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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Treasure Trove of NBA Attendance Data for Comparison Purposes (Down 7.4%)

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Old
12-11-2009, 06:00 PM
  #1
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Treasure Trove of NBA Attendance Data for Comparison Purposes (Down 7.4%)

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/e...38893/18850386

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Average paid attendance is down 3.7 percent in the NBA through the first quarter of the regular season, sending gate receipts plummeting 7.4 percent,
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The hardest-hit franchise so far is the Detroit Pistons, whose net average gate receipts are down a staggering 42.8 percent year-over-year, according to the figures reported by teams to the league office. The Pistons made an average of $537,263 per game on ticket sales through their first eight home games, down from $938,833 at the same point last season. The Pistons, located in the epicenter of joblessness, have seen paid attendance slip 22 percent, to 14,821 from 18,993 in the first month of 2008-09.
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League-wide, average paid attendance through Nov. 29 was 13,187, down 3.7 percent from 13,699 at this point last season.
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Compared to full-season figures for 2008-09, the number of teams netting less than $500,000 in gate receipts per home game has grown from five to eight, with the Sixers, Kings, and Bobcats joining the Grizzlies, Timberwolves, Bucks, Pacers, and Hawks in the under-$500K club. But pricing pressure also has affected the high-revenue clubs. Compared to full-season totals from 08-09, the number of teams netting at least $1 million per home game has shrunk from 12 to seven, with the Spurs, Thunder, Rockets, Warriors, and Suns dropping out of the $1 million club.
Discuss.

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Old
12-11-2009, 06:19 PM
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Art.Vandelay
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Local reporter Brahm Resnick attended an Economic Summit here in Phoenix and provided Twitter updates. The one that caught my eye was the following:

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Key indicator: PHX losing jobs faster than Detroit. Actual jobless rate > 15 percent.
Here's a link to his Twitter page: http://twitter.com/brahmresnik

Seeing the Detroit comparison was a bit shocking. I knew things were bad here, but not quite to that level.

If you look at where people are sitting for Coyotes games, it's very apparent that the team is having a tough time selling the suites and expensive seats. They had a sale over Thanksgiving on lower level seats. Those sections are now packed, but the ones right next door are fairly empty.

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12-11-2009, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Art.Vandelay View Post
Local reporter Brahm Resnick attended an Economic Summit here in Phoenix and provided Twitter updates. The one that caught my eye was the following:



Here's a link to his Twitter page: http://twitter.com/brahmresnik

Seeing the Detroit comparison was a bit shocking. I knew things were bad here, but not quite to that level.

If you look at where people are sitting for Coyotes games, it's very apparent that the team is having a tough time selling the suites and expensive seats. They had a sale over Thanksgiving on lower level seats. Those sections are now packed, but the ones right next door are fairly empty.
It has to do with corporate ticket purchasing.

There is a large misconception among some hockey fans (not you) who are labouring under the misconception as to who buys the vast majority of lower-bowl tickets in every sports venue (it ain't the "hockey fan).

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12-11-2009, 06:49 PM
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the "hockey fan" cant afford the best tickets any more aside from the few that are well off or work just to have those tickets and nothing else. Same goes for all the big league sports.

The NBA's problem is it marketed its star players heavily, and since Jordan retired this strategy fractures the fan interest. Most stars are not likeable enough by rival fans to watch out of market games or teams without a major star. Team to team rivalries have lost importance as a result.

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12-11-2009, 06:53 PM
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I thought we had this thread last week?

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Old
12-11-2009, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
It has to do with corporate ticket purchasing.

There is a large misconception among some hockey fans (not you) who are labouring under the misconception as to who buys the vast majority of lower-bowl tickets in every sports venue (it ain't the "hockey fan).

I believe the Red Wings STH base was about 64% corporate. I know their attendance seems steady (avg announced ~19K); while the STH base is down, as I noted earlier (12K STH's vs 14K post-lockout vs 17K pre-lockout). Seeing that they won the Cup and almost repeated last year, it's hard to argue with anything other than the economy. I can't help but wonder how badly the Wings are doing however. There are a heck of a lot more promos going on with reasonably priced seats that include some food/drink, etc.


Regarding unemployment, the Michigan state average is 15% unemployed. Obviously, you'll get variation within cities and regions, as some places never recovered from the hits they took 20 yrs ago (Flint). (For the Phoenix comparison, it's not just the city but the entire state.)

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12-11-2009, 06:59 PM
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It seems a bit startling to see some of those NBA attendance figures. 5 cities averaging between 6 and 8 thousand fans a game? Do their fans get really defensive about it thinking that their relocation is pending like hockey fans would I wonder? Or is that a unique inferiority complex of hockey fans aspiring to be a major sport?

It also seems a bit surprising that the team caps in basketball and hockey are so similar. Are gate receipts a similar percentage of total revenue in basketball? I thought their tv revenues brought their league revenues and franchise values up significantly from hockey ones. But less than mlb and nfl?

It was also not surprising to read in that article:
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The disparity between high-revenue teams and low-revenue teams is one of the key issues looming with owners and players preparing for negotiations on a new collective bargaining agreement. As expected, owners have notified the players’ association that they will not extend the current agreement, which expires after the 2010-11 season.
Deja vu.

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Old
12-11-2009, 07:01 PM
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I thought we had this thread last week?
GC likes to point out that the NHL isn't nearly as badly off as some leagues. (I'll get around to reminding him that the NBA teams receive $30-40 MM from the league per team, so.......).

Then we'll probably merge this thread with the other attendance thread, or kill all of them. Who knows?



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12-11-2009, 07:05 PM
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It seems a bit startling to see some of those NBA attendance figures. 5 cities averaging between 6 and 8 thousand fans a game? Do their fans get really defensive about it thinking that their relocation is pending like hockey fans would I wonder? Or is that a unique inferiority complex of hockey fans aspiring to be a major sport?

It also seems a bit surprising that the team caps in basketball and hockey are so similar. Are gate receipts a similar percentage of total revenue in basketball? I thought their tv revenues brought their league revenues and franchise values up significantly from hockey ones. But less than mlb and nfl?

It was also not surprising to read in that article:


Deja vu.

There are several cross-over owners between the NBA and NHL. Should be interesting from a CBA perspective.

Re: revenues. The NBA was doing slightly less than the NHL in attendance, but have $900 MM coming from their national TV/media/digital rights deal; and if memory serves, another $200 MM in international merchandising revenue.

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12-11-2009, 07:07 PM
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I watched a bit of the Raptors-Bucks game the other night, and I think there must have been less than 5,000 in the building. I think the whole upper bowl was empty. Must be because it's a non-traditional market

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12-11-2009, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
It seems a bit startling to see some of those NBA attendance figures. 5 cities averaging between 6 and 8 thousand fans a game? Do their fans get really defensive about it thinking that their relocation is pending like hockey fans would I wonder? Or is that a unique inferiority complex of hockey fans aspiring to be a major sport?
I think it is more that this "unique inferiority complex" of some hockey fans manifests itself in an intense desire to denigrate each other for not being "real fans" and each other's hometowns for not being "real markets".

Strange, that.

Defensive? An odd word choice. I would consider someone being "defensive" if they act as if they are being attacked when they are not being attacked. When someone acts as if they are being attacked when in fact they ARE being attacked, I don't really think that qualifies as "defensive" in the colloquial meaning of that term in this context.

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Old
12-11-2009, 07:20 PM
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I live in an NBA market (Indianapolis) and they give away tickets all the time. I went to about 12 games last season for FREE.

I'm always confused by NHL fans and people who are worried about attendance and such. Look at the NBA, there is nothing to worry about...unless you're Phoenix.

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12-11-2009, 07:50 PM
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Paid Attendance:

Memphis: 6,879
Sacramento: 7,606
Milwaukee: 8,331
Philadelphia: 8,701
Charlotte: 8,969

Announced Attendance:

Memphis: 12,117
Sacramento: 12,145
Milwaukee: 14,578
Philadelphia: 12,853
Charlotte: 14,850

Can you say, Free Tickets!

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12-11-2009, 09:38 PM
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Im sure there are markets in the NHL where the "paid" and "announced" attendances are similar to that of the NBA.

In my particular situation, i paid for 2 season seats and won an extra 2 for the entire year (and hoping playoffs ). So, technically, the Devils can count all 4 of my seats as part of "paid" attendance.

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Old
12-11-2009, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas1235 View Post
Paid Attendance:

Memphis: 6,879
Sacramento: 7,606
Milwaukee: 8,331
Philadelphia: 8,701
Charlotte: 8,969

Announced Attendance:

Memphis: 12,117
Sacramento: 12,145
Milwaukee: 14,578
Philadelphia: 12,853
Charlotte: 14,850

Can you say, Free Tickets!
Everytime expansion talk comes around I point out how badly the Bucks are doing and that Milwaukee can barely afford to keep them and a MLB team but everyone always tries to pretend like it would be a great market

No one cares about Hockey in Milwaukee and from what I have heard the Bucks might not be there in the future

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12-11-2009, 11:02 PM
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The NBA has way too many teams. They only have basically one source of incoming players, that's the NCAA. Which recently has produce great players like Greg Oden......

The talent level stinks and the interest level is sinking like the titanic.

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12-11-2009, 11:09 PM
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Like Jonas said, NBA has to cut about 5 teams.

Mikwaukee to Chicago
Sacramento to San Jose
Memphis to Vancouver(I bet Stern regrets this mistake)
Charlotte: I really don't know Kansas City? St Louis? Seattle? Calgary? Pittsburgh?

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12-11-2009, 11:14 PM
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To put some of this into perspective.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...79/2072/SPORTS

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Through 14 home games, the Predators are averaging 12,913 fans in paid attendance, according to figures compiled by the team and obtained from the Nashville Sports Authority.
Nashville, who doesn't have a great hockey following has a paid attendance average that's almost 100% higher than some NBA teams.

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Old
12-12-2009, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
It seems a bit startling to see some of those NBA attendance figures. 5 cities averaging between 6 and 8 thousand fans a game? Do their fans get really defensive about it thinking that their relocation is pending like hockey fans would I wonder? Or is that a unique inferiority complex of hockey fans aspiring to be a major sport?
I'll bet NBA fans are totally obsessed with relocating the Toronto Raptors back to the USA "where people LOVE the game" etc, etc.

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12-12-2009, 02:05 AM
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I'll bet NBA fans are totally obsessed with relocating the Toronto Raptors back to the USA "where people LOVE the game" etc, etc.
I'd guess a second NHL team at the ACC in Toronto would be a welcomed addition after the Raptors relocated. The NBA isn't really on the radar of most Canadians in my experience.

GHOST

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12-12-2009, 02:44 AM
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I'd guess a second NHL team at the ACC in Toronto would be a welcomed addition after the Raptors relocated. The NBA isn't really on the radar of most Canadians in my experience.

GHOST
Most Canadians outside Toronto maybe. But the Raptors actually have been one of the more dependable teams in terms of attendance, especially considering their spotty on court performance. Despite 5 non-playoff years out of 7 (both of which they were bounced quickly), they've managed to hang in there attendance wise in the top half of the league.

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12-12-2009, 08:20 AM
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Most Canadians outside Toronto maybe. But the Raptors actually have been one of the more dependable teams in terms of attendance, especially considering their spotty on court performance. Despite 5 non-playoff years out of 7 (both of which they were bounced quickly), they've managed to hang in there attendance wise in the top half of the league.
Indeed that is true. I would posit that people who would suggest that the NBA is not of interest to Canadians are those who keep their world tightly focused on a very narrow continuum. Stroll through a mall in any of the major population areas and you will see a lot of NBA jerseys.

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12-12-2009, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by GHOSTofMAROONSroad View Post
I'd guess a second NHL team at the ACC in Toronto would be a welcomed addition after the Raptors relocated. The NBA isn't really on the radar of most Canadians in my experience.

GHOST
Why are trying to push the NBA out of Canada?
I know a lot of kids Winnipeg who don't care about the CFL or NHL anything Canadian.

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12-12-2009, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Indeed that is true. I would posit that people who would suggest that the NBA is not of interest to Canadians are those who keep their world tightly focused on a very narrow continuum. Stroll through a mall in any of the major population areas and you will see a lot of NBA jerseys.
Even Vancouver still has NBA fans, Ottawa and Montreal too.

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Old
12-12-2009, 08:51 AM
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Here's viewership numbers from last weekend.

1. NHL, Maple Leafs at Bruins, Saturday, CBC: 1,453,000

2. NHL, Montreal Canadiens centennial ceremony, Friday, CBC: 1,203,000

3. NHL, Bruins at Canadiens, Friday, CBC: 1,101,000

4. NHL, Flames at Sharks, Saturday, CBC: 810,000

11. Curling, Road of the Rings, Sunday, TSN2: 333,000

13. NBA, Raptors at Wizards, Friday, TSN: 219,000

16. NBA, Raptors at Bulls, Saturday, TSN: 203,000


Curling is more popular than basketball....

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