan.

Is it the counter offer of Bieksa + O'Brien + Rypien + 2nd for Staal + Roszival? Roszival might not be making twice what Bieksa is making, but that doesn't mean he's not overpaid. Vancouver would be taking on a poor contract--Roszival, after all, would be the highest paid Vancouver defenseman by over a million dollars--in order to acquire Staal.

Now might be a good time to point out that nobody proposed Bieksa + O'Brien + Rypien + 2nd for Staal + Roszival + Voros. That's all on you getting the two above proposals mixed up.

Is it Bieksa + 2nd for Kaberle? A possible underpayment but in the context of this discussion, it was mentioned in response to a possible overpayment of Burrows + Schroeder + 1st for Kaberle. In addition, neither was a proposal being offered by a fan. The latter was offered as what Burke might initially ask for and the former was what Gillis might initially offer. A hypothetical negotiation where the actual deal would fall somewhere in between.

Or is it Hodgson + Bieksa + Burrows + 1st for Keith? A very highly touted prospect that could very well make the jump next season; a number 4 defenseman; a player who has shown to be capable of scoring 28 goals with the right linemates and who, even if he doesn't, can fall back to a third-line checking winger with the ability to agitate the hell out of opponents (and thus allowing Chicago to save some space by moving Ladd) and a 1st round draft pick for a number 1 defenseman on a team that might not be in cap trouble but isn't far off. An Oilers fan in this thread said that this might be overpayment for Keith.

None of these deals are a number 4 defenseman for another number 4 defenseman. They're all a number 4 defenseman plus other pieces for a guy that would be higher up on the depth chart.

Again, I'll refrain from saying whether these deals are good or not. Instead, I'll simply say that none are as outrageous as you seem to think. The proposals in this thread involving Bieksa have not been too crazy. The only one being unreasonable in regards to Bieksa appears to be you and your criticism.

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Old
12-01-2009, 10:19 PM
  #99
CAPiTA
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Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan View Post
I guess I see the world through blue and green glasses then. Thanks bigot.
I don't see how I'm a bigot at all. And btw, the fans have spoken:

My Poll

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12-02-2009, 01:02 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
it's not about rebuilding teams and just dealing within the division.

Lowe/Tambellini and Gillis hate each other. Lowe has already said he'd never discuss a trade with Gillis... Tambellini ripped Gillis when he left the Canucks organization as well... there is bad blood there, and it's already been said that they would never deal with each other.

So there's no such thing as "normal circumstances" when dealing with these teams... you will not see these teams negotiate a deal until Gillis or Lowe & Tambellini are no longer part of their respective organizations.

IIRC, the last time these teams actually made a deal (not including minor league players) was Slegr/Oksuita, back in the mid 90s... don't expect a trade between these teams anytime soon.
actually, peter sarno was traded from oilers to canucks back in 02 or 03

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