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Oilers In Need Of Shakeup? Plus 30 Thoughts.

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Old
12-02-2009, 09:24 PM
  #176
Arpeggio
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Also, Phil Kessel fits quite nicely into a rebuild. He's only 22.

But Burke assumed a big risk that Kessel will work out at least as well as the pick he gave up.

13 points in 14 games...looks like it's working out fine so far.
13 points in 14 games? So what? That team is going no where fast, and they have no top pick this year or next. That's not a risk, that's just sheer stupidity. He's a great player, but they could potentially have had two great players. They're not any closer to competing for a cup now than they were prior to the deal.

If the Oilers had given up two firsts and a second, you would be lambasting Tambellini for it.

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12-02-2009, 09:24 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Because the Oilers don't have a Kopitar, Frolov or Brown.

And that's where they need to start and they won't get them by constantly striving to scrape into 8th place with a veteran laded cap strapped team. That's TML hockey.
They have this year to get that player and they can hope Eberle and/or MPS can also develop into good players to go with what's already here.

That's basically it. You're not going to get a 3-4 year tank job here.

Tambellini has whatever pick he gets this year (could be Hall or Seguin or Kabanov) plus Hemsky, plus Gagner, plus Eberle, plus MPS, plus Penner, plus Cogliano, plus Brule, plus O'Sullivan, to work with up front and some tradable assets on the back end. And he has no leverage with UFAs. That's the hand he's been played.

Make it work. If he can't, he will probably be fired in 2 years or so.


Last edited by Soundwave: 12-02-2009 at 09:32 PM.
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12-02-2009, 09:30 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Arpeggio View Post
13 points in 14 games? So what? That team is going no where fast, and they have no top pick this year or next. That's not a risk, that's just sheer stupidity. He's a great player, but they could potentially have had two great players. They're not any closer to competing for a cup now than they were prior to the deal.

If the Oilers had given up two firsts and a second, you would be lambasting Tambellini for it.
I believe I said it was a huge risk.

I guess you missed that part.

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12-02-2009, 09:33 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
They have this year to get that player and they can hope Eberle and/or MPS can also develop into good players to go with what's already here.

That's basically it. You're not going to get a 3-4 year tank job here.

Tambellini has whatever pick he gets this year (could be Hall or Seguin) plus Hemsky, plus Gagner, plus Eberle, plus MPS, plus Penner, plus Cogliano, plus Brule to work with up front and some tradable assets on the back end.

Make it work.
It's certainly possible to get better but what if the players they draft this year doesn't turn into a franchise player. (happens all the time)

Do you think Eberle, MPS, Gagner, Hemsky, Penner, Brule and Cogs can compete with the elite?

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12-02-2009, 09:34 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
It's certainly possible to get better but what if the players they draft this year doesn't turn into a franchise player. (happens all the time)

Do you think Eberle, MPS, Gagner, Hemsky, Penner, Brule and Cogs can compete with the elite?
Then we're screwed pretty much. Like I said, we don't have the luxury of going back to the "bail me out" well more than probably this year.

Unless Eberle and MPS pan out like Kopitar and Brown.

We need some luck, what else can you say. That's really the bottom line, I mean dumping Moreau for some 3rd round pick or something or moving Souray for say a Simmonds helps along changing the roster, but that's ultimately not the main problem to begin with.

The hockey gods gave us Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Weight, and for a time Pronger. They need to help us out again.

I hope we get Calgary-born Hall and he is great, as some kind of cosmic retribution for the Flames having all the good Edmonton born players.

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12-02-2009, 09:34 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Yes teams do do that.

Tallon made some mistakes but the evidence of a rebuild is as clear as can be.

Smyth will be broken down before the Kings compete? They're competing right now.

16-10-2 and 5th in the conference looks pretty competitive to me.

The Islanders are the Islanders. Nuff said.

Phoenix has indeed kept Doan...he is the face of the franchise but they also shipped out of lot of underperforming vets and I'm sure they would move Jovo if someone would eat that contract.

Atlanta keeping Kozlov doesn't prove much. I've never advocated moving every veteran.

Horcoff will likely be here for the next 6 years so there you go.

With Stamkos and Hedman, and a makeover in the past offseason, TB is much improved and I'll wager they make the playoffs. You should bear in mind they moved Richards to clear cap space and, as much as it's been a gong show in Tampa, they are in much better shape than the Oilers going forward.
We'll have to see how LA does I guess. Don't see them being all that competitive the next year or 2.

And the main reason I made that post is when you said Lubo won't be able to help us when we are competitive again. Really you look at most those teams, and it took like 2-3 years max to rebuild. I think Visnovsky will still be helping us a lot by then.

I am all for trying to move some contracts and would look to aggresively move Souray/Horcoff (ya right)/Gilbert. I just think Visnovsky is too good to try and move. Chances are we will be looking for that type of dman in 3 years if we move him. And besides, I don't think his value is going to be that much higher now than it would at the deadline of his ufa year. If we are still going nowhere by that time, then it makes sense to move him for a 1st + prospect.

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12-02-2009, 09:40 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Hemskyfanboy83 View Post
We'll have to see how LA does I guess. Don't see them being all that competitive the next year or 2.

And the main reason I made that post is when you said Lubo won't be able to help us when we are competitive again. Really you look at most those teams, and it took like 2-3 years max to rebuild. I think Visnovsky will still be helping us a lot by then.

I am all for trying to move some contracts and would look to aggresively move Souray/Horcoff (ya right)/Gilbert. I just think Visnovsky is too good to try and move. Chances are we will be looking for that type of dman in 3 years if we move him. And besides, I don't think his value is going to be that much higher now than it would at the deadline of his ufa year. If we are still going nowhere by that time, then it makes sense to move him for a 1st + prospect.
Fair enough but, if it were me, I would kick off a rebuild by trading my most valuable older asset for maximum value before it begins to decline. He'll be 37 when you propose trading him.

LA moved him for the very same reason and got two players who fit perfectly into their rebuild.

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12-02-2009, 09:40 PM
  #183
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I'd move Souray and keep Vish.

Vish seems to really be able to help out the kids too ... look at Smid's development playing this year with Visnovsky. He could help bring along the pups like Chorney and Peckham and Petry as well.

Quinn should try pairing Gilbert with Visnovsky actually, maybe that could jump start his game.

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12-02-2009, 09:41 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
It's certainly possible to get better but what if the players they draft this year doesn't turn into a franchise player. (happens all the time)

Do you think Eberle, MPS, Gagner, Hemsky, Penner, Brule and Cogs can compete with the elite?
There was no guarantee that Toews or Kane would be franchise players, there was no guarantee that Kopitar would be a franchise player so you can't know for sure that guys like MPS or Eberle won't be elite players and if the Oilers draft a guy like Hall or Seguin, there's no guarantee that they will be franchise players but it sure as hell will help and add to a very good young core. My point is that there is no point to complete gut a roster and depend on young players to carry a franchise, you need that mix of good vets and great young players.

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12-02-2009, 09:45 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Fair enough but, if it were me, I would kick off a rebuild by trading my most valuable older asset for maximum value before it begins to decline. He'll be 37 when you propose trading him.

LA moved him for the very same reason and got two players who fit perfectly into their rebuild.
I think maximum value applies to Souray a lot more. Visnovsky has shown no signs of slowing down and I just don't think we would get maximum value for him.

I could move him but only for a big young center.

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12-02-2009, 09:57 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
There was no guarantee that Toews or Kane would be franchise players, there was no guarantee that Kopitar would be a franchise player so you can't know for sure that guys like MPS or Eberle won't be elite players and if the Oilers draft a guy like Hall or Seguin, there's no guarantee that they will be franchise players but it sure as hell will help and add to a very good young core. My point is that there is no point to complete gut a roster and depend on young players to carry a franchise, you need that mix of good vets and great young players.
You're right, of course, but they did turn into franchise players as projected.

Are any of Gagner, Cogliano, MPS projected to be that?

My point is that it would be prudent at this point to maximize your chances of getting a franchise player or two.

Gambling everything on the chance to get Hall or Seguin (and that's far from a sure thing) and then waiting for them to develop is every bit as risky as Burke's Kessel gambit.

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12-02-2009, 10:02 PM
  #187
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I actually have to wonder if Horcoff is even going to make it through his contract.

He had season ending shoulder injury and now has reinjured the same shoulder and is clearly its bad enough that he can't even take face offs with it.

If he gets hit there again this year hard his season is probably done too and that'll be two shoulder surgeries in 3 seasons.

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12-02-2009, 10:04 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
You're right, of course, but they did turn into franchise players as projected.

Are any of Gagner, Cogliano, MPS projected to be that?

My point is that it would be prudent at this point to maximize your chances of getting a franchise player or two.

Gambling everything on the chance to get Hall or Seguin (and that's far from a sure thing) and then waiting for them to develop is every bit as risky as Burke's Kessel gambit.

The problem is that i feel the only way that we can get a franchise player is through the draft and there's no better time than the present, obviously getting a high draft pick is a crapshoot and would take a lot of luck but we're obviously not going to get a franchise player through the trade route and especially through free agency. I agree that we should maximize the value of our assets by trading away Souray but the problem is that there's no one else besides Visnovsky and Penner who has maximum value right now so it seems that there's not a lot of options right now..... Also, as i said previously, we need to trade away the redundancy on this roster, guys like Cogliano, O'Sullivan, Gilbert and Grebeshkov immediately come to mind but their value is lower now than it was in the past so it wouldn't be wise for management to trade these guys at low value..... I think drafting Hall or Seguin (fingers crossed) is the best chance for us to get a "potential" franchise player, hopefully we can shut down Horcoff and Khabibulin for a while since they're obviously not healthy and give us a better chance at getting that "elusive" top draft pick

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12-02-2009, 10:09 PM
  #189
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I would try and package O'Sullivan or Nilsson with Souray.

I think Cogs probably deserves one more year though unless you're getting a great offer. You're going to be able to sign him for cheap at this rate anyway.

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12-02-2009, 10:09 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
The problem is that i feel the only way that we can get a franchise player is through the draft and there's no better time than the present, obviously getting a high draft pick is a crapshoot and would take a lot of luck but we're obviously not going to get a franchise player through the trade route and especially through free agency. I agree that we should maximize the value of our assets by trading away Souray but the problem is that there's no one else besides Visnovsky and Penner who has maximum value right now so it seems that there's not a lot of options right now..... Also, as i said previously, we need to trade away the redundancy on this roster, guys like Cogliano, O'Sullivan, Gilbert and Grebeshkov immediately come to mind but their value is lower now than it was in the past so it wouldn't be wise for management to trade these guys at low value..... I think drafting Hall or Seguin (fingers crossed) is the best chance for us to get a "potential" franchise player, hopefully we can shut down Horcoff and Khabibulin for a while since they're obviously not healthy and give us a better chance at getting that "elusive" top draft pick
Well, it's a start but several posters here seem to think that getting one great draft choice is all that's needed and this is a contending team.

There is much, much more that needs to be done before even a playoff spot is likely.

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12-02-2009, 10:11 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Well, it's a start but several posters here seem to think that getting one great draft choice is all that's needed and this is a contending team.

There is much, much more that needs to be done before even a playoff spot is likely.
Depends on who the player is really. If the player is as good or comparable to Tavares or Stamkos and your GM still can't figure out how to get in the playoffs with that plus Hemsky, Penner, Visnovsky, Khabibulin, Brule, Eberle, Gagner, etc., then really you're ****ing up the small details. It's no longer a big detail issue.

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12-02-2009, 10:19 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Depends on who the player is really. If the player is as good or comparable to Tavares or Stamkos and your GM still can't figure out how to get in the playoffs with that plus Hemsky, Penner, Visnovsky, Khabibulin, Brule, Eberle, Gagner, etc., then really you're ****ing up the small details. It's no longer a big detail issue.
You're still counting on things that aren't certain or even likely.

Khabibulin is an injury trainwreck...has been for years and the Oilers don't have a reliable backup.

Hemsky is Hemsky, a complimentary player.

Looks like Penner has made a breakthrough but I would wait a season before passing judgement.

Brule is still well below average for a third or fourth line centre.

Eberle looks promising but so did Shremp.

Gagner is alright for his age but he's hardly a world beater in the mold of Kane, Toews, Stamkos, Kopitar or that group.

And then the third and fourth lines are barely above AHL calibre.

Not a recipe for sustained success.

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12-02-2009, 10:41 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Depends on who the player is really. If the player is as good or comparable to Tavares or Stamkos and your GM still can't figure out how to get in the playoffs with that plus Hemsky, Penner, Visnovsky, Khabibulin, Brule, Eberle, Gagner, etc., then really you're ****ing up the small details. It's no longer a big detail issue.
But what's the point of just making the playoffs if the guys you're up against give around the league give you a minimal chance to get past the first round every year?

I could do up a template that would illustrate all the series of moves needed to turn a "1 year rebuild" (this year) into a success, but it would involve trades and acquisitions that are extremely unlikely to succeed.

If this team just picks up Hall or Seguin and then goes immediately back into win-now mode making no other complimentary rebuild moves chances are it's the ultimate exercise in futility as DSF is pointing out.

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12-02-2009, 10:43 PM
  #194
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Pretty hard to argue it was a good deal. It was a buy now pay later deal, with lots of interest.
It's downright self-inflicted usury. Perhaps Burke was not acquainted with the province's stringent laws. He bought himself a pony.

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12-03-2009, 05:01 AM
  #195
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I think you're sadly mistaken there.

Chicago has Towes, Kane, Hossa and Sharp. Everyone of them is better than anyone on the Oilers roster.

Their supporting cast, Versteeg, Bolland, Byfuglien, Madden, Ladd, Kopecky and Brower are all first rate.

And they have Barker, Keith and Seabrook as young studs anchoring their defense.

Stack the current Oilers roster up against that group and start to weep.

I tend to agree that the way Pitts tanked, Chicago tanked, etc...it is not the proper way to run a team, because of the volatility it creates in both your fanship and the stability of your ownership.

This argument that Chicago has this person and that person...look at what you are saying. trades/signings for players that have performed well on a nicely constructed team...of course they are going to LOOK better than players on the Oilers, but bring Sharp, Versteeg, even Kane, onto the Oilers and see how well they do. And if you ask me, with all this talk of tanking, the way the Hawks built was not the way that so many are advocating. They paid exhorbitant amounts of money to players like Khabby, Aucoin, Havlat, etc. years before they were even competing for a playoff spot, let alone for the division, or contending for the cup. I see this no different, or even worse than what the Oilers have. Only luck in the draft (3 or 4 top 3 picks on the roster) because of absolute terrible management has created their current success.

There are a few players you mentioned that would be constantly criticized for the holes in their game if they were on the Oilers, because these holes would be widely exposed, as opposed to being hidden by the team game Chicago excels at. Barker, Kopecky, Versteeg, Ladd and Kane are the most obvious ones that come to mind.

Obviously, the Oilers have a long way to go, but so many comparisons to teams that are rewarded for sucking (as someone so perfectly mentioned) is not a proper comparison. Sucking is not an option, and since the Oilers' rebuild has already, to a large extent, been put into play (coincidentally, they were the youngest team in the league 2 seasons ago and only 7th this year), patience is what is needed in Oilerland. The fact that everyone is so fascinated with the idea of "rebuilding the rebuild" shows that it is not one of the fanship's strong suits, which really pointedly shows you that a "true" or "full" rebuild is not possible.

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