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The Great Martin Brodeur Debate

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Old
12-09-2009, 04:27 PM
  #51
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"If he could leave that record alone, that would be nice," he said. "Let us lowly guys enjoy some time in the spotlight."

LMAO, I've always respected Boucher.

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12-09-2009, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic View Post
Those are all just unrealistic records. Teams didn't have back ups, there wasn't goal scorers in Hainsworth's day like there are today. Those will 100% never be touched. Even Hall's 15 in a season is next to impossible.
Not to mention Hainsworth record came before the forward pass was legalized.

Imagine what Marty's numbers would be if the only passes a team could make were backwards like in rugby. You can't compare stats from back then because it was literally a completely different game.

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12-09-2009, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeItVeryMuch View Post
Everytime Salz posts I will post one of the 400 great Brodeur saves on youtube.


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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
there's no such thing as a "vezina nomination", and any fan that brings that up as a positive about their player is a fool. the voting is already known when the players "are nominated". if you finish third with 13 votes and the other two guys have 100+, that's not a nomination. that's a free trip to Vegas.
Wait, are you suggesting that the great Henrik Lundqvist does not have a trophy case full of awards and honors he has received? Shirley you can't be serious.

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12-09-2009, 04:51 PM
  #54
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It's the Toronto Sun...

Which isn't a real newspaper as its articles only require an IQ over 30 to understand.

Buying into the "Brodeur's a Fraud" ******** is more ridiculous than writing an article like that in the first place.

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12-09-2009, 04:59 PM
  #55
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You know, people are always going to be in an uproar when it comes to Marty and especially when you consider he's NOT on their team. Obviously that's not solely the reason, but you could bet your ass if he was on the Habs he'd have a ****ing monument the size of the statue of liberty.

As with any sport there is an air of pomposity among fans, especially when it comes to great players that are on other organizations. Then when you consider in this instance how so many ignorant sheep believe NJ is the SOLE reason for the lockout and scoring going down, it only further plays into the animosity.

Meanwhile Detroit receives a **** ton of credit from people all over the league and if anyone watched them win their last cup, it wasn't vastly different than what NJ did for years. But oh it's the "high powered, high flying Red Wings!!"

It's all moot. Did Marty benefit from the system? Absolutely. But alternatively, did the system benefit from Marty? Same answer, absolutely. His ability to play intelligent hockey, play the puck extremely well and manage the flow of the game when the puck ends up near him is partly what made him so great and ultimately what made our system work incredibly for years.

That's something a lot of people fail to acknowledge. He was as big a part of its success as it was his.

But is it the sole reason for his success? You've gotta be an idiot to think that. His athletic ability in and of itself answers that question. The guy has made more incredible saves alone (even facing 3 shots every month like people claim) than any goaltender in his generation and the one just prior. You could probably fill a 30 minute+ highlight video of the saves he's made throughout his career up to this point.

People will always talk and undermine it, but so what? We're not talking about a juicer in baseball, a fighter with plaster on his wraps, corked bats, over-sized equipement () or simply people throwing games. People are just sour grapes because of where he plays and the things they attribute to our organization. It's envy at best, stupidity at worst. End of discussion.

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12-09-2009, 05:12 PM
  #56
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The real system in NJ is teamwork. Marty buys into it same as every other player on the Devils. Thats the reason why they win so many games. It's all about the team. That doesn't detract from the fact that Marty still would have done just as well on any NHL team, it's who he is.

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12-09-2009, 05:13 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrdevil View Post




Wait, are you suggesting that the great Henrik Lundqvist does not have a trophy case full of awards and honors he has received? Shirley you can't be serious.
no he has these on his key chain though:


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12-09-2009, 05:20 PM
  #58
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I'm not even sure where I rank Brodeur, to be honest.

My #1 is Hasek.

The next 4 guys can be placed in really any order and you really couldn't go wrong with however you did it:

Brodeur, Roy, Sawchuk, and Plante for me. Hall would be #6.

After that, probably another 5 that can go in any order including:

Durnan, Tretiak, Esposito, Dryden, and Hainsworth.

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12-09-2009, 05:59 PM
  #59
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I'm sorry but if anyone believes Brodeur did not benefit from the Devils' defensive system/acumen over his career then they're just biased. The Devils limit quality shots more than the vast majority of other teams (EDIT: I would to add that this is proven by NHL shot chart data). As a result Brodeur's numbers will look better, that's plain as day and should not be contested. Hasek's prime is better than Brodeur's, however Marty has had the longer and more consistent career.

I'm a Devils fan who's willing to accept common sense. I wish most of you did the same. Just look at what Clemmensen did last year.


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12-09-2009, 06:06 PM
  #60
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And I think some of you should read the entire article before mindlessly bashing.

Quote:
If we dig a little deeper, we find that between the ages of 33 and 37, Martin Brodeur has a save percentage of .935 in games where he's had to face 30+ shots on goal. Fifteen points higher than his average in that same time when we account for ALL of his games played. That's some pretty clutch production for a goalie in the twilight of his career not deemed clutch at any point in his 17 years by a growing number of fans. Fans that see him as merely a prop, or a cog, in a very vital but systematic machine.

That component cannot be discounted. Not in Brodeur's case, nor in the case of any player's career we analyze. Context is everything. But considering the number of career starts, seasons, wins, shutouts, trophies and accolades attached to Martin Brodeur, the sentiment that he's not deserving of his status as one of the best, ever, has officially begun to put me off.

I used to agree, but now I'm not so sure. Longevity, durability, consistency - it all matters when one weighs the contributions another has or hasn't made to the game. I know Corey Schwab had some seriously sick numbers as a back-up for the New Jersey Devils in his day - proof to many that Brodeur is a fraud - I get that. But do we really think Mr. Schwab could have done it for 17 years? Not once posting a losing record? Not once letting his goals against average slip above 2.57? Posting 103 shutouts in the process?

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12-09-2009, 06:07 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Big#D View Post
All that article did for me is reinforce my long-held belief that SV% is to bad teams what GAA is to good teams. Goalies on bad teams get a higher SV% than would otherwise be expected because they face more shots per game on average. Similarly, goalies on good teams will have a better GAA because they face fewer shots and the team lets in less goals on average.

Stats can be manipulated to prove any point needed. To judge a goalie, you have to watch him play.
Someone posted this in the main board thread about the shutout record, that yet again devolved into stats freaks criticiziing Brodeur:

http://www.puckprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=351

It's about how save% is unreliable, because different arenas have different concepts of what count as shots. Of course it didn't fit with the "Brodeur is a Fraud" guy's agenda, so he dismissed it out of hand.

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12-09-2009, 06:09 PM
  #62
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This is what I put into the main board thread:

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I'm done arguing with people over who's the best goalie to ever play the game, I get caught up and have to remind myself of the futility of it. I know, myself, that I have nowhere near enough experience watching Roy or Hasek, and going back, Plante, Sawchuk, Hall, or any of the other great goalies who have played the game to say that any one of them is better than the other. Teams, systems, characteristics of the era, all of these change, and change to such an extent that it is impossible to prove who was the greatest. Even to attempt to call someone the greatest implies a sense of value, and that value is objective. Ultimately, trying to prove statistically whether one is greater than another robs the goaltending position of a portion of it's spirit. Numbers are only a small part.

I know every time I watch Marty make a fantastic save or steal a game, I'm watching a man who will go down in the books with the names of the greatest of all time, deservedly so, and I am grateful. Tonight he tied another amazing goalie in the record books, and that shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is an exceptional athlete. If people want to cover their ears, shut their eyes, and scream at the top of their lungs, that's fine. You are depriving yourself of watching a fantastic athlete play the game he loves, at one of the most challenging positions to play in all of sports. I have never claimed Marty is the best, nor will I ever. I do know, however, that he belongs with Roy, Hasek, Hall, Plante, and Sawchuk in the annals of goalie history.

Thanks Marty. Patiently waiting for 104.
Of course people are always going to argue about who is best, and who ranks where, but I think it's ALL moot. Rule changes, systems, different styles, all of them make this argument futile, because ultimately there is no stat or stats that can tell you definitively the entire story. You need to watch the goalie play, and ultimately that becomes objective.

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12-09-2009, 06:10 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Someone posted this in the main board thread about the shutout record, that yet again devolved into stats freaks criticiziing Brodeur:

http://www.puckprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=351

It's about how save% is unreliable, because different arenas have different concepts of what count as shots. Of course it didn't fit with the "Brodeur is a Fraud" guy's agenda, so he dismissed it out of hand.
That's not the point.

The convincing argument is that the Devils limit the QUALITY of shots that Brodeur faces.

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12-09-2009, 06:11 PM
  #64
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PS.

Does anyone else find it ridiculous on the main board when people my age (20s) rate people like Sawchuck, Plante, Dryden over Marty when I can guarantee none of them have seen them play a live game in their life. Most instances, the goalies died before the posters were even born. How could you rate a goalie who youve never seen live better then Marty, a person you see live atleast twice a year for the last 15 some odd years?
Eh, it's no more ridiculous than simply proclaiming< "Marty (or Roy or Hasek) is the best of all time!" without even considering the careers of goaltending who came before them.

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12-09-2009, 06:14 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
I'm sorry but if anyone believes Brodeur did not benefit from the Devils' defensive system/acumen over his career then they're just biased. The Devils limit quality shots more than the vast majority of other teams. As a result Brodeur's numbers will look better, that's plain as day and should not be contested. Hasek's prime is better than Brodeur's, however Marty has had the longer and more consistent career.

I'm a Devils fan who's willing to accept common sense. I wish most of you did the same. Just look at what Clemmensen did last year.
Yeah, look at what Clemmer did last year. He received goal support that Marty hadn't had the benefit of in quite some time. Only a fool would argue that we were the same team with Clemmer in net. We gave him the support, paid more attention to detail, chipped pucks out, etc Our security blanket was gone. Once the book was out that his glove was in Lundqvist territory teams exposed it.

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12-09-2009, 06:16 PM
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That's not the point.

The convincing argument is that the Devils limit the QUALITY of shots that Brodeur faces.
I'd say the fact that Brodeur's career save % is estimated to rise from .914 to .918 if shot totals from arenas were equalized is pretty important, and has nothing to do with the great defense Brodeur play(ed) behind.

And that's even before you take into account the effects of Marty's puckhandling and rebound control in reducing shots against. On the history of hockey board, someone compared Brodeur to his backups, and calculated that he personally reduced shots against per game by just under 2 - but this was without accounting for the fact that his backups generally faced easier competition, so the number is surely higher.

For the record, I don't consider Marty the best goalie ever... just yet (he needs a couple more Vezinas or a Cup/Smythe to be up there with Roy and Hasek), but that doesn't mean Save % isn't flawed as a stat.

But save% needs to be taken with a big grain of salt. And not surprisingly, Nashville and Florida are two places that appear to greatly inflate the number of shots in home games.

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12-09-2009, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrodeursCups View Post
Yeah, look at what Clemmer did last year. He received goal support that Marty hadn't had the benefit of in quite some time. Only a fool would argue that we were the same team with Clemmer in net. We gave him the support, paid more attention to detail, chipped pucks out, etc Our security blanket was gone. Once the book was out that his glove was in Lundqvist territory teams exposed it.
Um, what in the world does goal support have to do with GAA and Save %? Fact is Clemmensen outperformed Brodeur in those categories.

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12-09-2009, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
Um, what in the world does goal support have to do with GAA and Save %? Fact is Clemmensen outperformed Brodeur in those categories.
Apparently you overlooked his win-loss record.

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12-09-2009, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'd say the fact that Brodeur's career save % is estimated to rise from .914 to .918 if shot totals from arenas were equalized is pretty important, and has nothing to do with the great defense Brodeur play(ed) behind.

And that's even before you take into account the effects of Marty's puckhandling and rebound contro in reducing shots against.
That point is significant but as explained by the link is a bad argument to use against Brodeur. The more poignant one is to look at shot quality, which has a massive effect on save percentage. Since the NHL began keeping shot chart data it has been apparent that Brodeur benefits from facing very few tough shots.

And once again, can someone explain to me how career AHLer Scott Clemmensen posted better GAA/SAVE% numbers than Marty last year? Random statistical anomoly? A sample size of 40 games isn't gigantic but enough to make a convincing point, especially when you compare it to his past and recent performance.

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12-09-2009, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrodeursCups View Post
Apparently you overlooked his win-loss record.
Win/loss record is a horrific indicator of a goaltender's skill. That's like saying baseball pitchers should be judged by W/L rather than ERA, strikeouts, and walks.

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12-09-2009, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
For the record, I don't consider Marty the best goalie ever... just yet (he needs a couple more Vezinas or a Cup/Smythe to be up there with Roy and Hasek), but that doesn't mean Save % isn't flawed as a stat.

But save% needs to be taken with a big grain of salt. And not surprisingly, Nashville and Florida are two places that appear to greatly inflate the number of shots in home games.
I agree. Save percentage doesn't adjust for shot quality, which is a big reason why I think Brodeur is a bit overrated.

He is a great goaltender with unparalleled longevity and consistency, but I would hesitate to classify him as top five, even top ten of all-time.

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12-09-2009, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
That point is significant but as explained by the link is a bad argument to use against Brodeur. The more poignant one is to look at shot quality, which has a massive effect on save percentage. Since the NHL began keeping shot chart data it has been apparent that Brodeur benefits from facing very few tough shots.
Look at the empirical evidence - Brodeur's save % is much higher when he faces more shots.

Also, if "shot" data isn't standardized betwee arenas, do you really think "shot quality" is? Statistics are nice - if the data that goes into created them is standard. If it isn't, then they quickly become useless.

Quote:
And once again, can someone explain to me how career AHLer Scott Clemmensen posted better GAA/SAVE% numbers than Marty last year? Random statistical anomoly? A sample size of 40 games isn't gigantic but enough to make a convincing point, especially when you compare it to his past and recent performance.
Bad goalies have extended hot streaks. Ty Conklin looked like God for the Penguins a few years back, whe Fleury went down. Then he signed as a backup.

Jim Carey deserved his Vezina. Then his flaws were solved in the playoffs, and he was run out of the league in a couple of years.

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12-09-2009, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
Win/loss record is a horrific indicator of a goaltender's skill. That's like saying baseball pitchers should be judged by W/L rather than ERA, strikeouts, and walks.
I don't recall a post where anyone said that his wins/loss record was a good indicator of his skill. Only an idiot would think such a thing. I said he was piling up the wins because the team was playing better around him and he received a lot of goal support. That cannot be denied.

Using a 40 game sample size from Clemmer last year in an attempt to argue that any random goalie could put up good numbers in NJ and that the 1025 games Brodeur has played are irrelevant because his numbers are inflated is extremely foolish.

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12-09-2009, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
I agree. Save percentage doesn't adjust for shot quality, which is a big reason why I think Brodeur is a bit overrated.

He is a great goaltender with unparalleled longevity and consistency, but I would hesitate to classify him as top five, even top ten of all-time.
God, even the biggest Brodeur haters on the history of hockey board rank him no lower than 7-9. Most rank him 4-6 (I have him 4th, which a chance to go up depending on the last few years of his career).

Seriously, not Top 10? Name Ten goalies who you consider better.

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12-09-2009, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Look at the empirical evidence - Brodeur's save % is much higher when he faces more shots.

Also, if "shot" data isn't standardized betwee arenas, do you really think "shot quality" is?
Once again I am not discussing shot quantity.

And yes. Shot location is a fairly objective observation, unlike WHAT IS a shot. Think about it. I think a lot of people would disagree on what constitutes a hit, but very few would disagree about where the hit took place on the ice.

Quote:
Bad goalies have extended hot streaks. Ty Conklin looked like God for the Penguins a few years back, whe Fleury went down. Then he signed as a backup.

Jim Carey deserved his Vezina. Then his flaws were solved in the playoffs, and he was run out of the league in a couple of years.
Conklin has actually played very well since his time with the Penguins and showed promise early on in his career. He is a much more proven goaltender than Scott Clemmensen.

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