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Brian Lee Headed Our Way?

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Old
12-11-2009, 11:55 PM
  #26
skimp
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Goals scored by gritty players don't count as much as goals scored by skill players just like games played early in the season aren't worth as many points as games played later in the season.

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Old
12-11-2009, 11:58 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skimp View Post
Goals scored by gritty players don't count as much as goals scored by skill players just like games played early in the season aren't worth as many points as games played later in the season.
And points scored by Russians on other teams after they have left the Jackets organization are worth triple.

Zherdev had 150 points in New York. He's currently got at least 70 in 20 games by my estimation.

Filatov has 30 points in about 10 games in CSKA last time I checked.

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Old
12-12-2009, 12:00 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
And points scored by Russians on other teams after they have left the Jackets organization are worth triple.

Zherdev had 150 points in New York. He's currently got at least 70 in 20 games by my estimation.

Filatov has 30 points in about 10 games in CSKA last time I checked.
Nice job stirring the pot, you're good at infuriating people.

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Old
12-12-2009, 12:17 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pluckfur View Post
I realize you two are Jacket fans ... so it's not really surprising that you apparently need to be reminded that defensemen - and not just skilled, undersized and overhyped wingers- are ALLOWED to score goals in the NHL.
Ya, I know that... Help me here, is pinching something the head coach dictates or can players do it as they see fit?

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12-12-2009, 12:24 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by DougRiffle View Post
That is what I'm saying. We don't need Filatov to be a better team, we need better players on defense that can contribute not just on the power play or Tyutin's phantom assists.



Which is why we need an upgraded defense.
thanks for clarifying. I completely understand what you're saying.

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Old
12-12-2009, 12:24 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
Nice job stirring the pot, you're good at infuriating people.
To be honest Skimps post was brilliant, a point view few would ever envision; the responding poster was probably infuriated since it's something never considered.

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12-12-2009, 12:26 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert View Post
Ya, I know that... Help me here, is pinching something the head coach dictates or can players do it as they see fit?
Guys know when they've been given the greenlight to pinch. Whether they trust their co-defenders and the forwards to cover for them if the DO pinch is another story entirely.

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Old
12-12-2009, 12:27 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
To be honest Skimps post was brilliant, a point view few would ever envision; the responding poster was probably infuriated since it's something never considered.
Well typically skilled players score more goals than grinders. You don't see Raffi Torres winning Rocket Richard trophies.

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12-12-2009, 12:28 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
To be honest Skimps post was brilliant, a point view few would ever envision; the responding poster was probably infuriated since it's something never considered.
Dude, skimp was being facetious.

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Old
12-12-2009, 12:31 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
Well typically skilled players score more goals than grinders. You don't see Raffi Torres winning Rocket Richard trophies.
I doubt Torres will score our Stanley Cup winning goal either-but if there was a fourth liner that could do it he would be one.

Back to the thread, Lee for Filatov would be a huge mistake for the organizations future...

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12-12-2009, 01:03 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
Of course it's not fair, I don't agree with why Filatov should be traded, it's just something that has to be done. It's unfortunate for the fans that the Old Puck Coach couldn't put his ego aside for the better of the team. I don't want Filatov's value to deteriorate further than it already has and we get stuck with another "Tyutin and Backman" type deal which screwed us. Yes I don't like Tyutin, at all. I'm a Filatov fan and have defended him here to no end but he's gotta be traded while he still has value.


I thought the same when the KHL thing became reality but have pulled back after seeing the Jacket's play in the last two or three weeks.. I think Howson would be on shaky ground for his job if he trades away Filatov and his team misses the playoffs at the same time.

Don't be fooled by what you read here, the league is watching Howson's reaction to Hitchcock's handling of young high profile players very closely. This is a big money sport and the vultures are circling. The NHL needs all of the top players they can muster with 30 teams to stock-if the KHL takes to many top flight (star) players the North American folks funding the NHL could lose alot of money. Just sayin.


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Old
12-12-2009, 01:59 AM
  #37
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I'm just concerned with the thinking that we have enough offensive power as it is. Three years down the road, I doubt we'll have guys like Huselius and Torres, or if we do they won't be at the top of their game anymore. We'll still have Nash, which is great but we're still kind of hoping that Brassard and Voracek "grow up" to become the super skilled 1st liners they have potential to be. Who knows if they will or not. Other than that, what do we really have, offensively? Vermette is a great guy for the team, but I really feel like he's playing a bit higher in the lineup than he should. Ditto with Umbie.

The point is, I don't get the logic in dumping a guy like Filatov who will be 22 in three years because we allegedly have all the offense we need right now. When you are depending on Jason Chimera to to score 25 goals, you have a problem, IMO. Most good teams have great top 6 they can rely on to pile up the points (of course, great teams have scoring threats all throughout the lineup). But I don't see our top six as being all that great; I still think we're relying on certain guys to play a fair bit higher than they would on the depth chart on most teams.

And terrifyingly, you go by what Hitchcock insinuates, the only reason we've been scoring goals this year is because the guys aren't "buying in" to his "system." Once they do, the totals drop (look at the last two games). And let's be realistic here too guys, will Hitchcock himself even be here in three years? I know it's sacreligious to even suggest, but in reality, the average shelf-life of an NHL coach is what, like 4 seasons at most? I mean guys get fired all the time after taking their team to the conference finals and losing. It just doesn't make much sense to me to trade away a guy like Filatov to please a coach like Hitchcock when in the not too distant future we could have a coach who likes offense, and we'll have to spend 3 years building around that guy or something. It just doesn't seem like things are being handled properly and it's making me a little worried.

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Old
12-12-2009, 06:15 AM
  #38
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If Howson trades Filatov for these guys, I'll call for his head.

Lee looks to be like a Methot, and we need more right now at that position.
Winchester and Shannon look like career third liners at best.
I'd rather go sign a player like Boll who has scoring potential and unlimited energy and wouldn't cost us a prospect (like Dan Fritsche).

I still contend Filatov should be on our team and playing 8 to 10 minutes a night.
He's worth at least worth an aging 2nd line winger from a losing team that needs to rebuild.

Oh wait...maybe WE should trade for Filatov!

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Old
12-12-2009, 07:22 AM
  #39
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I'm not sure I'd trade Niki just yet and I don't know about that return at this juncture, but I'm surprised at the ignorance as regards Brian Lee. He's going to be a really good NHL defenseman, the kind of player the CBJ needs, who can play at both ends of the ice.

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12-12-2009, 12:24 PM
  #40
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Keep the in the Filatov/Hitchcock threads please.

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12-12-2009, 02:26 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
I'm not sure I'd trade Niki just yet and I don't know about that return at this juncture, but I'm surprised at the ignorance as regards Brian Lee. He's going to be a really good NHL defenseman, the kind of player the CBJ needs, who can play at both ends of the ice.
I'd love to see Lee here, but I would like to see Howson give up a pick and a prospect to get him. I'd prefer he not send Filatov though. I think his age makes him valuable here. He is four years removed from the draft and if he is like many defensemen, just now ready to play in the NHL.

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Old
12-12-2009, 07:11 PM
  #42
CapnCornelius
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Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
It's ridiculous to keep him and lose him for nothing if he's never going to play for Hitchcock. Trading him is actually smart asset management.
Not if what we get back is Brian Lee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pluckfur View Post
I realize you two are Jacket fans ... so it's not really surprising that you apparently need to be reminded that defensemen - and not just skilled, undersized and overhyped wingers- are ALLOWED to score goals in the NHL.
Problem is, at best, Lee smells like Tyutin 2.0--another cheap attempt to get a defenseman good at both ends of the ice, who ends up being very mediocre at both ends.

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Originally Posted by JACKETfan View Post
If Howson trades Filatov for these guys, I'll call for his head.

Lee looks to be like a Methot, and we need more right now at that position.
Winchester and Shannon look like career third liners at best.
I'd rather go sign a player like Boll who has scoring potential and unlimited energy and wouldn't cost us a prospect (like Dan Fritsche).

I still contend Filatov should be on our team and playing 8 to 10 minutes a night.
He's worth at least worth an aging 2nd line winger from a losing team that needs to rebuild.

Oh wait...maybe WE should trade for Filatov!
I second this. Lee isn't worth more than a second rounder at this point, if that. Now if the Sens are willing to trade Spezza for Filatov and something else, I might listen.

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12-12-2009, 07:40 PM
  #43
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This isn't the time to trade Filatov, especially for a prospect like Brian Lee. That's treating Filatov like he's Brule or Picard. He's not a bust yet. And even him playing over in Europe doesn't mean he doesn't want to play in North America.

If Howson does want to trade him to avoid conflict between Filatov and Hitch, then Filatov's value is much higher if he comes to camp after a great season in the KHL and a good summer working out and dominates during the pre-season.

Based on what Filatov has said, he truly wants to play in the NHL. He was willing to come over last year and play in Syracuse. So, even if Filatov wants a trade and doesn't want to play under Hitch, Howson needs to use that to his advantage and tell Nikita he needs to show he can be an NHL player before he can be traded for maximum value. Otherwise, he can stay in the KHL or stay miserable under Hitch.

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Old
12-12-2009, 08:45 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post


I second this. Lee isn't worth more than a second rounder at this point, if that. Now if the Sens are willing to trade Spezza for Filatov and something else, I might listen.
Agreed 100%. But my god, if Hitchcock couldn't work with Filatov, I can't imagine Spezza would be any better

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12-12-2009, 10:18 PM
  #45
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And terrifyingly, you go by what Hitchcock insinuates, the only reason we've been scoring goals this year is because the guys aren't "buying in" to his "system." Once they do, the totals drop (look at the last two games). And let's be realistic here too guys, will Hitchcock himself even be here in three years? I know it's sacreligious to even suggest, but in reality, the average shelf-life of an NHL coach is what, like 4 seasons at most? I mean guys get fired all the time after taking their team to the conference finals and losing. It just doesn't make much sense to me to trade away a guy like Filatov to please a coach like Hitchcock when in the not too distant future we could have a coach who likes offense, and we'll have to spend 3 years building around that guy or something. It just doesn't seem like things are being handled properly and it's making me a little worried.
The reason that a bunch of goals are being scored is because guys aren't buying in; this is true. What Hitchcock refers to is a bunch of goals being scored by guys who are wanting to run-and-gun and totally neglect the neutral zone and defensive zone.

It comes back to guys who either don't like their role or don't care about what it is. Rick Nash can play up high on the PK and try to get a turnover and breakaway. When some of the other guys decide they want to try it...well, let's just say there are very few times where a coach is going to think "Oh crap, what is he DOING? Keep going! Yes, great play!"

Some things simply aren't meant to be. Arturs Irbe was never meant to handle the puck and Luke Richardson was never meant to lead the rush. What's that old saying about mules and racehorses?

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Old
12-12-2009, 10:37 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palinka View Post
The reason that a bunch of goals are being scored is because guys aren't buying in; this is true. What Hitchcock refers to is a bunch of goals being scored by guys who are wanting to run-and-gun and totally neglect the neutral zone and defensive zone.

It comes back to guys who either don't like their role or don't care about what it is. Rick Nash can play up high on the PK and try to get a turnover and breakaway. When some of the other guys decide they want to try it...well, let's just say there are very few times where a coach is going to think "Oh crap, what is he DOING? Keep going! Yes, great play!"

Some things simply aren't meant to be. Arturs Irbe was never meant to handle the puck and Luke Richardson was never meant to lead the rush. What's that old saying about mules and racehorses?

Fair enough, but this guy just seems to want a team full of "mules", as it were, even if some of them are thoroughbreds.

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Old
12-12-2009, 11:04 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palinka View Post
The reason that a bunch of goals are being scored is because guys aren't buying in; this is true. What Hitchcock refers to is a bunch of goals being scored by guys who are wanting to run-and-gun and totally neglect the neutral zone and defensive zone.

It comes back to guys who either don't like their role or don't care about what it is. Rick Nash can play up high on the PK and try to get a turnover and breakaway. When some of the other guys decide they want to try it...well, let's just say there are very few times where a coach is going to think "Oh crap, what is he DOING? Keep going! Yes, great play!"

Some things simply aren't meant to be. Arturs Irbe was never meant to handle the puck and Luke Richardson was never meant to lead the rush. What's that old saying about mules and racehorses?
It's our racehorses that are getting scored on all the time, at even strength and on the PK. I did the numbers after 29 games, but I'll redo them after 41. I'll use 50 minutes as the cutoff point for PKers:

How many minutes until they're scored against on the penalty kill?

Pahlsson -- 15 (5 PPGA) (Tops in PK minutes, making this impressive.)
Umberger -- 10 (7 PPGA)
Methot -- 8 (8 PPGA)
Hejda -- 8 (10 PPGA)
Klesla -- 8 (11 PPGA)
Tyutin -- 7 (11 PPGA)
Vermette -- 5 (16 PPGA) (I'm guessing he and Nash need to focus more on defending during the PK and less on trying to score, since they're 2nd and 3rd in PK ice time among forwards.)
Nash -- 4 (17 PPGA)
Stralman -- 3 (5 PPGA. Included him for my own amusement, because he only had 13 minutes of PK time)

How long until they're scored against at even strength (200-minute cutoff)?

Russell -- 27 (11 ESGA)
Torres -- 25 (11 ESGA)
Pahlsson -- 25 (14 ESGA)
Hejda -- 21 (18 ESGA)
Tyutin -- 20 (24 ESGA)
Stralman -- 19 (22 ESGA)
Chimera -- 19 (20 ESGA)
Voracek -- 19 (19 ESGA)
Methot -- 18 (21 ESGA)
Vermette -- 17 (25 ESGA)
Huselius -- 16 (22 ESGA)
Klesla -- 15 (26 ESGA)
Umberger -- 15 (26 ESGA)
Commodore -- 15 (17 ESGA)
Brassard -- 13 (25 ESGA)
Nash -- 12 (36 ESGA)

Random note: Statistically, Boll is doing rather well. He's on the ice for 22 minutes before his line scores a goal (tied with Huselius), ahead of the likes of Chimera, Brassard, Pahlsson, Dorsett, Torres and a few others. He's also one of the best at not being scored on, ranking just behind MacKenzie, Blunden, Filatov, and Dorsett. Obviously, it's easier not to get scored against when you're on the fourth line, but the offensive contribution surprised me.

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Old
12-13-2009, 12:16 AM
  #48
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Nice work, Renion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those numbers saying that our best player is actually our worst player? If that's right, I have a bad feeling that this season has a lot more in store...

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Old
12-13-2009, 02:29 AM
  #49
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The trade would be stupidity.

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Old
12-14-2009, 07:58 PM
  #50
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Trade Tyutin for Lee straight up.

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