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Old
12-08-2009, 01:13 AM
  #26
shoot the puck
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I've actually been pretty surprised by our D. I'm very happy with how they've played, how the young ones have rocked, how Huskins who is this years whipping boy has played, how Murray is handling his minutes, and how little amount the shots on goal there have been.

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12-08-2009, 01:56 AM
  #27
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I must say I haven't seen the sharks play at all this season stupid time zone and work. What's with all the hate for Vlasic?

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12-08-2009, 03:24 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by SJSharkz View Post
I must say I haven't seen the sharks play at all this season stupid time zone and work. What's with all the hate for Vlasic?
It's mostly unfounded. He's the new whipping boy now that Ehrhoff is gone. He's playing no worse than last season, IMO, and his shot has improved, along with his ability to get it on net.

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12-08-2009, 07:43 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by tarlinian View Post
It's mostly unfounded. He's the new whipping boy now that Ehrhoff is gone. He's playing no worse than last season, IMO, and his shot has improved, along with his ability to get it on net.

The flipside is that he isn't playing all that much better (if at all), and he needs to, because a bigger responsibility is on his shoulder now that erhoff's gone.

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12-08-2009, 08:05 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by tarlinian View Post
It's mostly unfounded. He's the new whipping boy now that Ehrhoff is gone. He's playing no worse than last season, IMO, and his shot has improved, along with his ability to get it on net.
Im pretty sure the new whipping boy is huskins. Though vlasic really hasn't improved at the rate most would of thought. It'd be nice for him just to be more physical on a more consistant basis.

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12-08-2009, 09:24 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by tarlinian View Post
It's mostly unfounded. He's the new whipping boy now that Ehrhoff is gone. He's playing no worse than last season, IMO, and his shot has improved, along with his ability to get it on net.
Its not unfounded at all. You could argue that hes worse in his own zone than he was as a rookie. He has no idea what to do in front of his own net. Hes relatively soft on the boards.

He has good stick work and is pretty good at reading the transition but the issue is he isnt improving at the rate expected with the load hes getting. The Sharks need someone to take some of his minutes because Vlasic simply needs help.

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12-08-2009, 10:01 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Atleast one of Demers, Joslin, Moore or Patrecki is going to fill one of those spots next season. That's undeniable and a good thing in my opinion (you have to give guys a spot to compete for to get them to do their best).
Agreed and, if the cap goes down, we could see at least a couple. A good thing I believe though. I'm only really really hoping to see Moore get a shot at some time this season. The revolving door has got to open for him at some time.

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Originally Posted by CBJenga View Post
The flipside is that he isn't playing all that much better (if at all), and he needs to, because a bigger responsibility is on his shoulder now that erhoff's gone.
I agree but, still can't see how Huskins is getting so much power play time. I'd much rather see the likes of Demers and Joslin take up the extra time.

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12-08-2009, 10:21 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
I agree but, still can't see how Huskins is getting so much power play time. I'd much rather see the likes of Demers and Joslin take up the extra time.
Again, I think Demers 'hit the wall' to some degree and they sent him back down to get some rest. He was playing fantastically and then seemed to lose a few steps and then started falling down all over the place. I think sending him down is the right thing to do. He needs to work his way up to the stamina required for a full season in the NHL and will be the better for it.

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Old
12-08-2009, 10:32 AM
  #34
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From what I know, Petrecki is a fairly beefy defensemen thats coming up in the ranks. But I don't our strategy is to just rough up the O attackers. Its pretty much playing keep away with a really good O.

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Old
12-08-2009, 10:48 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
Its not unfounded at all. You could argue that hes worse in his own zone than he was as a rookie. He has no idea what to do in front of his own net. Hes relatively soft on the boards.

He has good stick work and is pretty good at reading the transition but the issue is he isnt improving at the rate expected with the load hes getting. The Sharks need someone to take some of his minutes because Vlasic simply needs help.
Agree, mostly but I'd say he does know what to do in front of the net (clear bodies/sticks) but won't. It's a mental thing as others have said. Same on the boards.

Classic example was against the Flames in the 3rd w/ a minute or so left. His dman pair rimmed the puck around the boards for Pickles, who had a good lead to retrieve it. Yet, a Flame came in hard to forecheck.... like a WR in football running across the middle and getting "aligator arms", Pickles slowed up and so both players arrived at the puck at the same time. Pickles didn't even try to body out the player - just stuck his stick in. The puck got tied up along our boards for 15 seconds or so.

Classic Pickles this year, if always. Lacks toughness/grit/fight.


Edit: on the Ehrhoff vs. Pickles argument... the pro-Pickles argument basically was he's so young and has so much potential. Well, start showing it b/c this is when we're expected to win the Cup. He isn't showing tough D and by golly, even Demers has shown more offensive panache...


Last edited by Gilligans Island: 12-08-2009 at 10:57 AM.
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Old
12-08-2009, 10:58 AM
  #36
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I actually don't think we need a 'beefy' D-man. We have Murray (the beefiest D-man in the league) and Blake is a fitness machine and fairly large himself. Plus Patrecki is coming up.

We need a mobile shutdown defensemen who can carry the puck well and make a good first pass. It would be nice for them to have offensive flair like Ehrhoff did as well but that is unlikely to be available or affordable. Plus we have Demers to fill in some of that offense hopefully.

Not sure who that is, but I think that player resolved a lot of issues for us.

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Old
12-08-2009, 11:13 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I actually don't think we need a 'beefy' D-man. We have Murray (the beefiest D-man in the league) and Blake is a fitness machine and fairly large himself. Plus Patrecki is coming up.

We need a mobile shutdown defensemen who can carry the puck well and make a good first pass. It would be nice for them to have offensive flair like Ehrhoff did as well but that is unlikely to be available or affordable. Plus we have Demers to fill in some of that offense hopefully.

Not sure who that is, but I think that player resolved a lot of issues for us.
petrecki is two years out so its pointless to bring him up.

The Sharks basically need error. Someone who can skate, who isnt afraid to go to the corners, who can play an intense two way game and has decent enough offensive awareness to qb the second pp unit.

Beef isnt just about size its about strength and a willingness to play a physical game if needed. Heres the issue.

Vlasic = Soft, average to below average offense
Huskins = Soft, below average everything at his pay rate
Murray = Strong, below average offense
Blake = Strong, slightly above average offense but lacks mobility
Boyle = Strong but lacks the size to play that game, good offensively
Joslin = I cant tell yet, seems to have a good shot, relatively mobile but meh.
Demers = I dont even know if he will stick in teh NHL. Seems to have the skating and awareness to become a good pp qb and offensive dman. Isnt afraid to take a hit but still lacks some size.

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Old
12-08-2009, 12:18 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
petrecki is two years out so its pointless to bring him up.

The Sharks basically need error. Someone who can skate, who isnt afraid to go to the corners, who can play an intense two way game and has decent enough offensive awareness to qb the second pp unit.

Beef isnt just about size its about strength and a willingness to play a physical game if needed. Heres the issue.

Vlasic = Soft, average to below average offense
Huskins = Soft, below average everything at his pay rate
Murray = Strong, below average offense
Blake = Strong, slightly above average offense but lacks mobility
Boyle = Strong but lacks the size to play that game, good offensively
Joslin = I cant tell yet, seems to have a good shot, relatively mobile but meh.
Demers = I dont even know if he will stick in teh NHL. Seems to have the skating and awareness to become a good pp qb and offensive dman. Isnt afraid to take a hit but still lacks some size.
hehe. You called Boyle 'good' offensively

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Old
12-08-2009, 02:34 PM
  #39
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Agreed with the critiques about Vlasic. I've noticed since his rookie year that he is subpar with the puck, but it was okay then because he was just 19 and a rookie.

I noticed in his second year that he cannot handle strong forechecks and people in front of the net. But it was okay because it was his second year.

I noticed last year a combination of the above and it was starting to get frustrating because he kept getting put into situations where his mistakes were magnified (on the PP's where he's usually the one who couldn't keep the puck in the zone, or flubs a pass, for example).

This year is more of the same. He now seems even more tentative with the puck and still gets bullied by strong forechecks, which teams have been doing to the Sharks a lot lately.

I still like Vlasic, he's still really good with his stick and positioning and those skills alone will make him a serviceable defenseman, but there are downsides to just being able to play that game. He's now playing full-time for the 4th year and I can't treat him like Boy Wonder anymore. I accept and am okay with the fact that he's never going to be a physical player but I'd like to see him improve with the puck.

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Old
12-08-2009, 02:37 PM
  #40
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Again, I think Demers 'hit the wall' to some degree and they sent him back down to get some rest. He was playing fantastically and then seemed to lose a few steps and then started falling down all over the place. I think sending him down is the right thing to do. He needs to work his way up to the stamina required for a full season in the NHL and will be the better for it.
True, still needs to adapt but, that's why I think if we played with a 7th D man, such as Moore, it just adds a platoon for him or the likes of Huskins if needed, and adds some much needed size back there to make it more difficult for the opposition in positioning away from the likes of Murray. I'm definately for a Demers/Moore platoon.

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Originally Posted by one2gamble View Post
Beef isnt just about size its about strength and a willingness to play a physical game if needed. Heres the issue.

Vlasic = Soft, average to below average offense
Huskins = Soft, below average everything at his pay rate
Murray = Strong, below average offense
Blake = Strong, slightly above average offense but lacks mobility
Boyle = Strong but lacks the size to play that game, good offensively
Joslin = I cant tell yet, seems to have a good shot, relatively mobile but meh.
Demers = I dont even know if he will stick in teh NHL. Seems to have the skating and awareness to become a good pp qb and offensive dman. Isnt afraid to take a hit but still lacks some size.
So true on the physicality. Remember, last season and the season before, when some of us, as now, were stating the need for some more size back there and, many were, as now, not for it thinking it wasn't needed, were shown to be incorrect come the playoffs. We got pushed around like mad back there. You can just see the set up for the same happening again.

We resolved a lot of this with the very good third line up front with Malhotra/Ort/Nichols. Now we definately need a little more 'sandpaper' at the back. This back group is looking quite soft right now. I keep pushing for Mike Moore and just want to see him get a chance early in the season as, if it doesn't work with him, then we can look elsewhere and it gives us time to do so. But financially due to cap space, it seems the best route at the time, unless we move money as with Huskins.

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Old
12-08-2009, 02:43 PM
  #41
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well personally id like to have it all in the dman the sharks trade for...I think that is Ryan Suter but he is highly valued in Nashville but they also desperatly need scoring; 30 less goals then the sharks...some might castrate me for this proposal but I think it makes alot of sense

Suter
Hornqvist
Franson

for
Vlasic
Setoguchi
Zalewski/Vesce/Joslin

Its kind of hard to value who would be the final player for the Sharks, I would be curious to get some Nash fans opinion on this trade cause they might not even do it but essentially
Suter replaces Vlasic while providing more offence and physical presence
Hornqvist replaces Seto,he is projected as a 2nd line RW,he is no Seto but he would help solve some cap issues next year as well
Franson fills our top 6 and replaces Blake next year, this kid is very very good

Ive just been thinking about it and players like Clowe do not come around as often as guys like Vlasic and Seto, Gooch bleeds offense but hes been falling off completly on D, he cost us the game against Calgary plus we are already stacked with players with excelent shots

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Old
12-08-2009, 02:52 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by stoner View Post
well personally id like to have it all in the dman the sharks trade for...I think that is Ryan Suter but he is highly valued in Nashville but they also desperatly need scoring; 30 less goals then the sharks...some might castrate me for this proposal but I think it makes alot of sense

Suter
Hornqvist
Franson

for
Vlasic
Setoguchi
Zalewski/Vesce/Joslin

Its kind of hard to value who would be the final player for the Sharks, I would be curious to get some Nash fans opinion on this trade cause they might not even do it but essentially
Suter replaces Vlasic while providing more offence and physical presence
Hornqvist replaces Seto,he is projected as a 2nd line RW,he is no Seto but he would help solve some cap issues next year as well
Franson fills our top 6 and replaces Blake next year, this kid is very very good

Ive just been thinking about it and players like Clowe do not come around as often as guys like Vlasic and Seto, Gooch bleeds offense but hes been falling off completly on D, he cost us the game against Calgary plus we are already stacked with players with excelent shots
It really comes down to the replacement. Without knowing that, it's tough to say. The other difference is that Clowe has a big salary THIS year, and Seto does not. Even with next year in mind, we can't go over the cap this year either.

I actually like your trade though, but we are only losing 4.7m and gaining 5m. Unless you are planning on leaving someone in the A, and maybe that is what your saying. I like Suter, but I'm not sure he solves our shutdown defensemen shortage any better than Vlasic. I think we actually get less defensive, and Franson being so young I don't think he has enough experience yet for that role. I think it's fair value, but doesn't solve the right problems.

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Old
12-08-2009, 03:09 PM
  #43
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It really comes down to the replacement. Without knowing that, it's tough to say. The other difference is that Clowe has a big salary THIS year, and Seto does not. Even with next year in mind, we can't go over the cap this year either.

I actually like your trade though, but we are only losing 4.7m and gaining 5m. Unless you are planning on leaving someone in the A, and maybe that is what your saying. I like Suter, but I'm not sure he solves our shutdown defensemen shortage any better than Vlasic. I think we actually get less defensive, and Franson being so young I don't think he has enough experience yet for that role. I think it's fair value, but doesn't solve the right problems.
Seto will be getting more then Clowe next year though, Suter is a slight downgrade defensivly to Pickles but every other element of his game more then makes up for it, he is also a Wisconsin boy like Pavelski, they went to the same college and will both be on team USA, since he would prob be on the 2nd pairing they should devolop some very good chemistry, Franson is miles ahead of Joslin on Demers, he would significantly improve the bottom pairing with Huskins and if you look at his stats hes always been improving he would learn ALOT from Blake

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Old
12-08-2009, 03:14 PM
  #44
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So I've been to about 6 games this year. In all these games I've noticed two things: our defense is very offensive (obviously), but, more importantly, we play soft in our zone.

I noticed this during the St.Louis game, but especially during the Calgary game. Calgary was pretty much man handling all our players (except for Murray, of course). With this, the burden was left for McLaren (who fought McGrattan and got hammered sadly) and Murray to be the physical forces on the ice.

Now, what I would like to see is the Sharks become 'beefier'. I think our forwards are set, and kind of locked in, because we are very deep. BUT I think our bottom 6 pairing of defense man could use an improvement. Huskins, although improving, still plays slow and weak, and it doesnt help Demers or Joslin, or whatever rookie he's playing with. So 3 questions:
1. Who do you keep? Huskins or the rookie?
2. Who do you trade for the other defenseman?
3. Who is that defenseman?

My answer would be to keep the rookie, and trade Huskins (probably a package deal) for Barret Jackman- he's mean, very physical, smart, and a veteran (I would even like to see Rivet back).

Thoughts?
They all need to work out with Vlasic and lift weights and add some bulk while maintaining speed.

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12-08-2009, 05:04 PM
  #45
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I'm critical of Pickles, because it seems like he doesn't want to play Physical. I would like Pickles to play more physical. But he did have lessons from Hannan.

I would like us to get Hannuis. (sp). He is mobile, he's a shutdown D and he has a great shot. But, Nashville probably wants a first rounder, Nhl ready D man, and probably a prospect.

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12-08-2009, 07:05 PM
  #46
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I'm not saying he's perfect, but the main issue people seem to be having with Vlasic is that he isn't doing everything right. You guys complain that he can't clear the zone, from my viewing, that's rarely where the Sharks have problems. All the dmen this year have been very good at keeping the cycle to the outside and limiting scoring chances, hence the absurdly good PK. They are almost always getting burned in transition or by terrible winger coverage on the pointmen and others in the high slot. To those saying he doesn't know what he's doing in the crease. That's just wrong. Yeah, he doesn't manhandle guys and isn't as effective as Murray, but expecting Vlasic to be as good as Murray in that area is just as silly as expecting Murray to be as good as Boyle in the offensive zone, it just can't happen. (In that area, he's no worse than Boyle, but you don't hear anyone bashing Boyle for that.) He's easily the best defenseman on the team (one of the best in the league, IMO) at defending transition opportunities and has gotten better this year in the offensive zone. His shot is not as miserable as last year's, and it's gotten a bit more accurate as well. And he's still only 22. Yeah, he made the NHL 4 years ago, but that was on the basis of his one strength. Most players have a chance to round out their game in juniors and the AHL; he never got that chance, and it's always more difficult to learn on the job, but to say he hasn't improved since then is just plain wrong. The decline of Blake between last year and this year should have resulted in a much greater lack of effectiveness in that d-pairing if Vlasic hadn't improved. It's not as good as it was to begin last season, but it's still the best d-pairing (by far) at actually keeping the puck out of the net.

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12-09-2009, 12:09 AM
  #47
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I'm not saying he's perfect, but the main issue people seem to be having with Vlasic is that he isn't doing everything right. You guys complain that he can't clear the zone, from my viewing, that's rarely where the Sharks have problems. All the dmen this year have been very good at keeping the cycle to the outside and limiting scoring chances, hence the absurdly good PK. They are almost always getting burned in transition or by terrible winger coverage on the pointmen and others in the high slot. To those saying he doesn't know what he's doing in the crease. That's just wrong. Yeah, he doesn't manhandle guys and isn't as effective as Murray, but expecting Vlasic to be as good as Murray in that area is just as silly as expecting Murray to be as good as Boyle in the offensive zone, it just can't happen. (In that area, he's no worse than Boyle, but you don't hear anyone bashing Boyle for that.) He's easily the best defenseman on the team (one of the best in the league, IMO) at defending transition opportunities and has gotten better this year in the offensive zone. His shot is not as miserable as last year's, and it's gotten a bit more accurate as well. And he's still only 22. Yeah, he made the NHL 4 years ago, but that was on the basis of his one strength. Most players have a chance to round out their game in juniors and the AHL; he never got that chance, and it's always more difficult to learn on the job, but to say he hasn't improved since then is just plain wrong. The decline of Blake between last year and this year should have resulted in a much greater lack of effectiveness in that d-pairing if Vlasic hadn't improved. It's not as good as it was to begin last season, but it's still the best d-pairing (by far) at actually keeping the puck out of the net.
I agree with pretty much all of that, but the real problem with Vlasic is he crumbles under pressure. Under a strong forecheck, or just a chippy game you can litteraly hold your breath until Vlasic either coughs the puck up along the boards, makes a bad chip, or rushes a pass and flat out gives it to the other team.

He lack's composure under pressure. He has certainly not improved in this area and may have actually regressed in the last few years. This is a serious problem, one that makes him an ineffective playoff performer, and one that is extremely difficult to 'teach'.

I like the kid, but he either finds it in himself to stay calm, confident, and composed under pressure or he has no future on a playoff team.

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12-09-2009, 01:02 AM
  #48
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Vlasic is going to be fine. He is growing each year but is being asked to take on more each year which divides his focus and make him unable to fall back on "playing a simple game and limiting his mistakes."

It wasn't that long ago when MEV's game was to recover the puck, use his stick to gain leverage over an opponent and maintain strongside pressure, keep shots to the outside and shoot the puck out of the zone. Now he is being asked to do so much more and take a top 3 role on the team. I think taking him off the PP or limiting his time recently, might be to allow him to focus on fewer parts of his game.

I have consistently noticed that Vlasic needs a sturdy stay at home defender to posses the puck and calm things down in the defensive zone. When Blake is healthy, that pairing works fine. Its not just Blake that gets better, but both Blake and Vlasic who get better. Its not going to be a surprise to me to see him improve his game and start taking down more minutes again.

Personally I don't limit Vlasic's upside because he has demonstrated generally a calmness with the puck and by all accounts, is very smart. I hear interviewers constantly give him props for decision making. Scott Niedermayer isn't that much different in size versus Vlasic and I've seem Vlasic effectively control the boards. I don't expect that MEV will have the offensive potential of Niedermayer, largely because he isn't as good a skater - but he's still very young and had a pretty good offensive game in juniors. So its way too early to get too hard on him.

On the OP, injuries to Blake (shoulder) and Boyle (I think he's still playing with a bad hand or wrist) has slowed the cohesion of the defense. Huskins is a good bottom pair defender but not as effective without a partner who can skate and make good decisions with a first pass. I do think we will pick up a stay at home defenseman at the deadline myself, but there is still time.

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Old
12-09-2009, 09:59 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by WineShark View Post
Vlasic is going to be fine. He is growing each year but is being asked to take on more each year which divides his focus and make him unable to fall back on "playing a simple game and limiting his mistakes."

It wasn't that long ago when MEV's game was to recover the puck, use his stick to gain leverage over an opponent and maintain strongside pressure, keep shots to the outside and shoot the puck out of the zone. Now he is being asked to do so much more and take a top 3 role on the team. I think taking him off the PP or limiting his time recently, might be to allow him to focus on fewer parts of his game.

I have consistently noticed that Vlasic needs a sturdy stay at home defender to posses the puck and calm things down in the defensive zone. When Blake is healthy, that pairing works fine. Its not just Blake that gets better, but both Blake and Vlasic who get better. Its not going to be a surprise to me to see him improve his game and start taking down more minutes again.

Personally I don't limit Vlasic's upside because he has demonstrated generally a calmness with the puck and by all accounts, is very smart. I hear interviewers constantly give him props for decision making. Scott Niedermayer isn't that much different in size versus Vlasic and I've seem Vlasic effectively control the boards. I don't expect that MEV will have the offensive potential of Niedermayer, largely because he isn't as good a skater - but he's still very young and had a pretty good offensive game in juniors. So its way too early to get too hard on him.

On the OP, injuries to Blake (shoulder) and Boyle (I think he's still playing with a bad hand or wrist) has slowed the cohesion of the defense. Huskins is a good bottom pair defender but not as effective without a partner who can skate and make good decisions with a first pass. I do think we will pick up a stay at home defenseman at the deadline myself, but there is still time.
Vlasic hesitates and does succumb to pressure. Check the last game/goal of the Dallas series. Check last year's Anaheim series. Check Calgary two and a half years ago. He maintains position, and hesitates to jump and gain that leverage when the puck is bobbled. His numbers at behindthenet last year showed that his presence on the PP was like throwing cold water on the group (same for Cheech; Seto would light fires as did Ehrhoff). By eyeball, he misses wide in close when he pinches more than Ehrhoff did. His strength is his stick, but that is not enough. Lidstrom is the model for defense for someone of Vlasic's size and Lidstrom engages the offensive player far more than Vlasic. Vlasic improved his shotblocking last year but that was an abysmal number the year before.

For all the praise that Vlasic/Blake got for their defense, they did it for a short window of time. Do you know who was the top defensive guy on PK last year? It is showing now in who is selected to engage top units. I was shocked by the answer last year (it definitely wasn't Ehrhoff). I will give another part of that answer, Murray was the worst by the numbers of the regulars.

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12-09-2009, 10:02 AM
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matt trick
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Vlasic hesitates and does succumb to pressure. Check the last game/goal of the Dallas series. Check last year's Anaheim series. Check Calgary two and a half years ago. He maintains position, and hesitates to jump and gain that leverage when the puck is bobbled. His numbers at behindthenet last year showed that his presence on the PP was like throwing cold water on the group (same for Cheech; Seto would light fires as did Ehrhoff). By eyeball, he misses wide in close when he pinches more than Ehrhoff did. His strength is his stick, but that is not enough. Lidstrom is the model for defense for someone of Vlasic's size and Lidstrom engages the offensive player far more than Vlasic. Vlasic improved his shotblocking last year but that was an abysmal number the year before.

For all the praise that Vlasic/Blake got for their defense, they did it for a short window of time. Do you know who was the top defensive guy on PK last year? It is showing now in who is selected to engage top units. I was shocked by the answer last year (it definitely wasn't Ehrhoff). I will give another part of that answer, Murray was the worst by the numbers of the regulars.
And interestingly enough he isn't #1 by time this year, luckily we haven't needed him to be.

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