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So, who's going to be the new whipping boy?

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Old
12-05-2009, 09:18 AM
  #26
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Richards has only recently started to come under any criticism at all.

Carter and Coburn will be the prime candidates .... with Coburn likely moving to be the #1 guy.

Defenseman have generally been the teams whipping boys in the past: Jones, Therien, Huffman, Crossman, Wilson etc.

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12-05-2009, 09:20 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
And set it up such that he can't do anything about it when we're not healthy.

He's an atrocious GM when it comes to managing the salary cap, and that's up there in the necessary skills.
I wouldn't fault him too harshly on that.... I think he was counting on a depth players, which the FLyers do have a lot of; he brought in a few additional depth players over the summer, too, and I think he was counting on Nodl, Kalenski, Maroon (whatever happend to him?) Kevin Marshall, Marc-Andre Bourdon, Bartulis, to be capable of filling in when need.

Flyers have a lot of injuries, right now; I don't think that was expected, and they have still been in most of the games; they have just been too weak on controling the puck, and it's been the skilled players who have been the most weak.....


Last edited by smacklby: 12-05-2009 at 09:28 AM. Reason: Gramar Correctification
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Old
12-05-2009, 09:23 AM
  #28
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I'm going to be harder on Richards from here on out. As captain, he needs to step up; anything less and I'll be disappointed.

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12-05-2009, 09:29 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by smacklby View Post
I wouldn't fault him too harshly on that.... I think he was counting on a depth players, which the FLyers do have a lot of; he brought in a few additional depth players over the summer, too, and I think he was counting on Nodl, Kalenski, Maroon (whatever happend to him?) Kevin Marshall, Marc-Andre Bourdon, Bartulis, to be capable of filling in when need.
Don't fault him too harshly? It's the second consecutive season he's saddled this team with ZERO salary cap space. Last year it led to jettisoning Upshall, Vaananen, and Metropolit...nixing a good chunk of our depth, and we had Jones out there in the playoffs playing on one bum hip. This year he calls Jones up, an absolutely idiotic salary cap move, and we have zero wiggle room for the rest of the year.

Faulting him for the salary cap is the easiest and most obvious way to critique Holmgren. He's absolutely sucked at it.

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Flyers have a lot of injuries, right now; I don't think that was expected, and they have still been in most of the games, they have just been too weak on controling the puck, and it's been the skilled players who have been the most weak.....
Better have been...there are ALWAYS injuries. THAT IS WHY you want to have salary cap space to carry throughout the season.

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12-05-2009, 09:29 AM
  #30
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It's just about guaranteed that one of Briere Richards or Carter will NOT flourish under Laviolette. Which ever one doesn't will be the new whipping boy in my eyes. I just about added Hartnell, but he's too unique on this team. Of course if Carle returns to last years form it could be him as well.

I base my disappointment on underachievement of pay cheque. If a guy like Pyro sucks who care, he gets league minimum and can sent down at any time. Guys like Powe or Asham or Bartulis won't be shouldering the blame if we hit a 10 game skid. The captains, and $5 mil plus guys take the hits. The best need to be the best to win.
Lets be honest here though....As much as we have some issues with Carter and Richards, and I am not denying that, they have been far from sucking!! (not that you said they were, just making a point)

Like I was saying before Stevens was canned.....If it is 1 or 2 players not carrying their weight and doing their job, fine....they will become the whipping boy(s)...When the whole team is crap, its a bigger issue than just "PLAYERS"

Lets see what happens now. Hopefully, Carter and Richards realize the coach that spoiled them is gone and hold themselves accountable, and lets hope Laviolette does the same instead of just the 3rd and 4th liners....

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The choice among the players is obvious: Carter, Richards, and Coburn.

However, as stated during the press conference, by making this move Holmgren has extended his neck. The reason GMs are hesitant to fire coaches is because once you do that, you're job comes under scrutiny in the wake...and he said as much. On top of that, he noted that he and Stevens are "close friends" -- something figured out as an issue around here a long time ago. So, I think scrutiny should naturally fall on Holmgren (in part, because I've been disenchanted with him for some time).

Laviolette deserves a pass through at least this time next year. He can say what he wants, but the lack of training camp will be an issue for him. On the upside, he'll get the Olympic break with the majority of the team to have practice. We'll see how this plays out. I've read some not so great reports out of Carolina, but the style of play that he had them doing down there should complement our team very well. This team is good at the uptempo game, they just need a coach that is demanding that they pay attention to the details on the backside to enable them to push the game that hard.
Frankly, I remember watching that team but I dont remember much about the style they played....The one thing I do remember, is they werent the most talented "on paper" with their defense. He sure as heck didnt have guys like Timonen, Pronger and Carle.

Maybe we make a deadline deal for Brind'amour now

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Originally Posted by smacklby View Post
I wouldn't fault him too harshly on that.... I think he was counting on a depth players, which the FLyers do have a lot of; he brought in a few additional depth players over the summer, too, and I think he was counting on Nodl, Kalenski, Maroon (whatever happend to him?) Kevin Marshall, Marc-Andre Bourdon, Bartulis, to be capable of filling in when need.

Flyers have a lot of injuries, right now; I don't think that was expected, and they have still been in most of the games, they have just been too weak on controling the puck, and it's been the skilled players who have been the most weak.....
Whether he was counting on them or not, he screwed this cap.....especially with recalling Jones....what a waste of $1.3 million that could have been used at the trade deadline.

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Old
12-05-2009, 09:36 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Don't fault him too harshly? It's the second consecutive season he's saddled this team with ZERO salary cap space. Last year it led to jettisoning Upshall, Vaananen, and Metropolit...nixing a good chunk of our depth, and we had Jones out there in the playoffs playing on one bum hip. This year he calls Jones up, an absolutely idiotic salary cap move, and we have zero wiggle room for the rest of the year.

Faulting him for the salary cap is the easiest and most obvious way to critique Holmgren. He's absolutely sucked at it.

Better have been...there are ALWAYS injuries. THAT IS WHY you want to have salary cap space to carry throughout the season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
....
Whether he was counting on them or not, he screwed this cap.....especially with recalling Jones....what a waste of $1.3 million that could have been used at the trade deadline.
good points, I forgot about that blunder, and the ones last year, resulting in the loss of Upshall, Metro and Vannanen, as Jester pointed out....

Can he do better: absolutely.

BUT, I would rather count on the organizational depth to get the team through a tough injury spell, and fully utilize the cap to sign the best players.....

During last stretch of games, I'm more disappointed in the coaching and the performance of the skilled players (Carter, Richards, Briere, Giroux, Timonen) than the performance of the depth players -- who are just that, depth players. We've been in the games, put puck control has been horrid, and its been the skilled players who have been the worst!

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12-05-2009, 09:36 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
I'm going to be harder on Richards from here on out. As captain, he needs to step up; anything less and I'll be disappointed.
True, he's in fact the weakest captain I've ever seen. But he did try against the Canucks when he dropped the gloves, and held a players meeting after the game. He better continue this way.

Wolfy is definitely your whipping boy, you don't need a new one.

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12-05-2009, 09:42 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by smacklby View Post
BUT, I would rather count on the organizational depth to get the team through a tough injury spell, and fully utilize the cap to sign the best players.....
And that's fine, but lack of salary cap space can screw up your ability to do that. The reason Upshall needed to be moved was because we were incapable of calling players up from the AHL to fill in. Then we ended the year with ATOs playing in important games due to our lack of cap space.

You're right, you don't want to be trading and acquiring players when guys get hurt. But you do need cap space to have roster flexibility, and you would like to at least have some options for deadline acquisitions to help your team down the stretch.

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12-05-2009, 09:47 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
True, he's in fact the weakest captain I've ever seen. But he did try against the Canucks when he dropped the gloves, and held a players meeting after the game. He better continue this way.

Wolfy is definitely your whipping boy, you don't need a new one.
I don't think he's a weak captain. His leadership potential is there and he has a reputation to be a hard worker and a lead-by-example player. If he wants to stick to his guns with that style of leading, then he needs to make a better example. Otherwise, he has to figure out some other way to inspire the troops.

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12-05-2009, 09:54 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
I don't think he's a weak captain. His leadership potential is there and he has a reputation to be a hard worker and a lead-by-example player. If he wants to stick to his guns with that style of leading, then he needs to make a better example. Otherwise, he has to figure out some other way to inspire the troops.
Maybe he should start with stopping the team from hitting the bars, including himself.

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12-05-2009, 10:07 AM
  #36
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Maybe he should start with stopping the team from hitting the bars, including himself.
whats he supposed to do with the rest of the team and tha party scene? lock them in a room when there isnt any games?
he has no control over the other 19 guys on that team and what they do when they arent playing games and practicing.
He can only worry about himself in that regard.

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12-05-2009, 10:08 AM
  #37
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True, he's in fact the weakest captain I've ever seen. But he did try against the Canucks when he dropped the gloves, and held a players meeting after the game. He better continue this way.

Wolfy is definitely your whipping boy, you don't need a new one.

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12-05-2009, 10:09 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfy View Post
Maybe he should start with stopping the team from hitting the bars, including himself.
Bars are a tough thing to judge. Used properly, they can be a great way to build camaraderie but they tend to split a team into cliques (as it has with this team). That said, sometimes people just need to get away from work, and I'd be hesitant to just take away a source of release from players that are already being asked to do a lot. Just look at English football and rugby; those guys get hammered after every game and it doesn't seem to affect their play.

The mantra "Everything in moderation" seems like an appropriate one here. Hopefully Lavvy lets the boys have their fun but stresses that they put hockey first and partying second.

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12-05-2009, 10:14 AM
  #39
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Holmgren,. Richards, Carter, in that order.

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12-05-2009, 10:16 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
Bars are a tough thing to judge. Used properly, they can be a great way to build camaraderie but they tend to split a team into cliques (as it has with this team). That said, sometimes people just need to get away from work, and I'd be hesitant to just take away a source of release from players that are already being asked to do a lot. Just look at English football and rugby; those guys get hammered after every game and it doesn't seem to affect their play.

The mantra "Everything in moderation" seems like an appropriate one here. Hopefully Lavvy lets the boys have their fun but stresses that they put hockey first and partying second.
I don't know; I'm not an athlete; although, I do play tennis on weekends, but more to have fun and stay fit; and, I do use the gym three or more days a week. I'm a professional - Software Engineer. I do not really drink much at all. I don't really have time. I cannot perform as well physically or mentally when consuming alcohol. I do miss it on occassion --- going to a club to have fun. But, alcohol isn't all some people make it out to be; at least not for me. I'd think alcohol in moderation is fine, for an athlete; but their athletic profession should come first.

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12-05-2009, 10:31 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smacklby View Post
I don't know; I'm not an athlete; although, I do play tennis on weekends, but more to have fun and stay fit; and, I do use the gym three or more days a week. I'm a professional - Software Engineer. I do not really drink much at all. I don't really have time. I cannot perform as well physically or mentally when consuming alcohol. I do miss it on occassion --- going to a club to have fun. But, alcohol isn't all some people make it out to be; at least not for me. I'd think alcohol in moderation is fine, for an athlete; but their athletic profession should come first.
Well, obviously I'm not promoting drinking before games. Being drunk during games should stay with Coatsey.

That said, these are young stars in a fun city. Who is going to tell them they can't go out? I can't think of a more disastrous morale hit. Hockey comes first, but sometimes you need to release a little. Moderation

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12-05-2009, 10:42 AM
  #42
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I'd say Carter/Richie.

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12-05-2009, 11:02 AM
  #43
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When Terry Murray was brough in to do the X's and O's stuff when they went to the ECF, the team was poised and played positionally well, and if all the D wasn't injured we might have beaten the Pens. Then Murray left for LA and then back to the same only pond hockey system of Stevens. hopefullt with Laviolette he will have more structure and responsibility for the players, then they had with Stevens' men's league system. I also hope he will have some defined roles for the players so they can accel at their role and blossom as a player, I envision Carter becoming Stallesque in his play at both ends of the ice and becoming the player that his talent begs him to be. Size+ speed+ shot+ drive = dominance

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12-05-2009, 11:08 AM
  #44
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Well, obviously I'm not promoting drinking before games. Being drunk during games should stay with Coatsey.

That said, these are young stars in a fun city. Who is going to tell them they can't go out? I can't think of a more disastrous morale hit. Hockey comes first, but sometimes you need to release a little. Moderation
True.... But, I forgot to mention: Richards' performance has been lacking, imo -- as has several other skilled players on the team. Maybe they should put the alcohol down for a while and focus on their profession. Last time I drank was October 16th -- at a local bar and grille in Ft. Lauderdale and at the Flyers game in Sunrise, FL. Before that, I can't tell you when the last time it was that I drank. It just doesn't do much for me at all. I have not enough time for everything I enjoy in life, including my profession -- drinking alcohol is a very small part of it.

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12-05-2009, 11:14 AM
  #45
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Richards and Carter.

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12-05-2009, 11:15 AM
  #46
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We'll see how this plays out. I've read some not so great reports out of Carolina, but the style of play that he had them doing down there should complement our team very well. This team is good at the uptempo game, they just need a coach that is demanding that they pay attention to the details on the backside to enable them to push the game that hard.
Having been down there and following them during his tenure, I can say he should be a perfect fit for the talent on this team. And that includes those guys who drop their gloves. At times, things can look a little helter-skelter, so be prepared.
The biggest issues with a Lavy team is you have to play hard and play smart. It's an read-and-react system, more than is seen in the average flow of the game. This will be a test of the younger players who have not played in such a system (once it is fully established, likely during the Olympic break).

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12-05-2009, 11:16 AM
  #47
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Carter and Coburn. Not playing up to snuff.

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12-05-2009, 11:25 AM
  #48
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100% Homer

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12-05-2009, 11:33 AM
  #49
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Having been down there and following them during his tenure, I can say he should be a perfect fit for the talent on this team. And that includes those guys who drop their gloves. At times, things can look a little helter-skelter, so be prepared.
The biggest issues with a Lavy team is you have to play hard and play smart. It's an read-and-react system, more than is seen in the average flow of the game. This will be a test of the younger players who have not played in such a system (once it is fully established, likely during the Olympic break).
Yeah, if he gets them to a point where they're in control of their tempo (as was the case when they were very good in Carolina), then we should be a dominant offensive team with our forwards and D...and that's while noting that we were rather good under Stevens as it was. However, ideally we should develop into a team that doesn't live and die by our special teams.

Another thing to note is that the Canes (and it has extended under Maurice, so it may not just be Laviolette) have been EXTREMELY good at getting PPs. If that is something Laviolette develops here, then the rest of the league should look the F out. If we start racking up PPs with our unit clicking, we're going to be scoring 4 goals a game.

...need to see it all happen, however.

What I've read/heard and don't like about Laviolette is that he's rigid in what he determines about players. If he decides a guy isn't good enough...he'll never be good enough, no matter what. That's something I don't like to have in a coach.

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12-05-2009, 11:45 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by smacklby View Post
True.... But, I forgot to mention: Richards' performance has been lacking, imo -- as has several other skilled players on the team. Maybe they should put the alcohol down for a while and focus on their profession. Last time I drank was October 16th -- at a local bar and grille in Ft. Lauderdale and at the Flyers game in Sunrise, FL. Before that, I can't tell you when the last time it was that I drank. It just doesn't do much for me at all. I have not enough time for everything I enjoy in life, including my profession -- drinking alcohol is a very small part of it.
You need to decide what is important in life. Clearly your priorities are out of whack.

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