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Old
12-08-2009, 06:44 AM
  #1
tilson23
 
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VAN-DET and VAN-PHX

Hopefully I don't get crucified too badly here. My first post on the hfboards and I thought I'd make a couple proposals to strengthen the Canucks this year as well as (mostly) in the future. Here's to everything being done properly.

Firstly:

To VAN:

Martin Hanzal
2nd RDer 2010

To PHX:

Pavol Demitra (Conditional pick if resigns next year)
Shane O'Brien
Kyle Wellwood


Why the Canucks do this: We gain a Ryan Kesler type player (with a bigger frame) in Martin Hanzal. He's 6'6" and plays on the Coyotes checking line, consistently being matched with the other teams top lines. While not lighting up the offensive radar his stats are similar to Kesler's when he first entered the NHL, and he has potential to be a 20+/20+ player with great defensive awareness. We also gain back a 2nd RDer in 2010 that we do not have. We lose Wellwood and O'Brien which is not horrible by any means. Demitra will affect our scoring in the later part of the season (when he returns), but possible deadline moves could remedy that.

Why the Coyotoes do this: They lose a very good prospect in Martin Hanzal, but also possess an excellent prospect pool full of forwards that are close to cracking the NHL given the chance. What they are missing is the top 6 scoring punch that Demitra will afford them in the later end of the season as well as the (possible) postseason. This is one of the rare years the Coyotes could be buyers. O'Brien adds grit to their D-Core and Wellwood gives them the possibility of extra scoring presence if he lives up to his potential.

Secondly:

To VAN:

Jakub Kindl

To DET:

Cory Schneider

Why this happens: This is basically an exchange of the two top prospects in both teams systems. Vancouver gets a D-Prospect they will need for the future (with Mitchell and Salo both UFAs) and Detroit gets a possible starting goalie that they seem to need. Detroit is strong enough defensively as is to be able to lose Kindl and Vancouver has Luongo locked up long term so Schneider will not get utilized.


Sedin-Sedin-Sammy
Raymond-Kesler-Grabner
Burrows-Hanzal-Bernier
Glass-Johnson-Hansen
(Rypien/Hordi)

Edler-Ehrhoff
Mitchell-Bieksa
Schneider-Salo
(Rome)

Luongo
Raycroft



Would be interested in hearing your thoughts and any way you would tweak these around.

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12-08-2009, 06:51 AM
  #2
Fedz
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I'm a Canucks fan first and foremost but going to school in Arizona has allowed me to follow the Coyotes quite closely this year and this trade does absolutely nothing for their organization.

Not only do they give up a 2nd rounder, they give up a young promising centerman that is under 23 and not only that shuts down some of the top forwards in the Pacific Division. Hell, just ask Anze Kopitar how he's enjoyed playing against Phoenix this year.

It's not that bad, but the Coyotes don't do this deal.

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12-08-2009, 06:57 AM
  #3
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Do you feel the Coyotes would need more immediate talent out of the deal? I feel their top 6 (even though they're doing well) is one of their weaknesses and that Demitra would help them there. Would they need an upgrade over O'Brien, to say, Bieksa?

To Van:
Hanzal
2nd RDer

To Phx:
Demitra (Conditional if re-signs)
Bieksa
Wellwood


Canucks could recall Lukowich (if I'm correct) to add some depth back to their D. And the 'yotes get a solid 1st-2nd pairing D-Man with offensive upside back.

Edit: I wanted to add, that this is one of the few years I can see the Coyotes becoming significant buyers at the deadline (and before) in order to make a run. If so, they need a stronger D-Core around Bryzgalov as well as a better scoring punch--two things this deal helps with. They do give up a young centerman that is a great shutdown guy, but they have quite a few others in line (maybe not for the shutdown role): Turris, Boedker, and Porter.


Last edited by tilson23: 12-08-2009 at 07:08 AM.
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Old
12-08-2009, 07:32 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tilson23 View Post
Do you feel the Coyotes would need more immediate talent out of the deal? I feel their top 6 (even though they're doing well) is one of their weaknesses and that Demitra would help them there. Would they need an upgrade over O'Brien, to say, Bieksa?

To Van:
Hanzal
2nd RDer

To Phx:
Demitra (Conditional if re-signs)
Bieksa
Wellwood


Canucks could recall Lukowich (if I'm correct) to add some depth back to their D. And the 'yotes get a solid 1st-2nd pairing D-Man with offensive upside back.

Edit: I wanted to add, that this is one of the few years I can see the Coyotes becoming significant buyers at the deadline (and before) in order to make a run. If so, they need a stronger D-Core around Bryzgalov as well as a better scoring punch--two things this deal helps with. They do give up a young centerman that is a great shutdown guy, but they have quite a few others in line (maybe not for the shutdown role): Turris, Boedker, and Porter.
I don't see the Coyotes making a run for the cup this year. Maybe fore the playoffs, but they're not going to give a ton up just to make it (Atlanta was crazy). I'd suggest maybe the same trade, but make the second round pick conditional on Demitra resigning in Phoenix? That makes more sense to me. An aging Demitra could still be a decent vet in a young room. Moving him avoids our cap issues when he comes off LTIR (basically a salary dump from us). O'Brien is definitely an asset for them I think, and Wellwood gives them a short term center to plug back in Hanzal's spot.

For the record, I haven't watched Hanzal much myself to know how good a prospect he is (or read enough about him). But based Fedz response I think this seems more reasonable.

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Old
12-08-2009, 11:07 AM
  #5
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no way Phoenix touches that deal... they don't need more bodies, they have plenty of them already... and they don't need any help on defense either.

Hanzel addresses a key position for them, both short-term and longterm... they have no reason at all to move him, especially for packages like that, that don't address any of their needs.

Demitra, at this point, is worthless... O'Brien has limited trade value, and Wellwood would likely clear waivers at this point. And I doubt that Gillis has any plans at all to deal Bieksa, which I've outlined in other posts, given what he's said so far to date, and the offers he's already turned down for Bieksa last year.

and I wouldn't touch that deal with Detroit either... the last thing I'd want to do is to give Detroit a potential answer to their goaltending - which is the only real weakness in that organization. If you're moving Schneider, move him to the East, or at least to a team that you aren't going to worry about playing in the playoffs... unless of course you're getting a stupidly great offer that is too hard to turn down. Kindl isn't it.

I'd pass on the Detroit trade, and Phoenix has no reason at all to do the other trade.

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Old
12-08-2009, 11:21 AM
  #6
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I'd like to get Lombardi from Phoenix. If anything, he should come cheaper than Hanzal

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Old
12-08-2009, 12:01 PM
  #7
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maybe timing is lining up in our favour for that long-debated Schneider-to-Philly move? (sez he who drafted Emery in the first round of the supplemental draft this year, oy...)

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Old
12-08-2009, 12:05 PM
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I don't think that second deal would work out because Detroit needs Kindl more than you know. Lidstrom and Rafalski are both getting older (Lidstrom is already rapidly regressing this year) and when they're both out of the picture, Detroit is left with Kronwall, Stuart, and Eriksson. Suddenly their depth on defense isn't that great.

They'll want to keep Kindl for sure.

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Old
12-08-2009, 01:40 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedz View Post
I'm a Canucks fan first and foremost but going to school in Arizona has allowed me to follow the Coyotes quite closely this year and this trade does absolutely nothing for their organization.

Not only do they give up a 2nd rounder, they give up a young promising centerman that is under 23 and not only that shuts down some of the top forwards in the Pacific Division. Hell, just ask Anze Kopitar how he's enjoyed playing against Phoenix this year.

It's not that bad, but the Coyotes don't do this deal.
It's bad in the sense that Demetra is oft injured and Wellwood talks like he can play the game of hockey but doesn't on the ice.

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12-08-2009, 02:00 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
and I wouldn't touch that deal with Detroit either... the last thing I'd want to do is to give Detroit a potential answer to their goaltending - which is the only real weakness in that organization. If you're moving Schneider, move him to the East, or at least to a team that you aren't going to worry about playing in the playoffs... unless of course you're getting a stupidly great offer that is too hard to turn down. Kindl isn't it.
At this point you have to really wonder what Schneider will net in a trade given the risk of goalie prospects. I wouldn't have a problem dealing Schneider for Jakub Kindl.

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Old
12-08-2009, 04:07 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
no way Phoenix touches that deal... they don't need more bodies, they have plenty of them already... and they don't need any help on defense either.

Hanzel addresses a key position for them, both short-term and longterm... they have no reason at all to move him, especially for packages like that, that don't address any of their needs.

Demitra, at this point, is worthless... O'Brien has limited trade value, and Wellwood would likely clear waivers at this point. And I doubt that Gillis has any plans at all to deal Bieksa, which I've outlined in other posts, given what he's said so far to date, and the offers he's already turned down for Bieksa last year.
I wouldn't say that Phoenix is a-ok defensively; the only reason they're doing well defensively is because Bryzgalov is playing amazing. A stronger D-Core in front of him could really push this team up the standings. Not to mention Aucoin (one of their better Dmen) is 36. I think Bieksa would help the team excellently. Bieksa last year was also more of an offensive threat than this year and I think he'd be more likely to be moved now.

The 'yotes have on of the better records in the league but have one of the lowest GF total. Demitra's offensive upside would help them substantially in that factor. Short term, Demitra helps them offensively, and long term he eventually moves aside and provides room for a prospect to step in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
and I wouldn't touch that deal with Detroit either... the last thing I'd want to do is to give Detroit a potential answer to their goaltending - which is the only real weakness in that organization. If you're moving Schneider, move him to the East, or at least to a team that you aren't going to worry about playing in the playoffs... unless of course you're getting a stupidly great offer that is too hard to turn down. Kindl isn't it.
.
At one point in life, you're going to have to trade with someone in your conference, even if it is a powerhouse team with only one weakness (goaltending). While it might not be ideal to trade to someone you meet frequently, you're limiting yourself if you trade only to the other side of the NHL. It's also tough to determine what a stupidly good offer is, as Kindl has the potential to be a #2 Dman, which is pretty good. I can envision a lot of teams wanting to see how Schneider does in the NHL before they consider him a huge asset to their organization, but I don't see him getting that time behind Lou and Raycroft. At the moment he seems to be a great prospect that hasn't really proven himself at the NHL level yet (besides one great game). Didn't Jeff Cowan pot 3 in 2 games or something?

To me this is an asset swap. We switch a goaltending asset we don't need, with a D asset we do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuxFan09 View Post
I don't think that second deal would work out because Detroit needs Kindl more than you know. Lidstrom and Rafalski are both getting older (Lidstrom is already rapidly regressing this year) and when they're both out of the picture, Detroit is left with Kronwall, Stuart, and Eriksson. Suddenly their depth on defense isn't that great.

They'll want to keep Kindl for sure.
Detroit has huge depth at defense:

Nicklas Lidstrom
Brian Rafalski
Niklas Kronwall
Brad Stuart
Jonathan Ericsson
Andreas Lilja
Brett Lebda
Derek Meech
Doug Janik
Jakub Kindl
Brendan Smith

That doesn't even include the fact that without Rafalski or Lidstrom's large contracts (approx. 13.5 mil) on the books they could easily grab a high end defensive free-agent (or two).

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12-08-2009, 04:13 PM
  #12
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I don't know the players coming back our way but Canucks don't lose anybody they really need so no downside in this except that Wellwood is a center.

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12-08-2009, 04:17 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by Outside99 View Post
I don't know the players coming back our way but Canucks don't lose anybody they really need so no downside in this except that Wellwood is a center.
So is Hanzal, so that part is covered.

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Old
12-08-2009, 04:38 PM
  #14
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It's obviously incredibly easy to criticize a trade proposal, given how many are proposed when compared to how many actually happen.

With that being said I like the way you think with this, because like you I agree that we need a new third line pivot and I'm a big Hanzal fan myself.

I also agree that we should look to move Schneider for a good (in theory equal) defensive prospect.

With that being said, sweetening the pot to land Hanzal is tough to do with Demitra. I think what's happened here is that because Strachan said the Rangers want Demitra we can all come up with trade scenarios surrounding him without much worry.

But many have pointed out that Gillis respects Demitra and his wishes (presumably). Why would Demitra want to go to Phoenix? Possibly if Grabner comes back from his injury and is clearly outplaying Demitra to the point where AV has Demitra in a role not suited to him then this debate is a moot point, but as of now it's hard to see Demitra going to Phoenix. That doesn't mean Gillis won't try, but it just seems less likely to me that's all.

If I'm a Coyotes fan I would want Raymond, that would at least offset the salary and potential of the two players better in my opinion. I also really dislike the idea of sending Bieksa there in this, so why not swap out Bieksa and put in Raymond while also removing the second rounder?

Demitra
Raymond

Hanzal

To be honest I'm not sure if I do this trade, but it seems more realistic anyways.

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Old
12-08-2009, 04:41 PM
  #15
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Frankly, I think we'd be very lucky if we could get a very late 1st rounder pick for Schneider. A more realistic goal would be a 2nd round pick. Just don't think goalie prospects have alot of value - reason why I generally don't like picking a goalie in the first round ("best player available" or not).

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12-08-2009, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Frankly, I think we'd be very lucky if we could get a very late 1st rounder pick for Schneider. A more realistic goal would be a 2nd round pick. Just don't think goalie prospects have alot of value - reason why I generally don't like picking a goalie in the first round ("best player available" or not).
No question about it. I would actually think that dealing with Schneider is a growing priority for Gillis every day. Schneider had a pretty good game this year but by every indication it might very well be his last given there are two healthy guys ahead of him.

But yes, his value is a second round pick right now though the opportunity to increase his value is there as soon as he can get some starts somewhere and somehow.

EDIT:

Also, I forgot about this but believe it or not Schneider was the fourth goalie chosen that year in the first round. Pretty incredible when you think about it.

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12-08-2009, 04:50 PM
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I agree with both of you on Schneider's current value. Which is why, I believe that trading to a team such as Detroit who is in need of a goalie (or goalie prospect), would net us a slightly better return. Rather than a Low 2nd RDer, we could get Kindl (a former 1st RDer).

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12-08-2009, 04:54 PM
  #18
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Originally Posted by tilson23 View Post
I agree with both of you on Schneider's current value. Which is why, I believe that trading to a team such as Detroit who is in need of a goalie (or goalie prospect), would net us a slightly better return. Rather than a Low 2nd RDer, we could get Kindl (a former 1st RDer).
Either that, or what might work out best is using Schneider on a deadline rental. Without researching potential names, generally speaking I would think a GM might trade an upcoming UFA rental for a player like Schneider simply because the value of the asset they are giving up is low because he's almost useless to a team out of the playoff hunt.

I'm not advocating the Canucks do this mind you, but it may simply be the best way to get value out of Schneider.

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12-08-2009, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by tilson23 View Post


Detroit has huge depth at defense:

Nicklas Lidstrom
Brian Rafalski
Niklas Kronwall
Brad Stuart
Jonathan Ericsson
Andreas Lilja
Brett Lebda
Derek Meech
Doug Janik
Jakub Kindl
Brendan Smith

That doesn't even include the fact that without Rafalski or Lidstrom's large contracts (approx. 13.5 mil) on the books they could easily grab a high end defensive free-agent (or two).
Now tell me which one of those players is able to fill in for 2 of the best D-men in the league when they're gone? It sure won't be Brett Lebda, Lilja, or Doug Janik. They can't even fill in for an NHL role capably.

The future of Detroit's D rests on 3 guys, Kronwall, Ericsson and Kindl, none of 3 will be moved.

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12-08-2009, 06:32 PM
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Now tell me which one of those players is able to fill in for 2 of the best D-men in the league when they're gone? It sure won't be Brett Lebda, Lilja, or Doug Janik. They can't even fill in for an NHL role capably.

The future of Detroit's D rests on 3 guys, Kronwall, Ericsson and Kindl, none of 3 will be moved.
Who would ever be able to fill in for Lidstrom at this moment? That's like asking New Jersey who will place Brodeur. They can only hope to do as well as they can. Kindl isn't ready to replace Lidstrom or Rafalski yet, either.

Currently (if Lidstrom and Rafalski were to leave) they would have:

Kronwall-?
Stuart-Ericsson
Lebda-Lilja

Now, imagine if Detroit were to pick up a free agent or trade with a team that has cap problems? Say Chicago...

Imagine them grabbing Campbell (similar cap hit to Lidstrom) or Barker?

Kronwall-Campbell/Barker
Stuart-Ericsson
Lebda-Lilja

Find a decent 7th Dman for cheap as well. That's still a D-Core that is very good and Schneider may very well solve any goaltending issues they may have.

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12-08-2009, 06:44 PM
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Who would ever be able to fill in for Lidstrom at this moment? That's like asking New Jersey who will place Brodeur. They can only hope to do as well as they can. Kindl isn't ready to replace Lidstrom or Rafalski yet, either.

Currently (if Lidstrom and Rafalski were to leave) they would have:

Kronwall-?
Stuart-Ericsson
Lebda-Lilja

Now, imagine if Detroit were to pick up a free agent or trade with a team that has cap problems? Say Chicago...

Imagine them grabbing Campbell (similar cap hit to Lidstrom) or Barker?

Kronwall-Campbell/Barker
Stuart-Ericsson
Lebda-Lilja

Find a decent 7th Dman for cheap as well. That's still a D-Core that is very good and Schneider may very well solve any goaltending issues they may have.
You are in la-la land if you think Brian Campbell can be a #2 D-man on a team like Detroit, his contract is absurd for a D-man that can fill in fine for Top 4-duty, but nothing more. To trade for him is a huge mistake. Detroit is a team that honours their players, doesn't pay FA pickups more then their core players, and doesn't go for bloated contracts. To replace Lidstrom's 7M with Brian Campbell would be idiotic to say the least.

Lebda is having a difficult time playing limited minutes on Detroit this season, Lilja is likely to not play in the NHL again with his post-concussion syndrome, Meech and Janik are not NHL defensemen. For a team that has "huge depth", I don't see any at all. Detroit will promote players from their system (Ericsson and Kindl) into bigger roles, and maybe make a few smart FA pickups.

Kindl isn't ready to replace them yet, but they're not ready to retire yet. I believe Lidstrom and Rafalski will ATLEAST play out the end of the 2010-2011 season, and by then Kindl will be a Top-4 guy.

Detroit will not be trading their young defensemen.

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12-08-2009, 07:13 PM
  #22
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You are in la-la land if you think Brian Campbell can be a #2 D-man on a team like Detroit, his contract is absurd for a D-man that can fill in fine for Top 4-duty, but nothing more. To trade for him is a huge mistake. Detroit is a team that honours their players, doesn't pay FA pickups more then their core players, and doesn't go for bloated contracts. To replace Lidstrom's 7M with Brian Campbell would be idiotic to say the least.

Lebda is having a difficult time playing limited minutes on Detroit this season, Lilja is likely to not play in the NHL again with his post-concussion syndrome, Meech and Janik are not NHL defensemen. For a team that has "huge depth", I don't see any at all. Detroit will promote players from their system (Ericsson and Kindl) into bigger roles, and maybe make a few smart FA pickups.

Kindl isn't ready to replace them yet, but they're not ready to retire yet. I believe Lidstrom and Rafalski will ATLEAST play out the end of the 2010-2011 season, and by then Kindl will be a Top-4 guy.

Detroit will not be trading their young defensemen.
You only approached the topic from the Brian Campbell perspective. What about the Cam Barker angle? I think that their whole future does not rest on Jakub Kindl alone and that they would rather have a NHL starter goalie prospect in their system. But, I could be completely wrong.

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12-08-2009, 07:19 PM
  #23
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You only approached the topic from the Brian Campbell perspective. What about the Cam Barker angle? I think that their whole future does not rest on Jakub Kindl alone and that they would rather have a NHL starter goalie prospect in their system. But, I could be completely wrong.
The Wings have been patient with Howard, and Larson and McCollum looks to have some good potential as well. I can't see them acquiring another goalie prospect, they have faith in Osgood despite his horrid play lately, and if they DO acquire a goalie it's not going to be another prospect, it'll be someone that is proven.

Barker would be an interesting idea, but his contract is quite large and I don't see many pieces Detroit can move for him that would send cap back. If Chicago moves Barker/Versteeg/Sopel it's for tagging room for next season.

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12-08-2009, 07:21 PM
  #24
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Schneider + pick for JVR

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12-08-2009, 07:23 PM
  #25
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Maybe then, I am approaching the idea of a Dman completely wrong and should ignore Detroit completely. If I had to guess the next likely destination would be Philly.

What would the chances of a Schneider + Pick/Prospect for Braydon Coburn? I assume that Philly is in cap trouble (if not now, then shortly) and that their D-Core is strong with Carle, Timmonen, and Pronger. Isn't Coburn due for a raise?

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