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Lundqvist must be much better (the Lundqvist thread)

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12-01-2009, 10:22 AM
  #76
Chimp
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Everyone needs to play better, except Gaborik, Prospal and maybe Del Zotto.

You want to talk goalie stats? Lundqvist has been there before. The team before him has sucked royally before, as they seem to do on a regular basis. This is nothing new.

You want to talk cold and hot streaks? Every player goes through them. Every player. It's just that if you're a goalie on this team, it means hell. Because you can't take a single minute off, the guys in front will never be there for you. The cold streaks on good teams are much less noticable, since they actually have a concept of team defense, backing up their guy in net to make his job easier. Or they bail their goalie out in the other end of the ice. We do neither, even if Gaborik single handedly tries.

You know what the problem is? The increase in GAA was expected. It's written out loud in our frigging gameplan. The problem is, we got nothing to show for it, we're not scoring more goals ourselves because of it. You think opening up the game, while making sloppy mistakes all over, while not scoring more is good for the team?

It's really convenient to blame Lundqvist for all the crap that is happening before our eyes when the puck consequently ends up in our net too many times, isn't it? Expecting Lundqvist to save this sorry excuse of a team game in and game out, season after season, is ridiculous. When will there actually be a team out there on the ice? It's been 5 seasons since the lockout now, it has only gotten worse. We won't become a better team just because Lundqvist starts to keep us in the games as he usually does, with how we play, we will still lose the majority of our games. We will still lose a majority of the games we have no business winning. We will still be a 1st round exit, at best.

This team has no identity, since half the team is exchanged every ******* season. We don't have enough anchor players to carry the team through bad times, because we've thrown too much of the cap money on crap. You want to talk cold and hot streaks? Every player goes through them. Every player. It's just that if you're a goalie on this team, it means hell.

Those of you who are seriously suggesting that Lundqvist should actually be traded: For your sake, I'm really hoping he'll be traded. Then you can suffer for real, because you obviously haven't realized just how bad this team really is. You think downgrading in net will solve this team's real problems?

You know what Khabibulin's save percentage was under Tortarella the year Tampa won the cup? 91%. You know what save percentage Lundqvist currently has? 91%. I don't need to tell the difference between Tampa Bay of 2004 and New York Rangers of 2009. Ridiculously young team + overpaid bums who are supposed to be franchise players + every single guy is a 3rd liner + no team chemistry since every guy is a new guy = lousy team.

And yes, if you want to continue complaining about Lundqvist not being aggressive enough and staying too deep in his net: look at Benoit Allaire, who coaches Lundqvist exactly how Giguere is coached. How well is Giguere doing again? I completely agree the "stay deep, passive" style isn't the answer. It was perhaps good under the collapsing defense of Renney, but not under Torts. Hank needs to start playing like he did in SEL before he came over. He was playing alot more like Fleury does, challenging shooters pretty far out, but maybe not as extremely far out as Fleury. If the system is aggressive and suicidal, then Lundqvist needs to play more aggressive and suicidal (well, maybe not suicidal). After all, it's a team concept.

And another thing: every goalie has a "weakness" up high, over the shoulders and under the crossbar. You think this is specifically a problem for Lundqvist, or for butterfly goalies? Get real.

Wait until 2012, that's when the real season (hopefully) starts. After all, it's still $ather behind the steering wheel. And he has whiskey and daddy's car keys.


Last edited by Chimp: 12-01-2009 at 10:38 AM.
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12-01-2009, 10:23 AM
  #77
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Hank is not focused plain and simple. The question is why and is there more then meets the eye

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12-01-2009, 10:23 AM
  #78
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It's a shame the Olympics don't start sooner. I think the break would really help him at this point.

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12-01-2009, 10:27 AM
  #79
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Too early to do anything drastic. It may seem like he's been bad for a while now, but what has it been - like 10-12 games? Maybe we're just surprised it happened so early this season.

I still think he's very a talented goalie and will break out of it eventually. He needs to rest a bit and work on his mechanics, although I'm not sure how the former can happen will Vally playing even worse.

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12-01-2009, 10:37 AM
  #80
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When will Benoit Allaire be held accountable? Both of his goaltenders are struggling and giving up goals in eerily similar ways...
We see both Hank and Valley making some nice saves and than another minute they give up a goal top shelf which should have been stopped.. I think it's a problem in goaltending coaching and Allaire should be called out and possibly fired. Also, you ever wonder why Hank is so good in shootouts? He comes out of the net and challenges shooters! I'm sure if he did that during a game and played aggressive he wouldn't be giving up softies every game like he is now..

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12-01-2009, 10:40 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRangers84 View Post
When will Benoit Allaire be held accountable? Both of his goaltenders are struggling and giving up goals in eerily similar ways...
We see both Hank and Valley making some nice saves and than another minute they give up a goal top shelf which should have been stopped.. I think it's a problem in goaltending coaching and Allaire should be called out and possibly fired. Also, you ever wonder why Hank is so good in shootouts? He comes out of the net and challenges shooters! I'm sure if he did that during a game and played aggressive he wouldn't be giving up softies every game like he is now..
Interesting thought...I do think Hank seems to be more vulnerable on the high shots this year

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12-01-2009, 10:43 AM
  #82
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Interesting thought...I do think Hank seems to be more vulnerable on the high shots this year
I don't think he's more vulnerable than usual. It's just that he allows more top shelf shots when the guys in front are way too slow to contest shooters. If they are given all the time in the world in prime scoring areas, they will obviously snipe and succeed more than when we're all over them.

I repeat though, I'm all for throwing this ******* "deep in net, passive style" out the window and let Lundqvist be more aggressive against the shooters. If the guys in front can't do their job, Lundqvist needs to pinch. Screw the passing lanes, the NHL ice always sucks anyway.

It's pretty obvious there's less net to shoot at and that angles are better cut off - yes even the top angles - if the goalie goes at least to the top of his crease, possibly further out.

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12-01-2009, 10:44 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by NYRangers84 View Post
When will Benoit Allaire be held accountable? Both of his goaltenders are struggling and giving up goals in eerily similar ways...
We see both Hank and Valley making some nice saves and than another minute they give up a goal top shelf which should have been stopped.. I think it's a problem in goaltending coaching and Allaire should be called out and possibly fired. Also, you ever wonder why Hank is so good in shootouts? He comes out of the net and challenges shooters! I'm sure if he did that during a game and played aggressive he wouldn't be giving up softies every game like he is now..
I'm curious why he hasn't started doing it yet. At worst I don't think he's going to be giving up more goals than he is now.

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12-01-2009, 10:47 AM
  #84
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Lundqvist needs to revert to his natural style of goaltending which is cutting down the angle and show less net to the shooter because right now he's being faced with more difficult scoring chances and more open shots. Hank needs to play it as if were a shootout almost and I can almost guarantee he would feel better and his GAA would be lower. The thing is Allaire hasn't made this adjustment when Renney left and hence he should be let go.

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12-01-2009, 10:50 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
no, hes not getting any help. But you know what? His entire career he hasn't been getting any help. His lack of help is nothing new.
That's true, but anytime he goes into a funk like he is, it seems to be complete frustration of that severe lack of help.
Does anyone else find themselves yelling "step up" or "get him" or "THERE'S SIDNEY ****ING CROSBY AT THE NET WITH NOBODY EVER ****ING LOOKING"

I'm sure Hank damn well is.


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12-01-2009, 10:59 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
I don't think he's more vulnerable than usual. It's just that he allows more top shelf shots when the guys in front are way too slow to contest shooters. If they are given all the time in the world in prime scoring areas, they will obviously snipe and succeed more than when we're all over them.

I repeat though, I'm all for throwing this ******* "deep in net, passive style" out the window and let Lundqvist be more aggressive against the shooters. If the guys in front can't do their job, Lundqvist needs to pinch. Screw the passing lanes, the NHL ice always sucks anyway.

It's pretty obvious there's less net to shoot at and that angles are better cut off - yes even the top angles - if the goalie goes at least to the top of his crease, possibly further out.
Nice post. Here's how I see it: When Renney's conservative approach left this club, Allaire's conservative goaltending approach should have followed. Hank is now being tested more than ever and he can no longer play deep in his net and make routine saves. He needs to be at the top of his crease and above almost every minute he plays. The only time he maybe should stay deep is when the opposing team has an odd man rush.

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12-01-2009, 11:07 AM
  #87
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Lundqvist

Hello? wake up!!! So simply the debt is to be given to a man on the ice, somehow typically! Does none see defended like badly the team? We in Germany say to it, perforated like a Swiss cheese. Are when are goalkeepers Gods?Torts constantly changes the rows! The team closes goals much too little!
Too many not experiencing players are in the team!
Last year was better the defense around some.

I am not the opinion that Lundqist is the guilty! Places a Brodeur in the team and the team will further lose, because Brodeur is also no God. Brodeur is so good, because he has super a defense and its team goals shoots.

Torts is a bad coach, he must away!

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12-01-2009, 11:08 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by NYRangers84 View Post
Nice post. Here's how I see it: When Renney's conservative approach left this club, Allaire's conservative goaltending approach should have followed. Hank is now being tested more than ever and he can no longer play deep in his net and make routine saves. He needs to be at the top of his crease and above almost every minute he plays. The only time he maybe should stay deep is when the opposing team has an odd man rush.
We have an agreement. And yes, as you say, there are moments when the deep style is correct. It needs to be mixed with aggressive pinches, because this isn't working. Now it's all about bashing it into Allaire's and Lundqvist's heads. Challenge the shooters more, because these game situations won't change, it's up to our goalie and his coach to do that.

If we are beaten in our zone - as expected - and Lundqvist challenges to cut down angles and the player somehow manages to pass an open buddy for open net - while our defense as expected fails at closing the passing lanes - meh, at least we tried. Lundqvist is known for having incredibly fast lateral mobility anyway, why not put it to some use?

Having him constantly stand there on the goal line like the Michelin Man feels like a waste of talent. He needs to battle more.


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12-01-2009, 11:15 AM
  #89
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It's a shame the Olympics don't start sooner. I think the break would really help him at this point.
Break? He'll be playing harder than ever during the Olympics. He lives to play in that. No break at all for him.

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12-01-2009, 11:21 AM
  #90
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We have an agreement. And yes, as you say, there are moments when the deep style is correct. It needs to be mixed with aggressive pinches, because this isn't working. Now it's all about bashing it into Allaire's and Lundqvist's heads. Challenge the shooters more, because these game situations won't change, it's up to our goalie and his coach to do that.

If we are beaten in our zone - as expected - and Lundqvist challenges to cut down angles and the player somehow manages to pass an open buddy for open net - while our defense as expected fails at closing the passing lanes - meh, at least we tried. Lundqvist is known for having incredibly fast lateral mobility anyway, why not put it to some use?

Having him constantly stand there on the goal line like the Michelin Man feels like a waste of talent. He needs to battle more.
This is very true. Now what is it going to take for this change to happen?

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12-01-2009, 11:21 AM
  #91
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I want this guy back...




But it's not just him. The team infront dosen't really play solid hockey.

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12-01-2009, 11:23 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRangers84 View Post
Nice post. Here's how I see it: When Renney's conservative approach left this club, Allaire's conservative goaltending approach should have followed. Hank is now being tested more than ever and he can no longer play deep in his net and make routine saves. He needs to be at the top of his crease and above almost every minute he plays. The only time he maybe should stay deep is when the opposing team has an odd man rush.
Interesting, I've never seen the comparison made between Renney and Allaire... Good post.

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12-01-2009, 11:48 AM
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Benoit Allaire has to go

It was good while it lasted but now that our system changed this "goaltending system" needs to change. I've had enough of Hank living on the goal line and not giving himself the best opportunity to stop the puck. I think Torts' aggressive system calls for a more aggressive goaltending approach. Hank is facing tougher scoring opportunities this season and he has to battle. Hank is amazing at shootouts for a reason: he throws the Allaire approach out the window and plays his own game. Fire Allaire and either get a more traditional goaltending coach or no coach at all and just let Hank play naturally (Valley can do w/e he wants). This obviously won't fix all or most our team problems but if this is the thing that Hank needs to regroup, refocus and get back on track, I'm all for it.

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12-01-2009, 11:51 AM
  #94
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the problem with Hank is that he sits back on his goal line. In his rookie season he didn't do that, he played HIS game, and after that the rangers let Benoit Allaire try and teach him to be like patrick roy, which will never work for a goalie like hank

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12-01-2009, 11:52 AM
  #95
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He deserves the benefit of the doubt for the last 4+ years with Lundqvist.

Besides, if you want Lundqvist to improve his game, I dont think firing his mentor is a good place to start.

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12-01-2009, 11:52 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by NYRangers84 View Post
It was good while it lasted but now that our system changed this "goaltending system" needs to change. I've had enough of Hank living on the goal line and not giving himself the best opportunity to stop the puck. I think Torts' aggressive system calls for a more aggressive goaltending approach. Hank is facing tougher scoring opportunities this season and he has to battle. Hank is amazing at shootouts for a reason: he throws the Allaire approach out the window and plays his own game. Fire Allaire and either get a more traditional goaltending coach or no coach at all and just let Hank play naturally (Valley can do w/e he wants). This obviously won't fix all or most our team problems but if this is the thing that Hank needs to regroup, refocus and get back on track, I'm all for it.
so a rough what 15 game stretch or so, and we eliminate somebody who has done quite well with our goaltending situation for years now? Good call.

Glad you know that Hank ignores anything he learned from Allaire in shootouts too, did he tell you that?

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12-01-2009, 11:52 AM
  #97
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You do realize his statistics are a reflection of his team, no?

Team Game. Rotating a combination of 12 different forwards, and 6 different defensemen.

Lundqvists stats, should be last in the entire league with the way the team has been playing.
You are right about it reflecting his team. Sadly you are right about the rest too.

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12-01-2009, 11:54 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by lundqvistfan33 View Post
the problem with Hank is that he sits back on his goal line. In his rookie season he didn't do that, he played HIS game, and after that the rangers let Benoit Allaire try and teach him to be like patrick roy, which will never work for a goalie like hank
Look at my new thread, my ideas are very similar

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12-01-2009, 11:57 AM
  #99
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Hasn't hank been playing deep in the net his whole career, even in sweden? I don't think he's the problem. If any coach needs a reality check its torts for not adjusting to the ways teams are playing us. We got off to a fast start and other teams adapted their strategies, and john keeps banging away at the same thing with no results. Hank's glove high weakness has been known for some time, I don't think he needs a goalie coach to tell him that. Why it hasn't been fixed yet is another story altogether, but I have the feeling that goes beyond a goalie coach and is more a reflection of the player himself.

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12-01-2009, 12:01 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by lundqvistfan33 View Post
the problem with Hank is that he sits back on his goal line. In his rookie season he didn't do that, he played HIS game, and after that the rangers let Benoit Allaire try and teach him to be like patrick roy, which will never work for a goalie like hank
Maybe you'd have a point if your assertation that Lundqvist hasnt played deep in the net his whole career wasnt a complete and utter myth.

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