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Old
12-02-2009, 11:53 AM
  #101
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I guess I'm a cynic here ( who would have guessed

I don't think he gets it.

If he goes whale hunting again next summer, I'm done.
Actually, I think he does get it. I just think he really doesn't know what to do. I think we are seeing why it took so long for him to get a GM gig before he go the Oiler job.

Again, as a fan, I think I judge the GM based on what he has done. So far, not a whole lot. The damning factor for me is the amount of time he wasted on chasing Heatley this summer when it was clear to pretty much everyone that Heatley was never going to play for Edmonton. But hey, if that was all Katz, then I will take it back.

I see the Habs made another deal today, albeit minor. I really find it hard to believe that Tambellini can't make these types of deals.

Until he does something (and not just at the deadline or in the offseason - any GM can make a deal then), I will have my doubts about his ability as GM.

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12-02-2009, 11:59 AM
  #102
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Which would you rather have in 3 years? A 36 year old defenseman or the assets you could get for him by trading to a contender at the deadline?
How about keep him so he can help the young guys in our system?

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12-02-2009, 12:11 PM
  #103
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How about keep him so he can help the young guys in our system?
You don't need to pay that kind of coin to get a veteran defenseman to mentor your guys.

Vancouver has Scheneider for $1.5M.

The Kings have Sean O'Donnell for $1.25m.

As just two examples.

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12-02-2009, 12:22 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
You don't need to pay that kind of coin to get a veteran defenseman to mentor your guys.

Vancouver has Scheneider for $1.5M.

The Kings have Sean O'Donnell for $1.25m.

As just two examples.
Nice choice of teams....

Who exactly are those two helping?

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12-02-2009, 12:27 PM
  #105
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Nice choice of teams....

Who exactly are those two helping?
It has been mentioned that they kept O'Donnell around to mentor Doughty

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12-02-2009, 12:30 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by NotBad View Post
Nice choice of teams....

Who exactly are those two helping?
Their young defensemen include Edler, O'Brien, Matt Greene, Doughty and Jack Johnson.

Here is an article if you're interested.

http://kings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=506586

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12-02-2009, 12:37 PM
  #107
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I actually think Staios is about the same as O'Donnell and keeping him around and trading Souray and Visnovsky for picks and prospects is probably the way to go.

We got Staios at 2.2 next year and after that he would probably get around 1.5 a year or so and he is the same work your ass off type of guy that young players need to see on your team.

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12-02-2009, 12:50 PM
  #108
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I actually think Staios is about the same as O'Donnell and keeping him around and trading Souray and Visnovsky for picks and prospects is probably the way to go.

We got Staios at 2.2 next year and after that he would probably get around 1.5 a year or so and he is the same work your ass off type of guy that young players need to see on your team.
It would also accelerate the race to the bottom. We have so many holes to fill, it is hard to imagine how it could happen. Especially if we get rid of Souray and Visnovsky. We will have a complete team to rebuild. Defense, Forward and Goalie. We may have to skim the bottom for four or five straight years. No way Katz is on board with that. These are dark days, and there is hard to see a light at the end of the tunnel.


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12-02-2009, 01:00 PM
  #109
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make no mistake about it.... we all need to be clear on this point....

the oilers are not making the playoffs this year, not by a long shot

the likelihood of the oilers getting the (at minimum) 68 additional points they will need to make the playoffs is essentially non-existent... its simply not happening, not a chance... even if hemsky wasn't hurt, they *still* wouldn't have a chance.... with hemsky out for the season, the idea of the oilers making the playoffs is laughable
It isn't laughable. It just isn't.

I actually think the oilers shoudl dive, there is no better time or chance to do it. Hememr is done, even if we make the show we aren't making any noise in it.

however Tambi won't fold yet, don't ask me why or who made up the rule, but it just seems like you can't. He has to try and win, sadly I think the oilers end up right in the mix for thep playoffs.

If there was a year to tank, it is this year. THAt is 100% on the fact the HEmmer is done. The oilers won't do it and will be in the mix for the playoffs, which is unfortunate.

Unless of course a few more key players go down, which actually is quite possible.

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12-02-2009, 01:12 PM
  #110
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It would also accelerate the race to the bottom. We have so many holes to fill, it is hard to imagine how the will be filled. Especially if we get rid of Souray and Visnovsky. We will have a complete team to rebuild. Defense, Forward and Goalie. We may have to skim the bottom for four or five straight years. No way Katz is on board with that. These are dark days, and there is hard to see a light at the end of the tunnel.
I guess it really depends if you believe all the Oiler Prospects we have drafted will never perform at this level.

While I suppose it is possible. I would still rather believe that Eberle and MSP are going to develop into top 6 players for us in a year or 2.

Thats also not to say that Gagner,Cogliano,Smid,Peckham,Plante and company will also continue an upward curve.

While I don't think we are as bad as having to go through a 5 year rebuild cycle finishing bottom this year and possibly next year could net us 2 top players and by the 3rd year we could be on that upward trend to respectability. I think it took Chicago about 3 years of being bad then Kane and Toews were both in the line up and they started the cycle of winning. Those two goes to go along with Seabrook,Keith,Barker,Bolland,Bfuguilien and Ladd. Sharp was only 25 at the time also.

So it can work counted on that say we get Hall this year and Nugent-Hopkins next year and they both turn out to be great players which is no guarantee

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12-02-2009, 01:18 PM
  #111
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I guess it really depends if you believe all the Oiler Prospects we have drafted will never perform at this level.

While I suppose it is possible. I would still rather believe that Eberle and MSP are going to develop into top 6 players for us in a year or 2.

Thats also not to say that Gagner,Cogliano,Smid,Peckham,Plante and company will also continue an upward curve.

While I don't think we are as bad as having to go through a 5 year rebuild cycle finishing bottom this year and possibly next year could net us 2 top players and by the 3rd year we could be on that upward trend to respectability. I think it took Chicago about 3 years of being bad then Kane and Toews were both in the line up and they started the cycle of winning. Those two goes to go along with Seabrook,Keith,Barker,Bolland,Bfuguilien and Ladd. Sharp was only 25 at the time also.

So it can work counted on that say we get Hall this year and Nugent-Hopkins next year and they both turn out to be great players which is no guarantee
We cant really count on Grebs or Gilbert. Chorney, Peckham and some of the D prospects could step up, but that is a pretty low percentage bet. I guess if we can get a Fleury, Crosby and a Malkin, with our picks, defense might not be so much of an issue. We are going to need a goalie, Im not confident that will be JDD. That leaves DD. I dont think that will be good enough.

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12-02-2009, 01:26 PM
  #112
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If we do get Hall or Seguin we will need cap room three years from draft day, not now.

Khabby expires that summer, so does Visnovsky, and Horcoff by then might be movable (actual salary is 4 mill + 3 mill for his two seasons) or you can probably buy him out at that point. You could maybe clear 13 million in cap there.

So at least that's a positive.

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12-02-2009, 01:27 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
We cant really count on Grebs or Gilbert. Chorney, Peckham and some of the D prospects could step up, but that is a pretty low percentage bet. I guess if we can get a Fleury, Crosby and a Malkin, with our picks, defense might not be so much of an issue. We are going to need a goalie, Im not confident that will be JDD. That leaves DD. I dont think that will be good enough.
I think thats kind of short sighted. Many people never believed Smid was going to be as good as he has been this year and to say someone like Chorney or Peckham will not continue to develop is a poor decision to say the least. Grebs and Gilbert are probably at a crossroads and to be honest It would not bug me to see either of them depart as they are not the type of player I like to have anyway.

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12-02-2009, 01:34 PM
  #114
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If we do get Hall or Seguin we will need cap room three years from draft day, not now.

Khabby expires that summer, so does Visnovsky, and Horcoff by then might be movable (actual salary is 4 mill + 3 mill for his two seasons) or you can probably buy him out at that point. You could maybe clear 13 million in cap there.

So at least that's a positive.
Do you really want to hold off on a rebuild for another three years?

Wouldn't it make more sense to start cashing in aging assets now while they still have value?

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12-02-2009, 01:37 PM
  #115
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Do you really want to hold off on a rebuild for another three years?

Wouldn't it make more sense to start cashing in aging assets now while they still have value?
If you get a Taylor Hall, odds are the rebuild is done. The rest is just gravy.

Having those other contracts on the books may actually be a blessing in disguise at that point because it'll prevent a situation like what Chicago has done and spent a **** ton of money on Campbell and Huet recklessly just because they had the cap room, rather than being forced to not spend.

If we get Hall or Seguin and you add Eberle to the roster next year too ... then three years from then is when you need to have salary coming off the books.

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12-02-2009, 01:37 PM
  #116
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So here's a thought:

June 25th, 2011.

Let's say the Oilers do the usual and end up with the 18th pick. The Isles are at the tail-end of their rebuild having drafted 9th, 7th, 1st and wherever they pick this year.

The 2011 Draft looks to be something like this year- a clear top three (Adam Larsson, Sean Couturier, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins) and after that a steep drop-off in terms of impact and time to NHL.

The Isles are picking 4th or 5th. Wang is in a crunch, because his team has not been close to the playoffs since 2006-07 and has not been a factor in them since Pat LaFontaine.

Needing a marketable product and knowing a pick outside the top three doesn't help for at least two years, Snow calls up Tambo and says he'll take Penner, Hemsky and Souray off our hands for his pick. They'd have the cap room to do it and that probably makes them a playoff team right then.

Knowing we could sign only two of them but lose all three if traded, do you trade Penner, Souray and Hemsky prior to their final contract year for a top-five pick in 2011 and a first in a subsequent year?

The Isles would actually be scary on paper:

Penner-Tavares-Hemsky
Moulson-Bailey-Okposo
Joensuu-Nielsen-Hunter

Streit-Souray
x-x
de Haan-Hamonic

DiPietro


Meanwhile, we'd be in full rebuild mode. A top 10 pick this year, a top four pick in '11, maybe a first overall in '12, plus our young core.

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12-02-2009, 02:01 PM
  #117
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I think thats kind of short sighted. Many people never believed Smid was going to be as good as he has been this year and to say someone like Chorney or Peckham will not continue to develop is a poor decision to say the least. Grebs and Gilbert are probably at a crossroads and to be honest It would not bug me to see either of them depart as they are not the type of player I like to have anyway.
I am not saying there is no hope for Chorney, Peckham, Plante, Motin, etc... I am saying that if we count on it then we may be disappointed. The main point is that we have to address every area of the team if we are talking about putting Vis and Souray on the Midnight Express.

I believe we have some promising young prospects already, and by adding top tier picks we will have a brighter future. But it will take a long time, and I dont believe the owner and or management is interested in what we are talking about.

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12-02-2009, 02:17 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I am not saying there is no hope for Chorney, Peckham, Plante, Motin, etc... I am saying that if we count on it then we may be disappointed. The main point is that we have to address every area of the team if we are talking about putting Vis and Souray on the Midnight Express.

I believe we have some promising young prospects already, and by adding top tier picks we will have a brighter future. But it will take a long time, and I dont believe the owner and or management is interested in what we are talking about.
This is what I think. I think the Owner and Management are alot smarter then we give them credit for and I think they think the majority of Oiler fans will not suffer an out and out rebuild. I think they believe the average joe fan will abandon the team.

I think the hardcore fans like the ones that post here can understand a rebuild. I am not so sure if joe sixpack does though.

I can already see people writing the newspaper screaming that we were promised a winner and we would not sell off players or be a farm team for the rest of the league.

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12-02-2009, 02:18 PM
  #119
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I think its hard to defend Tambo's record thus far.

As Much as I liked Cole the O' Sullivan deal is I think a good move going forward.

The Kotalik acquisition I'm still shaking my head at. Especially considering we acquire the player and then have no subsequent interest. Is this Tambo's version of the Nedved chacha?

Khabibulin. Why? What need that the team had did this service? We gave up Roli, a perfectly adequate goalie, and are now paying 1.25M more longterm for Khabi, who is arguably less healthy than Roli. Islanders get Roli for 2 yrs(right time frame) and Roli doing fantastic on the island.
I can't comprehend how a GM, who inherited a team thats already cash strapped, and with gaping holes in the lineup, somehow figures its necessary to "fill" one of the areas that was fine, and spend more money doing that.
Friedman in the link is indicating Khabi is one of the albatross contracts. I don't disagree. Again it seems the last thing a prudent GM would do given this situation is add another longterm untradeable. With no pressing need to make that move in the first place.

Comrie-Already enough been stated but redundant talent and really on a team of developing young players and on a team that has had attitude and psyche problems THIS is the forward you select? Was Anson Carter busy this year..
Kotalik - I think we need to acknowledge that there are risks with every trade and the best thing you can really do is try and minimize that risk. The Oilers still had a chance to try and sneak into the playoffs and decided to get a shooter (which they definitely needed at the time) for a low 2nd round pick. Kotalik has a history with Hemsky which they tried to capitalize on as well. I said it was a reasonable gamble at the time of the deal, and therefore I still say that's the case now, even if the 20/20 of hindsight makes the deal not look so good now.

Khabibulin - I literally was overcome by grief and had to lay down when I heard about this signing. It's nothing personal against Khabby - in fact I've been a fan of his since his days in the Peg - but deal was a huge letdown for me. I was hoping for some bold step in the right direction, like going after Craig Anderson or, since I prefer trades to UFA's, getting Halak out of Montreal. If none of those deals looked feasible, then I wanted a one or two year deal. Roli would have been fine, but if that wasn't possible there were other goalies available. Instead, they overpaid on a long term deal on an over 35 year old player with a history of injuries. To this day I am absolutely dumbfounded as to what the hell happened or what the hell Tambo was thinking.

Comrie - again, this was a gamble, and in this case, I like it. The Oilers need a shooter, need a skill player who isn't afraid to show some grit (even if he is undersized). They got one at a cheap contract, and the 1 year term allows them to walk away this summer if need be. Add in the prodigal son factor (which I believe has helped the Oilers boost their rep somewhat among other players and their agents), and signing Comrie for a year becomes a no-brainer for me.

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12-02-2009, 02:47 PM
  #120
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This is what I think. I think the Owner and Management are alot smarter then we give them credit for and I think they think the majority of Oiler fans will not suffer an out and out rebuild. I think they believe the average joe fan will abandon the team.

I think the hardcore fans like the ones that post here can understand a rebuild. I am not so sure if joe sixpack does though.

I can already see people writing the newspaper screaming that we were promised a winner and we would not sell off players or be a farm team for the rest of the league.
I dont know about that. They would see the fan backlash as a major con for sure but I dont think they believe a major restructuring is necessary. Would it be safe to say that Katz would want a positive legacy as an owner of his favourite team? If they believe that we do in fact need a rebuild and yet they capitulate due to fear of fan reaction, how is that going to look?

The rebuild could be marketed to minimize damage. You could look at discounts on tickets for sth. You could offer 50% off tickets for long time sth for the first playoff run. You tell them to come out and watch the stars of the future, (Eberle, MPS, etc) I think the long time sth would be ok with a short term rebuild. The window is perfect really. We develop kids and in three or four years we will be done with most of the ridiculous contracts that we have. It would be perfect.

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12-02-2009, 02:49 PM
  #121
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If they get a Taylor Hall or Tyler Seguin and those guys are even 3/4 as good as their hype, the Oilers won't have any problems selling tickets for the next 10+ years most likely. Even for the rest of this year, a good portion of the tickets are already spoken for anyway.

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12-02-2009, 03:06 PM
  #122
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If you get a Taylor Hall, odds are the rebuild is done. The rest is just gravy.

Having those other contracts on the books may actually be a blessing in disguise at that point because it'll prevent a situation like what Chicago has done and spent a **** ton of money on Campbell and Huet recklessly just because they had the cap room, rather than being forced to not spend.

If we get Hall or Seguin and you add Eberle to the roster next year too ... then three years from then is when you need to have salary coming off the books.
There are more holes on the roster than Hall and Eberle can fill.

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12-02-2009, 03:07 PM
  #123
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I dont know about that. They would see the fan backlash as a major con for sure but I dont think they believe a major restructuring is necessary. Would it be safe to say that Katz would want a positive legacy as an owner of his favourite team? If they believe that we do in fact need a rebuild and yet they capitulate due to fear of fan reaction, how is that going to look?

The rebuild could be marketed to minimize damage. You could look at discounts on tickets for sth. You could offer 50% off tickets for long time sth for the first playoff run. You tell them to come out and watch the stars of the future, (Eberle, MPS, etc) I think the long time sth would be ok with a short term rebuild. The window is perfect really. We develop kids and in three or four years we will be done with most of the ridiculous contracts that we have. It would be perfect.

Just to give you an example even with hardcore fans is when I joined these boards the biggest thing everyone brought up was

Not being a second rate organization that could not get the top players to stay here because we could not afford too.

I am not an Edmontonian but I guess the end of the Dynasty days and the whole 90s bad team trading away its top players when they got older left a pretty bad taste in everyone's mouth

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12-02-2009, 03:19 PM
  #124
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There are more holes on the roster than Hall and Eberle can fill.
No, but they fill the main holes in the franchise (yes, franchise, not just roster, a roster is nothing ... our roster today is completely different from three years ago, and will again be very different three years from now).

The other stuff ... checking line center and physical role players ... that can be added over time through various channels. That's like worrying about flower arrangements when the bride is no where to be found.

There is no rebuild as far as I'm concerned if you don't get that Hall/Seguin type player. Don't care if its a 5 year rebuild or a 5 month rebuild.

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12-02-2009, 03:25 PM
  #125
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No, but they fill the main holes in the franchise (yes, franchise, not just roster, a roster is nothing ... our roster today is completely different from three years ago, and will again be very different three years from now).

The other stuff ... checking line center and physical role players ... that can be added over time through various channels. That's like worrying about flower arrangements when the bride is no where to be found.

There is no rebuild as far as I'm concerned if you don't get that Hall/Seguin type player. Don't care if its a 5 year rebuild or a 5 month rebuild.
Oh, I agree completely that you need an elite player or two but a smart GM will try and maximize the value of what he has by identifying a window to win and get maximum return on players who won't fit in the window rather than waiting for their contracts to expire and them losing value.

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