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Old
12-04-2009, 02:28 PM
  #26
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Cogliano 2.53 gfon60
Gagner 2.61 gfon60

Cogliano 1.81 gaon60
Gagner 3.13 gaon60

Cogliano +0.72 differential
Gagner -0.52 differential

Sure Gagner has chipped in with more points but he's also bleeding goals.


Even strength points:

Gagner 9
Cogliano 6

Considering Gagner has played with the likes of Hemsky, Penner and Horcoff all year long and Cogliano has played with Moreau and Stortini is anyone actually impressed with Gagner's 3 extra 5X5 points? I'm not.

Gagner is nothing special and considering he would bring 3x the return that Cogliano would we'd be wise to trade Gagner instead.

Unfortunately Steve Tambellini is an idiot and he will sell low and then hand Sam "Pierre-Marc Bouchard" Gagner a fat contract extension.

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12-04-2009, 02:49 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Skating View Post
Cogliano 2.53 gfon60
Gagner 2.61 gfon60

Cogliano 1.81 gaon60
Gagner 3.13 gaon60

Cogliano +0.72 differential
Gagner -0.52 differential

Sure Gagner has chipped in with more points but he's also bleeding goals.


Even strength points:

Gagner 9
Cogliano 6

Considering Gagner has played with the likes of Hemsky, Penner and Horcoff all year long and Cogliano has played with Moreau and Stortini is anyone actually impressed with Gagner's 3 extra 5X5 points? I'm not.

Gagner is nothing special and considering he would bring 3x the return that Cogliano would we'd be wise to trade Gagner instead.

Unfortunately Steve Tambellini is an idiot and he will sell low and then hand Sam "Pierre-Marc Bouchard" Gagner a fat contract extension.
Gagner is also 2 years younger. People can twist statistics anywhich way to try and justify a players worth. Cogliano is not > or = Gagner - and never will be.

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12-04-2009, 02:53 PM
  #28
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moreau and stortini are also checkers who should not be scored on

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12-04-2009, 02:55 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Walsher View Post
Cogliano is getting 14 minutes a night with no PP time burried on the 3rd line under the Quinn regime and is on pace for less than 9 goals... Which is the exception and which is the rule?

By MacT regime I assume you mean defensive oriented (because that is everyones perception of that regime). Using that logic he should be excelling under the Quinn regime (perception being Quinn lets his skill players do their thing). But he is not.

Any player, who when they are drafted was being described as within the Todd Marchant mould, will not hit 30 goals in the NHL. Cogliano has no hands, not much a shot, no size, but has all-world wheels. Keep in mind how many 30 goal guys there are in the league - are there players with the potential to hit 30 and don't? There are tons. There are tons of players way better than Cogliano that haven't and won'y hit 30. Again, I just can't see it. I hope I am wrong - but I have seen the story over and over in Edmonton. Fans think they have something more than what they have. Exhibit #1 - 2 years ago Edmonton media and fans comparing Patrick Kane and Johnathan Toews to Gagner and Cogliano...
The rule would be Cogliano's performace over 164 games rather than the last 25.

When I say MacTavish regime, I refer to the mind games he plays with young players that strips them of any confidence they have. RE: Mark Andre Bergeron, Joffrey Lupul, Dustin Penner. Somehow Cogs survived those mind games and put up good numbers for a first and second year player.

Typically, NHL players have their break out in year 3 or year 4 and that is pretty much the measure of their peak value. Cogs is in year three and and is showing a serious lack of confidence - something I would have expected with MacT at the helm. Perhaps too much 4th line duty has the kid questioning his abilities? Last night in Detroit he had chances that he would have buried last year.

I expect next season to be the breakout for Cogs. If next year he gets no more than 40 points, so be it. But, based on his first two seasons, this kid should be able to crack the 30 goal barrier - I just hope he does it in Edmonton.

Right now, Cogliano is not very good. That being said, Gagner isn't that good right now either. Gagner is the benficiary of more ice time and more pp time.

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12-04-2009, 03:00 PM
  #30
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What mind games did he play with Bergeron? Guy played a lot of minutes under MacTavish before they traded him.

Lupul, the guy was an absolute dog. And still is. And was even after he was traded.

Theres a bit of a myth that MacTavish isn't good with young players. MacTavish has brought up young players like Smyth, Hemsky, Gilbert, Grebeshkov, Marchant, Cleary, Comrie and is a big reason why those guys are the players they are today.

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12-04-2009, 03:07 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Walsher View Post
The difference is Detroit is good enough they can develop their prospects in the AHL because there is no rush to get them in the league. When was the last time Detroit jumped a young player into their every day roster without seasoning in the AHL?

Edmonton expects excellence out of youngsters immediately and becomes flustered when it doesn't happen immediately.

It also helps when you have Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Rafalski etc. etc. etc to carry the load while youngsters learn the game.
The fans get flustered. I have not sensed the Edmonton Oilers getting frustrated with Gagner as a prime example. They realize he is 20.

On this board I have read certain fan calling him a bust or unhappy with his development.

I have sensed no panic from within the Oilers organization.

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12-04-2009, 03:11 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
What mind games did he play with Bergeron? Guy played a lot of minutes under MacTavish before they traded him.

Lupul, the guy was an absolute dog. And still is. And was even after he was traded.

Theres a bit of a myth that MacTavish isn't good with young players. MacTavish has brought up young players like Smyth, Hemsky, Gilbert, Grebeshkov, Marchant, Cleary, Comrie and is a big reason why those guys are the players they are today.
Its no myth. You are mistaken.

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12-04-2009, 03:12 PM
  #33
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Cogliano has such a powerful skating stride, he shoud be using that speed to freeze goaltenders deep in their net...ala Sakic in his hay day...instead of drop passing or shutting down the attack.

He likes to attack on the off wing, which CAN be a lethal plan if he carries through all the way.

I think what he needs to do his worry less about elevating his shot and continue to move his feet while shooting through his stride, instead. This will lead to low angle shots, which he can follow onto the net for rebounds or scrambles...plus...the fact he's coming in with a head of steam will back the goalies deep into the net so that, sometimes, you can just fire the puck along the ice and it goes under a pad,too.

Sakic used to do that all the time and Cogliano's stride/skating style really fits that trick to a tee. Doesn't even have to be a hard shot...he's got a low profile...he can get lost in traffic if he learns to alter his release point just a bit.


I mean...Im not telling anyone how to do their jobs out there but...to me...this is a trick that any explosion skater can use to become (at least) a 'quanity shooter' if not a sniper. And best of all...he can do it from either wing...which might free him up to play with more options.

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Old
12-04-2009, 03:14 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Its no myth. You are mistaken.
So what young players did he ruin?

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12-04-2009, 03:15 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
What mind games did he play with Bergeron? Guy played a lot of minutes under MacTavish before they traded him.

Lupul, the guy was an absolute dog. And still is. And was even after he was traded.

Theres a bit of a myth that MacTavish isn't good with young players. MacTavish has brought up young players like Smyth, Hemsky, Gilbert, Grebeshkov, Marchant, Cleary, Comrie and is a big reason why those guys are the players they are today.
Not all players react the same way to MacT's tactics. Have you ever had a boss that micro managed you? How do you peform when they are waiting around every corner to catch you in a mistake?

Players like Penner, Bergeron, Lupul and probably several others that I am forgetting all folded under that scrutiny from MacT. Especially Bergeron - I remember people on this board ranting and raving about his defensive deficiencies when it was pretty obvious the kid's confidence was shot and he was just trying to not piss off MacT. Being on the ice with your foremost thought being trying not to screw up so the coach doesn't kick your ass is a sure way to screw up.

Other players could handle that kind of coaching, many cannot. MacT didn't know how to handle the ones that could not.

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12-04-2009, 03:21 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryn Duliba View Post
Not all players react the same way to MacT's tactics. Have you ever had a boss that micro managed you? How do you peform when they are waiting around every corner to catch you in a mistake?

Players like Penner, Bergeron, Lupul and probably several others that I am forgetting all folded under that scrutiny from MacT. Especially Bergeron - I remember people on this board ranting and raving about his defensive deficiencies when it was pretty obvious the kid's confidence was shot and he was just trying to not piss off MacT. Being on the ice with your foremost thought being trying not to screw up so the coach doesn't kick your ass is a sure way to screw up.

Other players could handle that kind of coaching, many cannot. MacT didn't know how to handle the ones that could not.
I am not buying on Bergeron. Bergeron was always going to a risk-reward dman. He hasn't changed since he left Edmonton! He is what he is.

Penner, I would agree that Mactavish gets some responsibility but not all. In order to blame Mactavish completely, I conversely would have to give Quinn ALL the credit for his turnaround. Obviously that would be flawed.

Lupul, what is he doing since he has been back in Anaheim? He is struggling. Lupul has some personal problems that effect his play (I will not say anymore)

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12-04-2009, 03:32 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
I am not buying on Bergeron. Bergeron was always going to a risk-reward dman. He hasn't changed since he left Edmonton! He is what he is.

Penner, I would agree that Mactavish gets some responsibility but not all. In order to blame Mactavish completely, I conversely would have to give Quinn ALL the credit for his turnaround. Obviously that would be flawed.

Lupul, what is he doing since he has been back in Anaheim? He is struggling. Lupul has some personal problems that effect his play (I will not say anymore)
Bergeron was a lot better defensively before MacT started riding him like a camel. It was painfully obvious that he broke Bergeron to the point where Bergeron simply couldn't make a decent play behind his own blue line to save his life. MacT being on Bergeron's back was a major factor in his demise in Edmonton.

Lupul played well in Philadelphia, I don't know what kind of personal problems he has but that obviously skews everything.

MacT micro-managed these guys and made them worse players because of it.

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12-04-2009, 03:42 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryn Duliba View Post
Bergeron was a lot better defensively before MacT started riding him like a camel. It was painfully obvious that he broke Bergeron to the point where Bergeron simply couldn't make a decent play behind his own blue line to save his life. MacT being on Bergeron's back was a major factor in his demise in Edmonton.

Lupul played well in Philadelphia, I don't know what kind of personal problems he has but that obviously skews everything.

MacT micro-managed these guys and made them worse players because of it.
He was never good defensively! He had a great year when he played with Chris Pronger.

He was always a high risk-high reward dman. If anything he should have wrote MacT a thank you letter for upping his value by playing with Chris Pronger.

Mactavish had nothing to do with the type of dman Bergeron was! He was always that type of dman. Without playing with a world class dman his weaknesses got exposed!

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12-04-2009, 03:56 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryn Duliba View Post
Bergeron was a lot better defensively before MacT started riding him like a camel. It was painfully obvious that he broke Bergeron to the point where Bergeron simply couldn't make a decent play behind his own blue line to save his life. MacT being on Bergeron's back was a major factor in his demise in Edmonton.

Lupul played well in Philadelphia, I don't know what kind of personal problems he has but that obviously skews everything.

MacT micro-managed these guys and made them worse players because of it.
Lupul had the same problems in Philadelphia as he did in edmonton. One night he would look good the next night he was the worst player on the ice. The guy didn't want to be in Edmonton. One of the worst players to ever put on the uniform. In fact a lot of the flyer fans I talked to absolutely hated the guy when he was there too.

Maybe you have something with Bergeron, maybe he could have grown more under a different coach but he got his opportunity in Ted Nolans system and did well for a while, but his weaknesses again got exposed and he was back in the doghouse after a short while.

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12-04-2009, 04:27 PM
  #40
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i think it is fair to say he will be a solid 18-25 goal scorer in his career and probably be the 6th or 5th player in a teams top 6 wherever he goes. i hope he gives tambo reason to not trade him because guys like comrie and nilsson and moreau are a lot worse and are only taking up spots cogliano deserves. but you cant say having that goal production isnt good to have. i hope we keep him and brule. 3 or 4 small guy in ur top 6 isnt the end of the world. 5 small guys is.

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12-04-2009, 07:32 PM
  #41
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nm,,,

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12-04-2009, 07:45 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Walsher View Post
IMO Cogliano is just overrated. He is never going to be a point producer of any significance. He will be a very servicable player that has great speed. Unfortunately his hands don't match his speed.

I still find it laughable how people thought Cogliano had more offensive upside, or just upside period, than Gagner in the last couple years. And Gagner is more than 2 years younger than Cogs...
Todd Marchant anyone?

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12-04-2009, 07:49 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Davalicious View Post
Todd Marchant anyone?
Cogliano is a much better offensive player than Todd Marchant ever was.

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12-04-2009, 07:58 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Cogliano is a much better offensive player than Todd Marchant ever was.

Junior yes, NHL not yet (maybe never?) as far as I know 60 points>45 points. I am not saying he is the next Marchant I was just stating what I thought a good example for a player would be for the person I quoted.

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12-04-2009, 08:01 PM
  #45
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Marchant had a pretty damn good career for what he brings. Cogs definitely has the potential ability to be much much better than him, but until he actually reaches that level, the shoe fits.

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12-04-2009, 08:22 PM
  #46
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Junior yes, NHL not yet (maybe never?) as far as I know 60 points>45 points. I am not saying he is the next Marchant I was just stating what I thought a good example for a player would be for the person I quoted.
You didnt just pick out one year out of fifteen did you?

Thats hilarious. His next best season was forty points. And he had fourteen tries. I dont think you used to watch Marchant much did you?

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12-04-2009, 08:27 PM
  #47
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You didnt just pick out one year out of fifteen did you?

Thats hilarious. His next best season was forty points. And he had fourteen tries. I dont think you used to watch Marchant much did you?
Yeah I did pick 1 season. Unless he passes 60 points he will never be as good as Marchant was. DUH.

EDIT: Yeah I did watch Marchant a lot by the way. I like how you can just think you know me.

Also Marchant was drafted in the 7th round. Cogliano? The first. So I would expect Cogs to be blowing Marchants points out of the water by this point in time. So what if he is ONLY 22? USUALY (not always) you know what you are getting from a player by 25 so he has 3 years to prove me wrong.


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12-04-2009, 08:45 PM
  #48
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Yeah I did pick 1 season. Unless he passes 60 points he was never as good as Marchant was. DUH.

EDIT: Yeah I did watch Marchant a lot by the way. I like how you can just think you know me.
I find that hard to believe considering your comments here. Maybe you should do a more comparative analysis? Cogliano scored 45pts as a 20yr old. Marchant didnt play his first full season in the nhl until he was 22. He had 38 pts.

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12-04-2009, 08:50 PM
  #49
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I find that hard to believe considering your comments here. Maybe you should do a more comparative analysis? Cogliano scored 45pts as a 20yr old. Marchant didnt play his first full season in the nhl until he was 22. He had 38 pts.
As a 22 year old how many points is Cogs on pace for this year? 23.

Todd Marchant as an old man aged 36 has 7 points at this point. Cogs has 8. And Todd has 4 goals to Andrew's 3.

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12-04-2009, 08:58 PM
  #50
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Bergeron was a lot better defensively before MacT started riding him like a camel. It was painfully obvious that he broke Bergeron to the point where Bergeron simply couldn't make a decent play behind his own blue line to save his life. MacT being on Bergeron's back was a major factor in his demise in Edmonton.

Lupul played well in Philadelphia, I don't know what kind of personal problems he has but that obviously skews everything.

MacT micro-managed these guys and made them worse players because of it.

remember Bergeron's best hockey was when he partnered with Pronger. CFP makes "D" partner's careers. Plus MAB Nine Iron slapshot has hard but very predictable. That time and space disappears in big games.

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