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Oilers In Need Of Shakeup? Plus 30 Thoughts.

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Old
12-01-2009, 08:51 PM
  #26
oilerfanatic
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i completely agree...our cap situation is what screws us more than othe poor teams...i'm not expecting competitive hockey from this franchise for a long long time..

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12-01-2009, 08:54 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
This team just needs Taylor Hall or Tyler Seguin.

Period. Throw in Eberle and eventually MPS and you got something most likely.

The other stuff will take care of itself. Moreau, Pisani, Staois, Comrie, Nilsson are off the books after next season or sooner and if you want Souray and Visnovsky and Grebeshkov are tradable at just about any time too.
Nicely said. This sure looks like its gonna be a lousy year, but I see no need for Tambellini to force any issues. Quinn needs to keep his thoughts more in-house and help Tambellini to put as much lipstick as possible on a few pigs.

IMO, Tambellini needs to be opportunistic and needs to put on as brave a face as possible in the meantime. He doesn't look better in my eyes if he "calls a spade a spade" in media statements. I think we need to give the guy a bit of credit that he's got some idea what's going on but hasn't shown his cards yet.

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12-01-2009, 08:58 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by PenzOil View Post
cap relief for what? If we could get cap relief of 5M I would want another Souray on this team.. We need to rid ourselves of Gilbert, Horcoff, Staios, Pisani, Moreau, Nilsson contracts so we could get a couple more impact players like Souray on the team.
+1000

people talk about cap relief all the time, but you still need players... cap relief only does you any good if you can attract UFAs, which we all know isn't the case with the oilers.... get rid of staios, pisani, moreau and nilsson.... that will give you more than enough money to resign the few good young players we have.... i would include horcoff in the list of players to get rid of, but we all know that nobody in their right mind will take horcoff off our hands with his ridiculous contract

dropping staios, nilsson, moreau and pisani would save us around 8-9 million in salary before replacement players are accounted for.... which is plenty to resign gagner and grebeshkov, and possibly cogliano if we choose to keep him

the problem though, is that only pisani is coming off the books this offseason, the rest are still under contract.... unless we start to waive/bury some of these crazy contracts, we'll never be able to move on... in reality, we're gonna have to ride out the stupid lowe signing, hope that one of eberle/MPS is the real deal, hope that gagner can turn into the 2nd line center we need, hope that penner can continue to play this way for the next 3 years and hope that we pick up a top-3 blue chip player at this years draft

lots of hopes, and not many "for sure" bets.... this team is in real, real trouble for at least the next 2 seasons

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12-01-2009, 09:00 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by hillbillypriest View Post
Nicely said. This sure looks like its gonna be a lousy year, but I see no need for Tambellini to force any issues. Quinn needs to keep his thoughts more in-house and help Tambellini to put as much lipstick as possible on a few pigs.

IMO, Tambellini needs to be opportunistic and needs to put on as brave a face as possible in the meantime. He doesn't look better in my eyes if he "calls a spade a spade" in media statements. I think we need to give the guy a bit of credit that he's got some idea what's going on but hasn't shown his cards yet.
True, but they do need to actively shed some salary. Staios, Moreau and Nilsson are the prime targets. One of Gilbert, Grebeshkov, Visnovsky or Souray needs to be moved too.

Vishnovsky has the best contract, then Souray. Gilbert's is the worst. I think Grebshkov has good value and would be quite attractive. I wouldn't expect much back other than a good, cheap forward and maybe a 2nd rounder. Shedding salary is needed.

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12-01-2009, 09:21 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
This team just needs Taylor Hall or Tyler Seguin.

Period. Throw in Eberle and eventually MPS and you got something most likely.

The other stuff will take care of itself. Moreau, Pisani, Staois, Comrie, Nilsson are off the books after next season or sooner and if you want Souray and Visnovsky and Grebeshkov are tradable at just about any time too.

Thats a start, but it needs more than that!! One player, even one star isnt going to fix this mess....

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12-01-2009, 09:23 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM View Post
True, but they do need to actively shed some salary. Staios, Moreau and Nilsson are the prime targets. One of Gilbert, Grebeshkov, Visnovsky or Souray needs to be moved too.

Vishnovsky has the best contract, then Souray. Gilbert's is the worst. I think Grebshkov has good value and would be quite attractive. I wouldn't expect much back other than a good, cheap forward and maybe a 2nd rounder. Shedding salary is needed.
No disagreement that the Oilers need to shed salary. I take some issue with your "actively shed" qualifier.

I'm pretty confident that Tambellini can count. I think Lowe can too, but he made some mulligan worthy decisions when the words "economic crisis" were not yet in the lexicon. Katz' desire to make a splash right off the hop with a Hossa homerun that a whole lot of space needed to be cleared out for didn't help much either.

For better or worse, Tambellini needs to play the cards he has been dealt, and that means he needs to publicly put on the bravest face possible on a bad situation to maximize the deadline deals he can make. It may make a few people around here feel better about him if he becomes Mr. Candid like Quinn, but doing that does not serve his team's interest. I've still got a bit of faith in Tambellini left in me.

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Old
12-01-2009, 09:23 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by LawnDemon View Post
Good analogy although, in this case, it's possible you could take off an old pair of assless leather chaps and replace them with a fresh new pair of walmart trousers. Sure, the trousers are nothing special but at least they don't leave you (or your team) so exposed in the back end.


I think his flaws are over exaggerated given what his salary is and what he should be -- the 6/7D with regular press box time.

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12-01-2009, 09:24 PM
  #33
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Learn from who? Moreau? Staios?

Please...
Well, as the saying goes, it's better to learn from someone else's mistakes.

Right?


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Old
12-01-2009, 09:26 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
+1000

people talk about cap relief all the time, but you still need players... cap relief only does you any good if you can attract UFAs, which we all know isn't the case with the oilers.... get rid of staios, pisani, moreau and nilsson.... that will give you more than enough money to resign the few good young players we have.... i would include horcoff in the list of players to get rid of, but we all know that nobody in their right mind will take horcoff off our hands with his ridiculous contract

dropping staios, nilsson, moreau and pisani would save us around 8-9 million in salary before replacement players are accounted for.... which is plenty to resign gagner and grebeshkov, and possibly cogliano if we choose to keep him

the problem though, is that only pisani is coming off the books this offseason, the rest are still under contract.... unless we start to waive/bury some of these crazy contracts, we'll never be able to move on... in reality, we're gonna have to ride out the stupid lowe signing, hope that one of eberle/MPS is the real deal, hope that gagner can turn into the 2nd line center we need, hope that penner can continue to play this way for the next 3 years and hope that we pick up a top-3 blue chip player at this years draft

lots of hopes, and not many "for sure" bets.... this team is in real, real trouble for at least the next 2 seasons

I've got a little different take on it. Rather than hoping, why not plan it? Its not difficult to keep this team in the basement for the next few years. We are not signing big name free agents, even if we were I would argue that you cant build a winner that way without talented kids. Let the contracts playout, or get what you can before they do. Keeping picking up marquee talent in the draft. Not guaranteed, but it truly is our only option...

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12-01-2009, 09:31 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by hillbillypriest View Post
No disagreement that the Oilers need to shed salary. I take some issue with your "actively shed" qualifier.

I'm pretty confident that Tambellini can count. I think Lowe can too, but he made some mulligan worthy decisions when the words "economic crisis" were not yet in the lexicon. Katz' desire to make a splash right off the hop with a Hossa homerun that a whole lot of space needed to be cleared out for didn't help much either.

For better or worse, Tambellini needs to play the cards he has been dealt, and that means he needs to publicly put on the bravest face possible on a bad situation to maximize the deadline deals he can make. It may make a few people around here feel better about him if he becomes Mr. Candid like Quinn, but doing that does not serve his team's interest. I've still got a bit of faith in Tambellini left in me.
I wish I could share even your limited optimism but the Comrie and Khabibulin signings leave me scratching my head.

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12-01-2009, 09:40 PM
  #36
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The positives I see this year are:

- Penner looks like he's taking on a greater leadership role, possible new core beginning here
- Newer players like Stone, JFJ, Gagner and Cogs, and Smid to a point, taking over previous roles of the old guard
- Eberle and others in the minors looking like they are chomping at the bit to make this team next year
- still a strong core of veterans with Souray, Visnosky, and I hate to say it Horky Dorky to pass the reigns to the kids
- new coaching staff and team attitude that will take time to instill, but will be well worth the wait when the kids start to click
- possible high draft choice this year if the injuries continue to unfold (Horcoff's shoulder, etc)
- new rink on the horizon along with an Edmonton owner who loves the city and team

That's about all the positives I can think of right now, but they just may out weigh the negatives

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12-01-2009, 09:42 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
I wish I could share even your limited optimism but the Comrie and Khabibulin signings leave me scratching my head.
What's your problem with Comrie? If not for the sickness this year, I think he's pretty well priced, likely to have a positive value at deadline, and at worst case, UFA next summer.

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12-01-2009, 09:45 PM
  #38
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What's your problem with Comrie? If not for the sickness this year, I think he's pretty well priced, likely to have a positive value at deadline, and at worst case, UFA next summer.
Still can't see what the point of signing him was.

While he easily disposed of, did he bring anything to the party the Oilers needed?

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12-01-2009, 09:46 PM
  #39
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What's your problem with Comrie? If not for the sickness this year, I think he's pretty well priced, likely to have a positive value at deadline, and at worst case, UFA next summer.
^^^ totally agree^^^, at first I didn't like it, but now I see it as a bargin. One positive Not mentioned yet, is boy will we have thick skins after getting harassed endlessly for the next 2-3yrs by Calgary and Vancouver fans!

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12-01-2009, 09:57 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by PenzOil View Post
cap relief for what? If we could get cap relief of 5M I would want another Souray on this team.. We need to rid ourselves of Gilbert, Horcoff, Staios, Pisani, Moreau, Nilsson contracts so we could get a couple more impact players like Souray on the team.
Cap space is a manageable asset like players or draft picks. Unfortunately after 15 or so years of the team being run on a shoestring budget, the fans came to expect the Oilers to spend to the cap limit every year. The EIG tried to do this for a time, and Katz "pledged" to spend to the limit every year when trying to woo the fans a couple of years ago, but this is faulty logic (and has been from the start). If a team doesn't have the players worth spending big bucks on, then they shouldn't be up against the cap. There is no shame in not spending money on players if your team doesn't have the appropriate talent for it. I think (or hope) people get that now, but that certainly wasn't the case in '05 when the words "small market franchise" was still burning in our ears.

As for the players you mentioned, I'd keep Gilbert for now, but I agree with you on the others. If you can find players who can do the same job for less money, then by all means get them. Let's keep Horcoff out of the discussion however, because no one would take that contract at this point and IMO you're better off keeping him for now. As for Souray, he is a valuable commodity, and if you believe in "selling high" then now is the time to do it (actually, last summer was the best time, but whatever). If you really believe in starting from fresh then there's no point to keeping a diminishing asset like Souray, who's only going to get older and slower at 5.4M/year as this team tries to turn things around and every reason to strike while the iron is still (relatively) hot.

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12-01-2009, 10:04 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Still can't see what the point of signing him was.

While he easily disposed of, did he bring anything to the party the Oilers needed?
On pace for 25+ goals and played ill in a few of his 16 games so far, so it's not unreasonable to assume he couldn't have cracked 30. How many Oilers not named Penner are on that kind of goal pace? No one, but Brule is close. He goes to the right areas to score goals, and many of the Oilers' "top six" guys that are counted on for secondary scoring don't do that. Heck, they don't score goals period.

He plays the half boards well on the powerplay and should be a regular contributor there with Hemsky being out once he gets healthy.

Most importantly, I wanted him here to replace Nilsson; a guy that won't even crack this lineup, with as many injuries as we have. Useless doesn't even accurately describe Nilsson's play this year.

The real question is, what is Nilsson and his $2 million cap hit still doing here? Comrie should have outright replaced him at training camp.

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12-01-2009, 10:06 PM
  #42
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On pace for 25+ goals and played ill in a few of his 16 games so far, so it's not unreasonable to assume he couldn't have cracked 30. How many Oilers not named Penner are on that kind of goal pace? No one, but Brule is close. He goes to the right areas to score goals, and many of the Oilers' "top six" guys that are counted on for secondary scoring don't do that. Heck, they don't score goals period.

He plays the half boards well on the powerplay and should be a regular contributor there with Hemsky being out once he gets healthy.

Most importantly, I wanted him here to replace Nilsson; a guy that won't even crack this lineup, with as many injuries as we have. Useless doesn't even accurately describe Nilsson's play this year.

The real question is, what is Nilsson and his $2 million cap hit still doing here? Comrie should have outright replaced him at training camp.
That I can buy but Comrie obviously, as you've stated, wasn't Nilsson's replacement.

Having both on the roster is just another example of poor asset management.

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12-01-2009, 10:08 PM
  #43
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Still can't see what the point of signing him was.

While he easily disposed of, did he bring anything to the party the Oilers needed?
By what criteria should we be measuring Steve Tambellini's summer? On the basis of what he did to make the Oilers competitve this year, or on the basis of what he did to improve the team long term. Extreme example: if Tambellini traded Gagner for someone who would be better than him this year, would that have been good? I'm getting a bit frustrated that some people around here seem to be both arguing that the Oilers need to think long term and endure the short term pain of a rebuild but at the same time point out at every opportunity that the pain the team is going through is evidence of "more of the same" etc.

Personally, I think that Tambellini had no illusions this summer that he had enough degrees of freedom (i.e. capspace) to make the Oilers true contenders this year. I think he thought Heatley would be an upgrade both short and long term, but the deal was pretty complicated in terms of salary in and out.

Once Heatley was out of the picture, a move like signing Comrie has no particular significance other than it gains an asset and probably made the team better than it would have been with an existing roster player or AHL promotion. So yes, I think signing Comrie did bring more in than enough to make the move.

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12-01-2009, 10:10 PM
  #44
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That I can buy but Comrie obviously, as you've stated, wasn't Nilsson's replacement.

Having both on the roster is just another example of poor asset management.
Agreed. At the time of the signing I was hoping that Nilsson would be shipped out. This way you're upgrading your team at a lower cost...nothing wrong with that.

But yet Nilsson is still here - and likely won't play on Thursday.

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12-01-2009, 10:13 PM
  #45
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The real question is, what is Nilsson and his $2 million cap hit still doing here? Comrie should have outright replaced him at training camp.
Not getting you. Since Tambellini doesn't get a do over on signing Nilsson to his present contract. Assuming nobody offered to take Nilsson off his hands an the end of training camp, isn't it a better idea to see what he can do to improve his value unless and until this year's cap forces you to put him on waivers?

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12-01-2009, 10:24 PM
  #46
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Agreed. At the time of the signing I was hoping that Nilsson would be shipped out. This way you're upgrading your team at a lower cost...nothing wrong with that.

But yet Nilsson is still here - and likely won't play on Thursday.
If everyone had been healthy at the start of the season my guess is you would have got your wish (btw, it was my wish too). If you remember, Nilsson was a healthy scratch on opening night. The wheels were probably already in motion (if Pisani had been healthy, my guess is Nilsson wouldn't have even made it to opening night), but then someone got hurt. And then someone else. And so on, and so on. Which brings us to today. At this point, when both the Oilers and the Falcons are struggling to find healthy bodies, there's really no reason to do anything with Nilsson. However, if and when that ever changes I do expect Nilsson to be on the first plane outta here.

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12-01-2009, 10:25 PM
  #47
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By what criteria should we be measuring Steve Tambellini's summer? On the basis of what he did to make the Oilers competitve this year, or on the basis of what he did to improve the team long term. Extreme example: if Tambellini traded Gagner for someone who would be better than him this year, would that have been good? I'm getting a bit frustrated that some people around here seem to be both arguing that the Oilers need to think long term and endure the short term pain of a rebuild but at the same time point out at every opportunity that the pain the team is going through is evidence of "more of the same" etc.

Personally, I think that Tambellini had no illusions this summer that he had enough degrees of freedom (i.e. capspace) to make the Oilers true contenders this year. I think he thought Heatley would be an upgrade both short and long term, but the deal was pretty complicated in terms of salary in and out.

Once Heatley was out of the picture, a move like signing Comrie has no particular significance other than it gains an asset and probably made the team better than it would have been with an existing roster player or AHL promotion. So yes, I think signing Comrie did bring more in than enough to make the move.

IMHO opinion he did neither and, with the Khabibulin signing likely made the team worse in the long term because the odds of Khabibulin playing enough to warrant that contract were exceedingly low.

If Khabibulin outperforms by a significant margin what Roloson could have done on the 2 year contract (for much less money) he was seeking it's a win.

To me, Comrie is not neither an asset or a liability. By what margin would he exceed any other player getting his minutes? Somewhat perhaps but he's far from the 30 goal scorer he used to be.
His value as an asset at the trade dealine was likely cemented over the summer when he had zero interest from anyone.

And, I guess I don't understand your frustration with those who want the Oilers to think long term and yet gripe about the short term.

I see absolutely no evidence the Oilers are thinking long term at all. None.

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12-01-2009, 10:29 PM
  #48
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The article was a good read and kinda stripped the Oilers to their naked, vulnerable frame without insulting the franchise like many other out-of-town articles tend to do.

I've always seen cap space as something to not get overly excited about. When it's there, you usually only have a few select options available either via trade or, more likely, FA. Whether or not those options are worthy dictates whether or not that cap space is well spent. We all know cap space burned many holes into K-Lowe's back pocket, so it might be a good thing we have no cap space next summer if K-Lowe gets the itch and starts pressuring Tambo to make some moves.

The team should fail on its own. Tanking should never be in the vocabulary of any real fan. It would put our organization in yet another unfavorable light and there's no security it will pay off either. If trades are made, they're made because that player no longer fits in the long term plans of the team, not because we're trying to get a #1 draft pick.

Shakeup is definitely needed. But to imply that tanking is the only way to do it is only for those fortunate enough to be handed a generational player from the get-go.

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12-01-2009, 10:30 PM
  #49
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That's true if you're talking about trade whispers, rumors, or just generally what teams are discussing, but just because a guy has contacts, it doesn't mean he knows anything about hockey.

I'll listen if a guy like Pierre LeBrun, Bob MacKenzie, Eric D., or Elliotte Friedman say that Team X is going into a complete rebuild and are looking for size up front, etc., but not necessarily if they say that Team X should do those things.
Oh I agree with you completely, but I value their opinion as well and tend to agree. Was also responding to the poster who called them "stupid".


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12-01-2009, 10:32 PM
  #50
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.

To me, Comrie is not neither an asset or a liability. By what margin would he exceed any other player getting his minutes? Somewhat perhaps but he's far from the 30 goal scorer he used to be.
Over 82 games he would have been on pace for a 25 goal season.

As a scorer he's really not that different.

He's a slower "player", but as a scorer he's still there based on those numbers.

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