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We Blamed The Wrong Guy (Stevens)

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Old
12-15-2009, 11:58 AM
  #76
mikedifr
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Originally Posted by JSTAFF View Post
I'm quite happy with Carle at 3.5 million.

I'm also quite happy with the talent we have at the Forward position.

I'm also baffled by your post. Fault him for Downie/Upshall/Coburn/Parent? Downie is a ****ing loose cannon, which you probably call "great hockey sense." The guy just isn't any good, get off his dick. Upshall is a 3rd line energy player, oh wow, they aren't hard to find. We have the same thing in Powe, at a lesser cost. At least Powe has a head on his shoulders and isn't helping the Carter/Richards partying like Upshall would. Coburn has been taking steps backwards continously, but other teams still say he has a huge upside. Trade him now while you still can get a premium for him, no harm done.

Last night and the end of last season showed the Timonen/Parent pairing clicks. I'll take that 2nd pairing all day long.
Nobody is on Downie's dick, you completely missed the entire point...But you cant give a coach credit for developing two guys that were going to be stars regardless of who they played for (who played very well as rookies for the coach before him), call him a great developer of young talent, and then every other young player that played for him either a) didnt develop, b) went backwards (coburn, kukkonen) or c) play better elsewhere (Umberger).

Last time I checked, teams don't with the cup with 12 first liners, those 3rd liners and role players are equally as important and need to be developed as well.

And for the record, Upshall did not "help" the guys party, he was the ring leader of the partying, they always hung out at a club owned by a couple friends of mine.... and who the hell cares.....All rich, young professionals go out and party, I can give two craps how much they are doing that. The Bullies were out drinking as much as anyone. The Keenan teams in the 80s were out partying as much as anyone....That is what happens when you get a bunch of guys around the same age with lots of money. I did it too for while (obviously not nearly as much money though)

As far as the talent at forward, we can agree to disagree....I dont see a third line of Carcillo/Pyro/Asham/Powe or whoever it is at this given moment competing for a cup but that is just me.....A lot of us were crying for a "3rd line center" in the offseason. I dont necessarily care whether it is a center, but I think we are still missing that "#7 forward" a really good third liner....kinda like Upshall

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Old
12-15-2009, 12:03 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
I actually agree here with what you're saying. I figured that Laviolette would come back and support Carcillo, just not to the effect of having him playing on the first line. As for your railing against Hartnell above -- I completely agree. Love Hartnell's attitude, love his hair, love the fact that he does his job in front of the net...but I think he is one of the dumbest hockey players I've ever seen, and I can't stand hockey players with no sense (plus the fact that he's the only guy who can check himself and knock himself down).

However, you make the point that certain things "never mattered when the other guy was coach" -- the thing is, Stevens had this team long enough to implement any philosophy he wanted. Most people here gave him a pass on his first year just because that was the season from hell. After that, though, he was selective as to who went in his doghouse and probably didn't punish the repeat offenders as much as he should have. Laviolette just came in and has to get all of his stuff in place. Had Stevens been fired in July, let's say, then we're not having this discussion for a number of reasons, the key one being that Laviolette spells out his "accountability manifesto" in August/September. Laviolette is limited in how much he can enforce things because his team is very fragile right now. There hasn't been a fresh start or a period of good times in Flyerdom while he's been the coach. Stevens had both of those multiple times.
Your second paragraph is very well stated, agree 100%

As for Carcillo, who knows what is going through his head. I can see the argument against it obviously, but the guy was suspended. Didn't he serve his time for his actions?? Maybe Lavi thought it would motivate him into playing better.....Kinda like the child in a B level class in school that steps up into an advanced class and does better and you realize he was just bored in that lower level class.....Whether we all agree or not Carcillo has always been labeled a player that is capable of more, maybe Lavi things he can get something out of him.

Stevens got the benefit of the doubt that first season, and even part of the second season until a lot of us turned on him. Lavi certainly deserves as much time.

I was working and missed the game last night, how did that combination look?

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Old
12-15-2009, 12:05 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
I was working and missed the game last night, how did that combination look?
Carcillo looked a little clumsy, but not bad and he threw some big hits late in the game. I think he looks more comfortable, and appropriate, on a checking line, to be honest.

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Old
12-15-2009, 12:08 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Nobody is on Downie's dick, you completely missed the entire point...But you cant give a coach credit for developing two guys that were going to be stars regardless of who they played for (who played very well as rookies for the coach before him), call him a great developer of young talent, and then every other young player that played for him either a) didnt develop, b) went backwards (coburn, kukkonen) or c) play better elsewhere (Umberger).

Last time I checked, teams don't with the cup with 12 first liners, those 3rd liners and role players are equally as important and need to be developed as well.

And for the record, Upshall did not "help" the guys party, he was the ring leader of the partying, they always hung out at a club owned by a couple friends of mine.... and who the hell cares.....All rich, young professionals go out and party, I can give two craps how much they are doing that. The Bullies were out drinking as much as anyone. The Keenan teams in the 80s were out partying as much as anyone....That is what happens when you get a bunch of guys around the same age with lots of money. I did it too for while (obviously not nearly as much money though)

As far as the talent at forward, we can agree to disagree....I dont see a third line of Carcillo/Pyro/Asham/Powe or whoever it is at this given moment competing for a cup but that is just me.....A lot of us were crying for a "3rd line center" in the offseason. I dont necessarily care whether it is a center, but I think we are still missing that "#7 forward" a really good third liner....kinda like Upshall
We found that in Kalinski....

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12-15-2009, 12:10 PM
  #80
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someone mentioned how pumped up Carter and Richards looked pregame to be playing on the same line.
Boy that sure payed off on the ice.

btw Kalinski is really starting to grow on me. Kid is going to be a usefull player for us.
Unlike that turd Nodl.

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Old
12-15-2009, 12:11 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by harakiri View Post
We found that in Kalinski....
I certainly am not ready to say that....I would not be comfortable with Kalinski being on my top two lines to fill in for injuries, Upshall I was.....

And before any ignorant ******** decide to come on here and say I am riding Upshall's dick or whatever, I am just using him as an example of someone who is a really good 3rd liner, that could fill in on the top two lines when needed.

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12-15-2009, 12:12 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
someone mentioned how pumped up Carter and Richards looked pregame to be playing on the same line.
Boy that sure payed off on the ice.
I am guessing it didnt go too well??

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Old
12-15-2009, 12:14 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Nobody is on Downie's dick, you completely missed the entire point...But you cant give a coach credit for developing two guys that were going to be stars regardless of who they played for (who played very well as rookies for the coach before him), call him a great developer of young talent, and then every other young player that played for him either a) didnt develop, b) went backwards (coburn, kukkonen) or c) play better elsewhere (Umberger).

Last time I checked, teams don't with the cup with 12 first liners, those 3rd liners and role players are equally as important and need to be developed as well.

And for the record, Upshall did not "help" the guys party, he was the ring leader of the partying, they always hung out at a club owned by a couple friends of mine.... and who the hell cares.....All rich, young professionals go out and party, I can give two craps how much they are doing that. The Bullies were out drinking as much as anyone. The Keenan teams in the 80s were out partying as much as anyone....That is what happens when you get a bunch of guys around the same age with lots of money. I did it too for while (obviously not nearly as much money though)

As far as the talent at forward, we can agree to disagree....I dont see a third line of Carcillo/Pyro/Asham/Powe or whoever it is at this given moment competing for a cup but that is just me.....A lot of us were crying for a "3rd line center" in the offseason. I dont necessarily care whether it is a center, but I think we are still missing that "#7 forward" a really good third liner....kinda like Upshall

So today that is our 3rd line. Injuries happen, that will not be our 3rd line down the stretch.

Gagne-Richards-Powe
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JVR-Giroux-Kalinski/Pyorala
Carcillo-Betts-Laperriere

**** Nodl - Rotate Kalinski/Pyorala however it deemed necessary. I like Kalinski more personally.

Pronger-Carle
Timonen-Parent
Coburn-Bartulis

Emery
Boucher

-That is a cup worthy roster anyway you look at it. Perfect blend of veterans and young guys. D-pairings the way they should be.

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Old
12-15-2009, 12:22 PM
  #84
mikedifr
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Originally Posted by JSTAFF View Post
So today that is our 3rd line. Injuries happen, that will not be our 3rd line down the stretch.

Gagne-Richards-Powe
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
JVR-Giroux-Kalinski/Pyorala
Carcillo-Betts-Laperriere

**** Nodl - Rotate Kalinski/Pyorala however it deemed necessary. I like Kalinski more personally.

Pronger-Carle
Timonen-Parent
Coburn-Bartulis

Emery
Boucher

-That is a cup worthy roster anyway you look at it. Perfect blend of veterans and young guys. D-pairings the way they should be.
I know there are injuries....I just dont think Pyro, Kalinski, etc. are good enough, at least not yet. If they can pull off the pairings, and spreading the wealth like Detroit does with someone like Powe playing with Richards/Gagne and JVR/Giroux being the "3rd line" then maybe, but I think at least one of those guys needs to be in the top 6....Who knows, I may be wrong and I hope I am......I dont think this team is far away (although it looks it now) but I think a truly good third line forward needs to be aquired at the deadline

Just for the record, here some third liners and/or bottom 6 forwards from the last few cup winners:

Jordan Staal/Tyler Kennedy/Cooke/Dupuis
Daniel Cleary/Jiri Hudler/Mikael Samueslsson (Although Detroit mixed up their lines a lot)
Moen/Pahlsson/Niedermayer
Cullen/Recchi/Weight/Larose

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