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Old
12-09-2009, 10:20 AM
  #51
SJeasy
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Originally Posted by matt trick View Post
And interestingly enough he isn't #1 by time this year, luckily we haven't needed him to be.
I'm going to have to be nicer to Huskins now; he's leading the team on PK.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_...team=S.J&pos=D

What is shocking about Huskin's numbers is the quality of competition and quality of teammate. I use +-/ON for 60 as the base rating but then check back to competition and teammate to make sure that it isn't too skewed. Right now, Blake is getting the easy matchups.

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12-09-2009, 10:30 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Vlasic hesitates and does succumb to pressure. Check the last game/goal of the Dallas series. Check last year's Anaheim series. Check Calgary two and a half years ago. He maintains position, and hesitates to jump and gain that leverage when the puck is bobbled. His numbers at behindthenet last year showed that his presence on the PP was like throwing cold water on the group (same for Cheech; Seto would light fires as did Ehrhoff). By eyeball, he misses wide in close when he pinches more than Ehrhoff did. His strength is his stick, but that is not enough. Lidstrom is the model for defense for someone of Vlasic's size and Lidstrom engages the offensive player far more than Vlasic. Vlasic improved his shotblocking last year but that was an abysmal number the year before.
Easy (and others), did Lidstrom learning how to engage at these moments - instincts to aggressively close gaps? If so, I have hope for Pickles. If it was (or is) mostly an innate skill, then Pickles will have a harder time.

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12-09-2009, 10:40 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
Easy (and others), did Lidstrom learning how to engage at these moments - instincts to aggressively close gaps? If so, I have hope for Pickles. If it was (or is) mostly an innate skill, then Pickles will have a harder time.
He's done it for so long that I don't recall. He did have some very historic figures from which to learn (Coffey and Murphy).

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12-09-2009, 10:53 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Vlasic hesitates and does succumb to pressure. Check the last game/goal of the Dallas series. Check last year's Anaheim series. Check Calgary two and a half years ago. He maintains position, and hesitates to jump and gain that leverage when the puck is bobbled. His numbers at behindthenet last year showed that his presence on the PP was like throwing cold water on the group (same for Cheech; Seto would light fires as did Ehrhoff). By eyeball, he misses wide in close when he pinches more than Ehrhoff did. His strength is his stick, but that is not enough. Lidstrom is the model for defense for someone of Vlasic's size and Lidstrom engages the offensive player far more than Vlasic. Vlasic improved his shotblocking last year but that was an abysmal number the year before.

For all the praise that Vlasic/Blake got for their defense, they did it for a short window of time. Do you know who was the top defensive guy on PK last year? It is showing now in who is selected to engage top units. I was shocked by the answer last year (it definitely wasn't Ehrhoff). I will give another part of that answer, Murray was the worst by the numbers of the regulars.
Your observations are aligned with mine. His partner makes all the difference though. Vlasic's shortcomings come to the surface more often when his partner is lower tier (Huskins, Semenov, etc), or more recently when Blake has been hurt. Blake was hurt in the P/O's and while Vlasic is a little better since Blake returned, he isn't playing the way he can.

But I'm not ready to agree with several who seem to believe his upside is defined by his current weaknesses. I think he will continue to improve and eventually turn into a very solid defenseman, probably a #2 but he still has upside beyond that as a 22 year old.

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Old
12-09-2009, 11:00 AM
  #55
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I've been saying for a while Vlasic was overrated. He needs to learn how to assert himself and compete harder. Even the notoriously soft chokers JT and Patty Marleau are more physical and have more edge. From my viewing of the games, my boy Douglass' problems seem to come from trying to do too much, hitting or covering someone else's guy or just being in the wrong place, I hope its correctable and not just foot speed. By most accounts he's smart enough to fix those correctable errors, and it seems like at this many games in there are less frequent mistakes than the first 10 or 15 from him.

I was as confused as anyone at the Huskins (and Ehrhoff) deal, but actually since I've seen him playing this year, I see upside in his game. If he can get settled down and play to the potential I think I see, he should be better than Luko was. I see him at least willing to attempt fast-paced passes out of his zone that others hesitate or shy away from more, and he doesn't seem hopeless that he will be able to connect most of the time on the right play to start up the offense. Maybe nobody else is seeing that, though. On his PK/defense, I didn't notice that either, and that's good news. I see him sort of as an Alex Smith (49ers) who looks like he could be decent - good if he really gets his head wrapped around everything he needs to do.

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Old
12-09-2009, 11:01 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by WineShark View Post
Your observations are aligned with mine. His partner makes all the difference though. Vlasic's shortcomings come to the surface more often when his partner is lower tier (Huskins, Semenov, etc), or more recently when Blake has been hurt. Blake was hurt in the P/O's and while Vlasic is a little better since Blake returned, he isn't playing the way he can.

But I'm not ready to agree with several who seem to believe his upside is defined by his current weaknesses. I think he will continue to improve and eventually turn into a very solid defenseman, probably a #2 but he still has upside beyond that as a 22 year old.
A lot of people have compared him to Lidstrom-lite, but I've always seen his high end as a lesser Timonen. Not physical, not big, but solid offensively, great stick work defensively, and extremely smart. However, I am not sure that he has shown he wants to get to that level, but he is 100% worth his current contract as a #3 d-man, and if he was getting 21.5 minutes instead of 23, he may be a bit more comfortable. He absolutely should not be traded as his value as a solid #3 for 3.1 is very reasonable especially for three years after this one.

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Old
12-09-2009, 11:33 AM
  #57
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But I'm not ready to agree with several who seem to believe his upside is defined by his current weaknesses. I think he will continue to improve and eventually turn into a very solid defenseman, probably a #2 but he still has upside beyond that as a 22 year old.
Im not sure he will even keep his current weakness I just cant pin it on why he has those weaknesses. Is it his mental makeup or something else? I really have been expecting him to bulk up some in the offseason but he hasnt seemed to be doing so. Pavs looks much stronger this year than last but Vlasic seems to be about the same size as he came into the league. I just think it will help his confidence some.

It could still simply be his age. Hes still pretty young and doesnt seem to carry the cockiness of some of the younger effective D men in the league which in all honesty I think hurts him. He needs to garner an attitude. I think having Blake around him will help that aspect but something needs to click in his mind.

In the end hes still pretty effective and thats all that really matters at this point.

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Old
12-09-2009, 05:00 PM
  #58
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Tim Gleason would be good.

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Old
12-09-2009, 05:10 PM
  #59
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well personally id like to have it all in the dman the sharks trade for...I think that is Ryan Suter but he is highly valued in Nashville but they also desperatly need scoring; 30 less goals then the sharks...some might castrate me for this proposal but I think it makes alot of sense

Suter
Hornqvist
Franson

for
Vlasic
Setoguchi
Zalewski/Vesce/Joslin

Its kind of hard to value who would be the final player for the Sharks, I would be curious to get some Nash fans opinion on this trade cause they might not even do it but essentially
Suter replaces Vlasic while providing more offence and physical presence
Hornqvist replaces Seto,he is projected as a 2nd line RW,he is no Seto but he would help solve some cap issues next year as well
Franson fills our top 6 and replaces Blake next year, this kid is very very good

Ive just been thinking about it and players like Clowe do not come around as often as guys like Vlasic and Seto, Gooch bleeds offense but hes been falling off completly on D, he cost us the game against Calgary plus we are already stacked with players with excelent shots
Decent deal to ponder, and almost salary for salary but gives us a big body in the back;
from the Leafs;
Exelby and White (also gives us a solid 3rd/4th liner in White as he plays both front and back.)

to the Leafs;
Zalewski/Vesce/Huskins

Thus we still hold on to and develop the likes of Demers, Petrecki and Joslin. (i'd still like to see Moore though get his chance sometime soon).

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Old
12-09-2009, 05:19 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Vlasic hesitates and does succumb to pressure. Check the last game/goal of the Dallas series. Check last year's Anaheim series. Check Calgary two and a half years ago. He maintains position, and hesitates to jump and gain that leverage when the puck is bobbled. His numbers at behindthenet last year showed that his presence on the PP was like throwing cold water on the group (same for Cheech; Seto would light fires as did Ehrhoff). By eyeball, he misses wide in close when he pinches more than Ehrhoff did. His strength is his stick, but that is not enough. Lidstrom is the model for defense for someone of Vlasic's size and Lidstrom engages the offensive player far more than Vlasic. Vlasic improved his shotblocking last year but that was an abysmal number the year before.

For all the praise that Vlasic/Blake got for their defense, they did it for a short window of time. Do you know who was the top defensive guy on PK last year? It is showing now in who is selected to engage top units. I was shocked by the answer last year (it definitely wasn't Ehrhoff). I will give another part of that answer, Murray was the worst by the numbers of the regulars.
The last goal of the Dallas series was do to Murray not protecting the passing lane not Vlasic.

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12-09-2009, 05:34 PM
  #61
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The last goal of the Dallas series was do to Murray not protecting the passing lane not Vlasic.
That is true. However, Vlasic was way out of position. The Sharks left 2 Stars just stand in front of the net.

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Old
12-09-2009, 06:31 PM
  #62
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The last goal of the Dallas series was do to Murray not protecting the passing lane not Vlasic.
Murray had to cover two. Check Vlasic not jumping on the dump in and Marleau and Pavs (especially Pavs) getting screwed up on the crossover. Murray had the least fault and most impossible task. Most screwed up play of the series.

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Old
12-10-2009, 08:36 AM
  #63
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Rivet is what we need!

Craig Rivet had 35 points, over 100PIMs, played over 22 minutes a game and wore a letter for us, for only 3.5 million a year!!?? We now are stuck with Blake. Another crappy move by DW. Even Matt Carle is playing well. Boyle is great, but it came at the cost of Rivet, Carle and later Erhoff (due to salary)

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12-10-2009, 10:44 AM
  #64
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Craig Rivet had 35 points, over 100PIMs, played over 22 minutes a game and wore a letter for us, for only 3.5 million a year!!?? We now are stuck with Blake. Another crappy move by DW. Even Matt Carle is playing well. Boyle is great, but it came at the cost of Rivet, Carle and later Erhoff (due to salary)
Blake has looked pretty awful since coming back from injury. Let's even add the likes of Seto in there. He has looked pretty horrible. Maybe not ready to be put back on the second line yet. Should probably be back with Mitchel and getting into game shape some more and, moving Manny back up to the second. He looked pretty good up front with Pavs and Clowe. Manny scored a beauty last night, as did Pavs. Awesome shots.

I still can't see how Joslin has outplayed Demers back there.

When Murray isn't hitting from the back, nobody else is. I'm going to keep pushing for Moore to get a chance. He's looked pretty strong in Worchester, from the games i've seen myself, which has been around half their season so far.

On Rivet, yes a salary dump but, a terrible move. Should have looked elsewhere to do so. Carbon copy move for D.W. with the Ehrhoff move. Terrible moves.

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12-10-2009, 02:16 PM
  #65
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I think Demers is going to have to come back up just so someone can get something going on pp2.

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12-10-2009, 03:32 PM
  #66
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Blake has looked pretty awful since coming back from injury. Let's even add the likes of Seto in there. He has looked pretty horrible. Maybe not ready to be put back on the second line yet. Should probably be back with Mitchel and getting into game shape some more and, moving Manny back up to the second. He looked pretty good up front with Pavs and Clowe. Manny scored a beauty last night, as did Pavs. Awesome shots.

I still can't see how Joslin has outplayed Demers back there.

When Murray isn't hitting from the back, nobody else is. I'm going to keep pushing for Moore to get a chance. He's looked pretty strong in Worchester, from the games i've seen myself, which has been around half their season so far.

On Rivet, yes a salary dump but, a terrible move. Should have looked elsewhere to do so. Carbon copy move for D.W. with the Ehrhoff move. Terrible moves.
The sad thing is that we got 2 2nd round picks for Rivet. That's not too bad, and 2nd rounders are valuable for the Sharks who draft surprisingly well there. Out of 14 2nd-4th round picks the Sharks have had since 2003 (not including '09), only 6 have busted so far. Basically, we got a decent NHL'er out of Rivet. For Ehrhoff, we got even less. That's just absurd. The difference between Rivet and Ehrhoff (in favor of Ehrhoff IMO) is far greater than the Lukowich salary dump. I guess other teams are wising up to the value of picks though in the cap era. I know how people say 1st and 2nd round picks are overvalued on HF, but if you have good scouts, they're just as valuable as a decent 2nd line forward.

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12-10-2009, 04:38 PM
  #67
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The sad thing is that we got 2 2nd round picks for Rivet. That's not too bad, and 2nd rounders are valuable for the Sharks who draft surprisingly well there. Out of 14 2nd-4th round picks the Sharks have had since 2003 (not including '09), only 6 have busted so far. Basically, we got a decent NHL'er out of Rivet. For Ehrhoff, we got even less. That's just absurd. The difference between Rivet and Ehrhoff (in favor of Ehrhoff IMO) is far greater than the Lukowich salary dump. I guess other teams are wising up to the value of picks though in the cap era. I know how people say 1st and 2nd round picks are overvalued on HF, but if you have good scouts, they're just as valuable as a decent 2nd line forward.
Rivet loved this team, was a warrior, had a good contract, and would be exactly what this team needs right now. I said at the time this was a terrible deal, and I still think it was. Blake isn't worth it (he is no better than Rivet this year in any category, and Rivet is younger and stronger).

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Old
12-11-2009, 01:29 PM
  #68
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All the dmen this year have been very good at keeping the cycle to the outside and limiting scoring chances, hence the absurdly good PK. They are almost always getting burned in transition or by terrible winger coverage on the pointmen and others in the high slot. ...
Ding ding ding. This is what I've noticed. There is less skill on the blueline this year and correspondingly less salary allocated to them. Not to totally excuse the dmen, but the forwards need to step it up defensively. We won't make it far in the playoffs if they don't tighten up defensively.

At least the communication is getting better. I couldn't believe the glaring communication problems in the beginning of the season.

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12-11-2009, 03:02 PM
  #69
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Rivet loved this team, was a warrior, had a good contract, and would be exactly what this team needs right now. I said at the time this was a terrible deal, and I still think it was. Blake isn't worth it (he is no better than Rivet this year in any category, and Rivet is younger and stronger).
Yeah it just made zero sense that rivet was the first one to be cut for cap space...I don't like the ehrhoff cap cutting either but i'd rather have him than rivet cut.

boyle-murray - murray is beastly like usual and has fit into the role of "shutdown" guy instead of the guy who can just basically hit.

vlasic-rivet- not as much offense here, but we never really got to see rivet in a more offense first role i'm sure he'd provide nearly as much as blake if not more as blake ages... The difference here is blake always takes those stupid hooking/tripping/interference calls even though he doesn't really hit, and rivet doesn't allow so many breakaways all of the time because he's got more speed, and blake is a big lug like semenov was and basically stands in front of the net in our zone like a pylon. Vlasic isn't tough enough to be the guy that has to be the only one battling for the puck along the boards. Rivet was a warrior and he would have helped our puck possession style a ton.

we still would have had to give up ehrhoff and maybe luko although i'd rather keep him over huskins if that was possible...

So we don't need a beefy dman, rivet wasn't beefy, it's about the size of the fight in the dog not the size of the dog in the fight. Vlasic needs to grow some balls to the point of rivet, blake needs to find the fountain of youth, and luko needs to find his way back over here-they can put huskins in their minor system lol.

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12-11-2009, 03:09 PM
  #70
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..I don't like the ehrhoff cap cutting either but i'd rather have him than rivet cut.
meh on that one

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Old
12-11-2009, 05:37 PM
  #71
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Consensus on these boards last year AFTER seeing Blake play was Blake>Rivet. So DW gets the nod for a correct assessment. Blake gets hurt, plays like crap in the playoffs ALONG with the rest of the team. So they lost their opportunity that year. It's over now. Please stop with the revisionism.

The valid discussion, because we are still only 32 games into the season, is Ehrhoff vs Blake. DW is not looking good in this one, but the season is young.

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12-11-2009, 06:07 PM
  #72
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Consensus on these boards last year AFTER seeing Blake play was Blake>Rivet. So DW gets the nod for a correct assessment. Blake gets hurt, plays like crap in the playoffs ALONG with the rest of the team. So they lost their opportunity that year. It's over now. Please stop with the revisionism.

The valid discussion, because we are still only 32 games into the season, is Ehrhoff vs Blake. DW is not looking good in this one, but the season is young.
Yes was Blake > Rivet

This year

Rivet > Blake

Plus, Rivet was 1.5m LESS than Blake. 1.5m that we could have spent on depth, or a half decent bottom 6. Worst case we are better off now, and no worse than we were last season.

I don't think Blake has done anything significant for this team. Rivet showed a ton more heart and leadership on the ice and I think that would be more valuable.

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12-11-2009, 06:30 PM
  #73
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Yes was Blake > Rivet

This year

Rivet > Blake

Plus, Rivet was 1.5m LESS than Blake. 1.5m that we could have spent on depth, or a half decent bottom 6. Worst case we are better off now, and no worse than we were last season.

I don't think Blake has done anything significant for this team. Rivet showed a ton more heart and leadership on the ice and I think that would be more valuable.
??? So which is it? You start with agreeing Blake > Rivet last year, but then contradict yourself. Anything else is a pointless hindsight discussion I want no part of. You guys can carry on, but it's annoying when history starts getting rewritten.

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12-11-2009, 07:26 PM
  #74
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??? So which is it? You start with agreeing Blake > Rivet last year, but then contradict yourself. Anything else is a pointless hindsight discussion I want no part of. You guys can carry on, but it's annoying when history starts getting rewritten.
I'm confused where did I contridict myself?

Skill wise Blake was better than Rivet last year. For 1.5m less and the intagibles though I at the time and still would choose Rivet. When you factor in that we did not in fact with the cup last year and we now have a player who is on the downturn of his career, Rivet was the better bet and smarter choice.

If you don't like discussions, uhm, don't join discussion boards? I think predicting the future is a lot more futile than analyzing the past personally.

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12-11-2009, 08:26 PM
  #75
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Blake was far superior to Rivet last year. I doubt anyone would argue with that. This year, not so much, but Blake vs. Rivet already happened, and Blake did prove himself (somewhat). On the other hand, Blake vs. Ehrhoff just happened, and was clearly the wrong decision (in hindsight admittedly), especially when you consider the return we got for Ehrhoff. (Basically a 2nd round pick in a supposedly weak draft.)

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