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Ethan Moreau and the myth

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Old
12-01-2009, 12:09 PM
  #1
oilmachine
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Ethan Moreau and the myth

I was listening to gregor not long ago, and well,
He pointed something out to the effect; Ethan Moreau wasnít taking those penalties he was known for...

So I was curious to see if this was true, and well, numbers donít lie. What did I find out? Well, he is still a penalty machine..

He leads the oilers with 11 minors,
Although he is third with over all PIMS, the two people above him are as follow :

Player Team Pos GP PIM Minor Major Misc G Misc Match
1 Zack Stortini EDM R 27 63 9 7 1 0 0
2 Jean-Francois Jacques EDM L 20 47 6 3 2 0 0
3 Ethan Moreau EDM L 26 27 11 1 0 0


What I really found interesting is the role the two above him play. Also I still find while watching the games that Moreau takes them at the worst times.

Maybe I am just jaded, and looking for a whipping boy, and this "leader" of ours seems to be a good choice. But really, leadership starts with the C's and A's for the players as well. Things have to change... Ship him out..


Thatís my rant for today, as I advocate the dive for five; the oilers will never be more then what they are, unless they blow this up...

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12-01-2009, 12:16 PM
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Sorry - the "myth" is what, then? That he doesn't take too many bad penalties?

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12-01-2009, 12:18 PM
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that he was "no longer" taking bad penalties.

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12-01-2009, 12:19 PM
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He's improved lately in this regard and has probably shown the most improvement over any Oiler in the last week or two, and he probably had the farthest way to go. He's still frustrating as hell, but this post would have made more sense if it wasn't posted when he's been playing pretty decent hockey.

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12-01-2009, 12:38 PM
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People forget that one of the challenges for veteran players is playing todays version of sissy rules where so much as touching somebody or just a slight tug or hold is now an infraction.

From Moreau its usually that type of innocuous call that now gets called.

Imagine if you've played the game for decades and now you have to play it much differently.

Especially the NHL level game that is moving so fast. Behaviors that are instantaneous often become almost innate and through years of learned behavior you end up continuing even though you know you shouldn't. But its not entirely conscious, some of it is almost involuntary I would suspect.

Unlearning them is easier said than done.

Its easier for a young player to play todays rules as they never got used to the tug or hook or slight hold.

I bet there would be a league wide correlation between age and penalty minutes.


Last edited by Replacement: 12-01-2009 at 12:45 PM.
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Old
12-01-2009, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
People forget that one of the challenges for veteran players is playing todays version of sissy rules where so much as touching somebody or just a slight tug or hold is now an infraction.

From Moreau its usually that type of innocuous call that now gets called.

Imagine if you've played the game for decades and now you have to play it much differently.

Especially the NHL level game that is moving so fast. Behaviors that are instantaneous often become almost innate and through years of learned behavior you end up continuing even though you know you shouldn't. But its not entirely conscious, some of it is almost involuntary I would suspect.

Unlearning them is easier said than done.

Its easier for a young player to play todays rules as they never got used to the tug or hook or slight hold.

I bet there would be a league wide correlation between age and penalty minutes.
Ethan is that you?

Come on it has nothing to do with sissy calls it is that he cannot keep up anymore to the younger, faster, stronger players. Hopefully we can get at least a solid pick or prospect for him at the deadline becuase i am positive that his days here are done.

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
People forget that one of the challenges for veteran players is playing todays version of sissy rules where so much as touching somebody or just a slight tug or hold is now an infraction.

From Moreau its usually that type of innocuous call that now gets called.

Imagine if you've played the game for decades and now you have to play it much differently.

Especially the NHL level game that is moving so fast. Behaviors that are instantaneous often become almost innate and through years of learned behavior you end up continuing even though you know you shouldn't. But its not entirely conscious, some of it is almost involuntary I would suspect.

Unlearning them is easier said than done.

Its easier for a young player to play todays rules as they never got used to the tug or hook or slight hold.

I bet there would be a league wide correlation between age and penalty minutes.
Pretty weak Replacement

95% of the league has managed to adapt to the new rules and it's not like this is the first year either (how many years post-lockout are we?). If he can't/won't adapt it's either because he's too stubborn or because he's too dumb. Either option seems like it justifies getting rid of him/benching him/press-boxing him

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12-01-2009, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
People forget that one of the challenges for veteran players is playing todays version of sissy rules where so much as touching somebody or just a slight tug or hold is now an infraction.

From Moreau its usually that type of innocuous call that now gets called.
Uhh, there's a reason his nickname is chopper. The guy slashes way too much. I'll partially agree with you that the sticks break easier now and its now an automatic penalty, and sometimes if you even knock the stick out of the hand its a penalty (the absolute worst call in hockey IMO), but these rules have been around for a while now. How does "Chopper" not make the adjustment??? You don't see Brodeur constantly playing the puck in the trapezoid because he's used to the old rules, do you?

Bottom line, taking undisciplined penalties are not what you hope a captain does. Why slash when you can take the whole body and eliminate an entire player - not just his stick - from the play? That's who we need Ethan to be.

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12-01-2009, 01:36 PM
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I think it would be interesting to see like when the penalties were taken. Like dates.

I'm sure there was games where he took like 2 or 3 in a game, then went 2-3 games without taking one. Like Mowzie said, he has improved over the past week or two.

If anyone wants to dig up this info, I'd be happy If not, I'll do it after work.

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Old
12-01-2009, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Marconius View Post
Pretty weak Replacement

95% of the league has managed to adapt to the new rules and it's not like this is the first year either (how many years post-lockout are we?). If he can't/won't adapt it's either because he's too stubborn or because he's too dumb. Either option seems like it justifies getting rid of him/benching him/press-boxing him
ftr I'm not a Moreau fan but just stating what I do suspect is a dynamic. That older players have had more trouble adjusting to the new rules and game. Look around the league and a lot of vets are up front in taking penalty minutes.

Just playing devils advocate here and not trying to defend the behavior as much as postulating how difficult it is for vets to change the behavior.

meh, its a pretty slow day.

ps if the league has adapted as well as you describe to the rule changes then why all the penalties? If you ran some numbers theres been no discernible decrease in penalty minutes, i.e., no sign of adaptation, since the rule changes were put into effect.


Last edited by Replacement: 12-01-2009 at 01:53 PM.
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Old
12-01-2009, 01:44 PM
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You don't see Brodeur constantly playing the puck in the trapezoid because he's used to the old rules, do you?
.
Actually I've seen some of the best goalies in the league continue to occasionally stumble with the trapezoid rule. Where they either take a penalty or come very close to it. Or screw up and give up a scoring chance. Its maybe even a good example of what I'm talking about.

I hear you on the slashes but don't discount its sometimes the best way to break up a play.

Sometimes its a matter of taking a chance disrupting an opponents rush with a slash or risking maybe an odd man rush or chance.

One other thing I should mention is the Oilers get to running around so much in their own end it possibly also elicits some panic and "we gotta do something" I see all of Moreau, Staios, Souray, impacted by this regularly. In fairness when you see the opposition cycle the puck endlessly in your own zone there should be concern. Guys like Moreau end up taking some of their penalties because this team just doesn't compete for the puck nearly good enough.

The best way in hockey to reverse the "tide" of penalties is to possess the puck more than you're chasing it.

The oiler as a club right now are failing miserably at that.

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12-01-2009, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Rin View Post
I think it would be interesting to see like when the penalties were taken. Like dates.

I'm sure there was games where he took like 2 or 3 in a game, then went 2-3 games without taking one. Like Mowzie said, he has improved over the past week or two.

If anyone wants to dig up this info, I'd be happy If not, I'll do it after work.
Here you go.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...eason=20092010

The minutes have declined other than the last game.

Only two games so far with multiple penalties, also one stretch of nine games with only one penalty.

I'll mention as well theres usually a rank order correlation between hits and penalties. Just saying. Players that are physical get more penalties.

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12-01-2009, 02:08 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
ftr I'm not a Moreau fan but just stating what I do suspect is a dynamic. That older players have had more trouble adjusting to the new rules and game. Look around the league and a lot of vets are up front in taking penalty minutes.

Just playing devils advocate here and not trying to defend the behavior as much as postulating how difficult it is for vets to change the behavior.

meh, its a pretty slow day.

ps if the league has adapted as well as you describe to the rule changes then why all the penalties? If you ran some numbers theres been no discernible decrease in penalty minutes, i.e., no sign of adaptation, since the rule changes were put into effect.
I hear what you're saying, and i agree that it's always harder for an old dog to learn new tricks. Maybe it's because I watch the Oilers with a closer eye then other teams (being an Oilers fan), but it seems to me that besides some of the lumbering oxen that have long since fallen off the NHL map, Moreau seems to be among the leaders in failing to wrap his head around the new rules (and I use the term 'new' loosely)

In regards to your second post about panicking once the opposing team cycles for 30 seconds in the Oiler's zone, I'd counter by asking how many of Moreau's penalties actually serve to break the cycle and how many are 100 feet away in the offensive zone?

(Regarding your other point about all the penalties, I can only guess that that is tied to the refs and their 'game management.' Let's face it, if one team takes an inordinate amount of penalties, the even-up calls start flying)


Last edited by Marconius: 12-01-2009 at 02:10 PM. Reason: Addressing one last point
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Old
12-01-2009, 03:10 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilmachine View Post
Player Team Pos GP PIM Minor Major Misc G Misc Match
1 Zack Stortini EDM R 27 63 9 7 1 0 0
2 Jean-Francois Jacques EDM L 20 47 6 3 2 0 0
3 Ethan Moreau EDM L 26 27 11 1 0 0
Stortini has 7 fighting majors, 35 minutes total. So only 28 minutes in non-fight penalties.

Just sayin.

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Old
12-01-2009, 03:15 PM
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Oilers are also 4-2-1 when Zack drops the mitts, he needs to fight every game with a record like that.

Also he got a 10 minute misconduct, so he has only 18 non-fight PIMs. Which includes a few instigators.

On the flip side, the team is 2-6-2 when Moreau goes to the box.

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Old
12-01-2009, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilmachine View Post
I was listening to gregor not long ago, and well,
He pointed something out to the effect; Ethan Moreau wasnít taking those penalties he was known for...

So I was curious to see if this was true, and well, numbers donít lie. What did I find out? Well, he is still a penalty machine..

He leads the oilers with 11 minors,
Although he is third with over all PIMS, the two people above him are as follow :

Player Team Pos GP PIM Minor Major Misc G Misc Match
1 Zack Stortini EDM R 27 63 9 7 1 0 0
2 Jean-Francois Jacques EDM L 20 47 6 3 2 0 0
3 Ethan Moreau EDM L 26 27 11 1 0 0


What I really found interesting is the role the two above him play. Also I still find while watching the games that Moreau takes them at the worst times.

Maybe I am just jaded, and looking for a whipping boy, and this "leader" of ours seems to be a good choice. But really, leadership starts with the C's and A's for the players as well. Things have to change... Ship him out..


Thatís my rant for today, as I advocate the dive for five; the oilers will never be more then what they are, unless they blow this up...

He needs to go. He frustrates me on almost a nightly basis. Whether its a stupid penalty (how can you ONLY take penalties in the offensive zone?), or his brutal soft shots from way outside when coming down the wing. He makes too much, does too little to ever be of any help to this team.

Drive for bottom 5 please.

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Old
12-01-2009, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullterm View Post
Stortini has 7 fighting majors, 35 minutes total. So only 28 minutes in non-fight penalties.

Just sayin.
a game misc. is 10 mins, so really, he has 18 minutes in non fighting penalties...

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2009020297 <-his game misconduct 10 min,.


Last edited by oilmachine: 12-01-2009 at 03:34 PM. Reason: link added
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Old
12-01-2009, 03:52 PM
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I didn't know there was ever an myth that he wasn't taking bad penalties anymore.

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12-01-2009, 05:17 PM
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I didn't know there was ever an myth that he wasn't taking bad penalties anymore.
Me neither. Especially after that beauty in Vancouver. Followed by another beauty penalty by The Guy Who Doesn't Really Do All The Little Things At All When You Think About It.

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12-01-2009, 10:41 PM
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I don't take much of what Greggor says serious. It is kind of funny, Bob on Oilers lunch will say one thing regarding a player(whom opinion I actually respect), and not twenty minutes later Greggor will say something that totally contradicts what Stauffer said.

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12-01-2009, 11:43 PM
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Me neither. Especially after that beauty in Vancouver. Followed by another beauty penalty by The Guy Who Doesn't Really Do All The Little Things At All When You Think About It.
You couldn't possibly be talking about Mr. Corsi Rating, could you?

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12-02-2009, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Unlearning them is easier said than done.

Its easier for a young player to play todays rules as they never got used to the tug or hook or slight hold.

I bet there would be a league wide correlation between age and penalty minutes.
Scott Hartnell - 27
Mike Komisarek - 27
David Backes - 25
Shane O'brien - 26
Ryan Getzlaf - 24
Jarkko Ruutu - 34
Alexandre Burrows - 28
Mike Commodore - 30
Corey Perry - 24
Mattias Ohlund - 33
Ethan Moreau - 34
Evgeny Artyukhin - 26
Pavel Kubina - 32
Boris Valabik - 23
Rob Blake - 39
Dominic Moore - 29
Cody Mcleod - 25
Chris Pronger - 35
Evgeni Malkin - 23
Sheldon Souray - 33
Stephane Robidas - 32
Dany Heatley - 28
Marek Zidlicky - 32
Ruslan Saleu - 35
Tuomo Ruutu - 26
Alexei Kovalev - 36
Scottie Upshall - 26
Daniel Carcillo - 24
Cory Sarich - 31
Zdeno Chara - 32

Here are the top thirty in order of minor penalty leaders from last season. With it is their age. Some interesting things are:
Only five of the top thirty are under the age of 25.
Fourteen of the thirty are age thirty or older.
In the top ten three are thirty or older and two are under twenty five.
Is that enough to conclude that those who got used to the old rules are taking more minor penalties then those who never completely adapted to the water skiing style of hockey? That's up to you to decide, but it is interesting none the less.

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Old
12-02-2009, 01:23 AM
  #23
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Scott Hartnell - 27
Mike Komisarek - 27
David Backes - 25
Shane O'brien - 26
Ryan Getzlaf - 24
Jarkko Ruutu - 34
Alexandre Burrows - 28
Mike Commodore - 30
Corey Perry - 24
Mattias Ohlund - 33
Ethan Moreau - 34
Evgeny Artyukhin - 26
Pavel Kubina - 32
Boris Valabik - 23
Rob Blake - 39
Dominic Moore - 29
Cody Mcleod - 25
Chris Pronger - 35
Evgeni Malkin - 23
Sheldon Souray - 33
Stephane Robidas - 32
Dany Heatley - 28
Marek Zidlicky - 32
Ruslan Saleu - 35
Tuomo Ruutu - 26
Alexei Kovalev - 36
Scottie Upshall - 26
Daniel Carcillo - 24
Cory Sarich - 31
Zdeno Chara - 32

Here are the top thirty in order of minor penalty leaders from last season. With it is their age. Some interesting things are:
Only five of the top thirty are under the age of 25.
Fourteen of the thirty are age thirty or older.
In the top ten three are thirty or older and two are under twenty five.
Is that enough to conclude that those who got used to the old rules are taking more minor penalties then those who never completely adapted to the water skiing style of hockey? That's up to you to decide, but it is interesting none the less.
Thank you for the digging kind sir.

Interesting little sample and with a mean age of 28 I see. Nobody younger than 23. Few if any in the top 30 that broke into the NHL after the rule changes.

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Old
12-02-2009, 01:33 AM
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Thank you for the digging kind sir.

Interesting little sample and with a mean age of 28 I see. Nobody younger than 23. Few if any in the top 30 that broke into the NHL after the rule changes.
Ya I found that interesting too, but some things need to be considered. What is the mean average age in the NHL? How many guys are currently playing that broke in and are regulars after the lock out compared to those playing that came before the lock out. Too late for me to do much more digging as I'm off to bed, but they are things to wonder about.

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12-02-2009, 02:19 AM
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You couldn't possibly be talking about Mr. Corsi Rating, could you?
Me?

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