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Old
12-07-2009, 02:55 AM
  #1
FreeVille
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Beefy D-Men

So I've been to about 6 games this year. In all these games I've noticed two things: our defense is very offensive (obviously), but, more importantly, we play soft in our zone.

I noticed this during the St.Louis game, but especially during the Calgary game. Calgary was pretty much man handling all our players (except for Murray, of course). With this, the burden was left for McLaren (who fought McGrattan and got hammered sadly) and Murray to be the physical forces on the ice.

Now, what I would like to see is the Sharks become 'beefier'. I think our forwards are set, and kind of locked in, because we are very deep. BUT I think our bottom 6 pairing of defense man could use an improvement. Huskins, although improving, still plays slow and weak, and it doesnt help Demers or Joslin, or whatever rookie he's playing with. So 3 questions:
1. Who do you keep? Huskins or the rookie?
2. Who do you trade for the other defenseman?
3. Who is that defenseman?

My answer would be to keep the rookie, and trade Huskins (probably a package deal) for Barret Jackman- he's mean, very physical, smart, and a veteran (I would even like to see Rivet back).

Thoughts?

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Old
12-07-2009, 04:37 AM
  #2
matt trick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolalas View Post
So I've been to about 6 games this year. In all these games I've noticed two things: our defense is very offensive (obviously), but, more importantly, we play soft in our zone.

I noticed this during the St.Louis game, but especially during the Calgary game. Calgary was pretty much man handling all our players (except for Murray, of course). With this, the burden was left for McLaren (who fought McGrattan and got hammered sadly) and Murray to be the physical forces on the ice.

Now, what I would like to see is the Sharks become 'beefier'. I think our forwards are set, and kind of locked in, because we are very deep. BUT I think our bottom 6 pairing of defense man could use an improvement. Huskins, although improving, still plays slow and weak, and it doesnt help Demers or Joslin, or whatever rookie he's playing with. So 3 questions:
1. Who do you keep? Huskins or the rookie?
2. Who do you trade for the other defenseman?
3. Who is that defenseman?

My answer would be to keep the rookie, and trade Huskins (probably a package deal) for Barret Jackman- he's mean, very physical, smart, and a veteran (I would even like to see Rivet back).

Thoughts?
We are currently on pace to exceed the cap, going into the bonus cushion. Moving Huskins for an improvement is likely impossible. Exceptions or close enough: Leopold (1.75), Hambius (2.0), Coburn (1.3), Ference (1.4) Z. Michalek (1.55), Seidenberg (2.25), Volchenkov (2.5). To be honest the later two would probably require something else going back, and Michalek should not be available. I think Leopold and Hambius are much more fit to a top 4 role, and could be reasonably available, but they are similar to Vlasic, small (not so much height as in size), good defensively, and not very physical. I am not sure they'd be great fits, as I tend to agree with others we need a guy who is physical, and ideally physical and capable of running the point. I believe Ian White is being overrated by some, underrated by others, but there is no denying his cap hit (850k) and play (both offensive and gritty) make him a good fit.

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12-07-2009, 10:42 AM
  #3
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totally ship Huskins. But I guess the deal would have to be right on both ends eh?

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12-07-2009, 10:56 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt trick View Post
We are currently on pace to exceed the cap, going into the bonus cushion. Moving Huskins for an improvement is likely impossible. Exceptions or close enough: Leopold (1.75), Hambius (2.0), Coburn (1.3), Ference (1.4) Z. Michalek (1.55), Seidenberg (2.25), Volchenkov (2.5). To be honest the later two would probably require something else going back, and Michalek should not be available. I think Leopold and Hambius are much more fit to a top 4 role, and could be reasonably available, but they are similar to Vlasic, small (not so much height as in size), good defensively, and not very physical. I am not sure they'd be great fits, as I tend to agree with others we need a guy who is physical, and ideally physical and capable of running the point. I believe Ian White is being overrated by some, underrated by others, but there is no denying his cap hit (850k) and play (both offensive and gritty) make him a good fit.
I'm guessing that D.W. tried to go around it a little with saving money and bringing in some size with the signing og Leach. But, don't we have the younger Worchester bred Mike Moore ready to step up and add some of that muscle?? Can't say that he's not ready enough for the 6th/7th D role as, in now way can we say that Leach will be better.

I do think though that we are at a point where we do need a 7th D man to platoon some shifts with the likes of Joslin or Demers. Especially in a game such as with the Flames whom bring in some heavy muscle on their own and just banged the he-- out of our D (other than with Murray whom put the smackdown on the bodies that game). It's a game like that, almost in playoff feel that, shows you how important the likes of Murray is to this team. Moore would be a solid addition to compliment him at the back.

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Old
12-07-2009, 12:55 PM
  #5
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I think this issue (getting another defensive dman, ideally a top 4) is the biggest we have. If we don't acquire one, I think we're doomed in the playoffs.

W/r/t the OP's questions:

1. Who do you keep? Huskins or the rookie?
2. Who do you trade for the other defenseman?
3. Who is that defenseman?

1 (and 2, really - as they're the same question). I don't think Huskins has much value b/c DW signed him more than he's worth (really should have been a $800K-1m deal for 1 or 2 yrs). I think either Demers or Joslin could be trade bait - same goes for Mike Moore. Petrecki *ONLY* if it's part of a deal that returns Shea Weber or equivalent.

Other trade bait:
- Clowe (hashed through enough on this board. His recent production is wonderful for his trade value. Would hate to lose him but if we want to get, we have to give)
- Mitchell (needs to start producing and show he's not injury-prone but Couture could push him out)
- Couture (for the right dman, I'd deal him)
- Murray (only b/c he's overpaid, too, but as others have said, we need his toughness badly)
- Pavs (if Couture is ready but it'd have to return a Weber or Suter)
- Seto (same rationale as Pavs)
- any draft pick but our 2010 1st

3. Dman I'd target:
- Hal Gill
- Pavel Kubina
- Cory Sarich
- Adrian Aucoin
- Eric Brewer
- Barrett Jackman
- Anton Volchenkov
- Tim Gleason

Ideally, we get a top 4 but more important, in my mind, is a tough, stay at home who can play PK (so Boyle isn't overextended there).

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12-07-2009, 01:00 PM
  #6
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Gill and Aucoin, no thx.

Kubina would be very good. Sarich too would be good but not as good as Kubina.

Remember, SJ has a problem with lack of offense from the D as well. Only Boyle can do it consistently.. Blake is old and may be gone next year. Vlasic too inconsistent.

Kubina may help both issues: tough responsible D, plus some offense. Volchenkov is great defensivley and tough as nails, but one-dimemensional (no offensive skills)

Brewer I dont know enough about.

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Old
12-07-2009, 01:10 PM
  #7
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Rban, I hear what you're saying. I wouldn't be surprised if DW traded for 2 dmen.

It wwould be near impossible to acquire a tough, physical dman who has offensive skills, too. There just aren't many available... I.e. It would be costly.

Kubina would be great but we'd have to move salary (ie, Clowe +)...

I like Gill. Won a Cup, tough as nails and he'd be better than Huskins, IMO.
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Old
12-07-2009, 01:11 PM
  #8
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Beef isn't the only issue. The guy has to be mobile. Without mobility, forwards like Nash and Iginla will take him apart. Mobility is part of the issue. JayBo is the ideal in terms of size and mobility, but obviously unavailable and impossible in terms of cost. However, I would be thinking along those lines. In terms of thinking about it, some consideration should be given to coaching input. Is losing position more important to the coaching than matching up and competing? IMO, there is some coaching involvement in terms of their valuations of qualities as to why we are seeing issues.

There is also the issue of the PP going stale as Boyle is really the only QB. We have seen it in the last two games. The whole unit becomes stationary. Ehrhoff addressed both of these issues last year. IMO, the Sharks are between the rock and hard place because of cap constraints unless Clowe is moved.

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Old
12-07-2009, 01:27 PM
  #9
TheGooooch
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ESPN has speculation about the Canucks trading OBrien and mention the Sharks as a destination.

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Old
12-07-2009, 01:31 PM
  #10
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Offensive D-men:
Boyle
Blake
Demers

Defensive D-men:
Boyle
Blake
Vlasic
Murray

Shutdown D-men:
Blake
Vlasic (Struggling)

Mobile D-men:
Boyle
Demers

That list makes it pretty clear how important Boyle is to this team doesn't it? Heck you could probably justify including him on the shutdown list too.

Point is, What we lack is a shutdown mobile defensemen. Offense is not a concern as it will allow a player like Demers back in the lineup or Vlasic/Blake to focus a little more on offense.

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12-07-2009, 01:39 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by TheGooooch View Post
ESPN has speculation about the Canucks trading OBrien and mention the Sharks as a destination.
this would be ****ing retarded

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Old
12-07-2009, 01:45 PM
  #12
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After taking into account all of the things stated already (offensive skill, defensive skill, mobility), we basically need Christian Ehrhoff.


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12-07-2009, 01:47 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by PotaGuitar View Post
After taking into account all of the things stated already (offensive skill, defensive skill, mobility), we basically need Christian Ehrhoff.

and a good portion of us were saying that since day 1 of his trade.

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12-07-2009, 02:02 PM
  #14
hockeyball
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PotaGuitar View Post
After taking into account all of the things stated already (offensive skill, defensive skill, mobility), we basically need Christian Ehrhoff.

Yup.

I said Vlasic should be the one to go instead, and I stand by it. Probably could have gotten a better return too.

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12-07-2009, 02:04 PM
  #15
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Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
and a good portion of us were saying that since day 1 of his trade.
Including myself. I was just restating the fact that DW made a huge mistake in trading Error. I would have let Blake walk, and used his money to get Heatley, rather than giving away a top-4 defenseman. Yes Blake's leadership and experience are valuable, but not at the cost of a solid top 4 d-man who would continue to play great hockey for the Sharks after this year, unlike Blake (who will probably retire)

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12-07-2009, 02:13 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PotaGuitar View Post
Including myself. I was just restating the fact that DW made a huge mistake in trading Error. I would have let Blake walk, and used his money to get Heatley, rather than giving away a top-4 defenseman. Yes Blake's leadership and experience are valuable, but not at the cost of a solid top 4 d-man who would continue to play great hockey for the Sharks after this year, unlike Blake (who will probably retire)
That's what I was thinking as well. I would have rather had Erhoff/Vlassic, than Blake/one of (erhoff/vlassic). And we could have given the C to Boyle.

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12-07-2009, 02:18 PM
  #17
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Agree w/ everyone so far - Vlasic is falling out of favor in my eyes.

However, we are where we are... Ehrhoff isn't coming back. So, getting back on track... what should we do now?

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12-07-2009, 02:20 PM
  #18
one2gamble
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PotaGuitar View Post
Including myself. I was just restating the fact that DW made a huge mistake in trading Error. I would have let Blake walk, and used his money to get Heatley, rather than giving away a top-4 defenseman. Yes Blake's leadership and experience are valuable, but not at the cost of a solid top 4 d-man who would continue to play great hockey for the Sharks after this year, unlike Blake (who will probably retire)
giving away error had nothing to do with heatley. Error went because of bad contracts to Clowe, Huskins and Mitchell and possibly Yawneys hatred for Europeans.


Last edited by one2gamble: 12-07-2009 at 02:42 PM.
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Old
12-07-2009, 02:51 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Offensive D-men:
Boyle
Blake
Demers

Defensive D-men:
Boyle
Blake
Vlasic
Murray

Shutdown D-men:
Blake
Vlasic (Struggling)

Mobile D-men:
Boyle
Demers
H.B., I notice you have no mention of Huskins and Joslin there? And you are totally right no to have mentioned them. Joslin has been pretty good in his role and will probably develop into a solid 5th/6th D man but, on a big game like against the flames the other night, did you notice him much?? With Demers, I noticed him out there quite a lot. For the life of me, I cannot understand why Demers is sitting in Worchester right now. Even if Joslin stayed up, why in the world is Huskins getting so much playing time????? And does anyone know why in the world Huskins is getting so much time on the power play??????????

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
There is also the issue of the PP going stale as Boyle is really the only QB. We have seen it in the last two games. The whole unit becomes stationary. Ehrhoff addressed both of these issues last year.
Very good points as, as soon as Demers was demoted, the power play went out the window. He provided another plus to the P.P. in playing it with Boyle. They looked solid beside each other out there. He made little errors and no more than a couple others on the D and still can't see why he was demoted as compared to the errors the likes of Huskins and Vlasic are making out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PotaGuitar View Post
Including myself. I was just restating the fact that DW made a huge mistake in trading Error. I would have let Blake walk, and used his money to get Heatley, rather than giving away a top-4 defenseman. Yes Blake's leadership and experience are valuable, but not at the cost of a solid top 4 d-man who would continue to play great hockey for the Sharks after this year, unlike Blake (who will probably retire)
And to think, we had Ehrhoff for another 2 years and kept Blake in his place and after this current season, we have neither. Okay D.W. now, doesn't the old cliche state you start building a team from the back end?

Let's all not hope Boyle sustains any injury like he had a couple years ago otherwise, we are really really really done for at the back end.

Anybody know how the two players we recieved for Ehrhoff are working out anyhow?

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Old
12-07-2009, 03:05 PM
  #20
hockeyball
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
H.B., I notice you have no mention of Huskins and Joslin there? And you are totally right no to have mentioned them. Joslin has been pretty good in his role and will probably develop into a solid 5th/6th D man but, on a big game like against the flames the other night, did you notice him much?? With Demers, I noticed him out there quite a lot. For the life of me, I cannot understand why Demers is sitting in Worchester right now. Even if Joslin stayed up, why in the world is Huskins getting so much playing time????? And does anyone know why in the world Huskins is getting so much time on the power play??????????
I left them out because they really don't fit in any of those categories as stand out players. They are both average defensive D-men at this point. I think Joslin has some potential and think Demers is down for a few reasons:

1) To give Joslin some development time with Blake/Boyle.
2) To see where he's at and possibly showcase him some.
3) Demers had some pretty bad gaff's the last few games up. He fell on his butt several times causing atleast two goals against as well. They may feel he was getting fatigued and are giving him some cool-off time.

Quote:
Very good points as, as soon as Demers was demoted, the power play went out the window.
I agree, he looked great, the other two look lost. Still, I don't think they care all that much and are trying to develop their depth (or see if they need to add to it) while the Shark's are winning and at the top of the standings. It's what i'd do.

Quote:
And to think, we had Ehrhoff for another 2 years and kept Blake in his place and after this current season, we have neither.
Yup. When I made some comments about this in the off-season I was torn up by just about everyone. "He's young! Defensemen take time!" but I recognized that one of them HAD to go (as I was almost certain Heatley was going to end up a Shark as soon as Murray confirmed he had received calls from DW) and I felt that skillset wise Ehrhoff was the harder to replace. Proven talent over potential talent. Vlasic suffers from a seriously difficult to overcome issue, he's timid and he's soft. These are aspects of his personality that are effecting his effectiveness. These are not skills he needs to learn, this is a very personal change he needs to make. Those are the most difficult, and sometimes impossible, issues to overcome.

Ehrhoff was fast, excellent defensively, and offensively gifted. Aside from the occasional gaff (which is a skill that is much easier to improve, and he was) he was perfect for his position on the team.

DW screwed up, big time. I bet he knows it too. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see him dump Vlasic now to try and cover up his miscalculation.

Quote:
Anybody know how the two players we recieved for Ehrhoff are working out anyhow?
Last I heard, as expected. White is crap and we should expect that 2nd rounder. I have no idea about Rhaimi, which probably isn't a good sign.

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12-07-2009, 03:52 PM
  #21
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We need shutdown Dman, and we only have Blake. Vlasic is great stopping breakaways but he is worthless under pressure in his own zone on the last minute of the game. Let's get Suter.

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12-07-2009, 06:22 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
Anybody know how the two players we recieved for Ehrhoff are working out anyhow?
Daniel Rahimi - 28 games played, 3 points and 51 penalty minutes in the Swedish Elite League.

Patrick White - 16 GP, 8 points and 0 PIM for the Golden Gophers.

I'd say Pat so far has looked decent. Not the home run some thought when he was drafted, but is starting to bring his game around.

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12-07-2009, 07:38 PM
  #23
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Our defense is a problem. IMO it was worth it just for the fact that we got dany ******* heatley but there are still things DW can do now and/or in the off season. My main concern is what happens when Blake walks.

We have this defense to fill in before next year:

Murray-Boyle
Vlasic-???
Huskins-???

Some guys that interest me for these spots are:

Gleason, Sarich, Girardi- Trade options for Vlasic's pairing

Hamhuis, Volchenkov, Zbynek Michalek, Mitchell - UFAs for Vlasic's pairing

Erskine, Giordano - Trade options for Huskins pairing

Exelby, Colaiacovo, Seidenberg, Eaton - UFA's for Huskins pairing


My ideal situation would be to trade Clowe for Gleason and a pick. Then sign Exelby or Eaton to a 1 year deal worth around 1-1.5 million.

That would give us

Heatley-Thornton-Setoguchi
Couture-Pavelski-Marleau
Mclaren-Mitchell-Mcginn
Ortmeyer-Nichol-Staubitz

Murray-Boyle
Vlasic-Gleason
Huskins-Eaton

Nabokov

Im not sure this fits under the cap but we never will know what does until we know what Seto/Pavs/Marleau/Nabby sign for.

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12-07-2009, 08:05 PM
  #24
hockeyball
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Originally Posted by ThorntonFan19 View Post
Our defense is a problem. IMO it was worth it just for the fact that we got dany ******* heatley but there are still things DW can do now and/or in the off season. My main concern is what happens when Blake walks.

We have this defense to fill in before next year:

Murray-Boyle
Vlasic-???
Huskins-???

Some guys that interest me for these spots are:

Gleason, Sarich, Girardi- Trade options for Vlasic's pairing

Hamhuis, Volchenkov, Zbynek Michalek, Mitchell - UFAs for Vlasic's pairing

Erskine, Giordano - Trade options for Huskins pairing

Exelby, Colaiacovo, Seidenberg, Eaton - UFA's for Huskins pairing


My ideal situation would be to trade Clowe for Gleason and a pick. Then sign Exelby or Eaton to a 1 year deal worth around 1-1.5 million.

That would give us

Heatley-Thornton-Setoguchi
Couture-Pavelski-Marleau
Mclaren-Mitchell-Mcginn
Ortmeyer-Nichol-Staubitz

Murray-Boyle
Vlasic-Gleason
Huskins-Eaton

Nabokov

Im not sure this fits under the cap but we never will know what does until we know what Seto/Pavs/Marleau/Nabby sign for.
Atleast one of Demers, Joslin, Moore or Patrecki is going to fill one of those spots next season. That's undeniable and a good thing in my opinion (you have to give guys a spot to compete for to get them to do their best).

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12-08-2009, 12:42 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Atleast one of Demers, Joslin, Moore or Patrecki is going to fill one of those spots next season. That's undeniable and a good thing in my opinion (you have to give guys a spot to compete for to get them to do their best).
I would rather just stick with a more reliable veteran to play on that pairing. Petrecki seems to be taking longer than expected. Until Joslin proves he can provide something besides being a liability defensively he's not ready to play on a pairing with huskins (who is also suspect defensively). Moore I don't know much about. Demers I like but I would rather have a defensive dman with Huskins.

They could improve and they probably will but at this point I would rather have Eaton than any of them.

Also leaving them in the AHL could be good for their developement. See Detroit.

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