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Old
12-12-2009, 09:29 PM
  #151
Whitesnake
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Originally Posted by dysonlu View Post
He doesn't get points for passes because his teammates can't score and when he, himself, does score, it gets refused by the ref (). So he's screwed.
Unfortunately, it will come to money, and for that amount, people also expect him to make his teamates better. Not be a complementary player to them. Mind you, I'm not sure Gretzky would have made Lapierre look good. Lapierre has no business on that line, it makes no sense to me why Martin keeps using him. You just have a guy like D'Ago who just scored his 1st goal not so long, so what do you do with him? You play him 4:21. Yes he ended up -2. So was it all his fault? Not sure about that. But then, Martin will end up using him the same way he used Lats before he left. By punishing him while because of his goal, he should have used him on the 2nd line. We talk about Price inconsistency sometimes, I'm sorry but Martin suffers from that as well. He was pretty patient with MaxPac. But he's not with D'Ago. And I really don't understand why he'd prefer Lapierre on that line because he moves his little feet but will not produce anything offensively (minus his great move on the Cammy goal) compared to a D'Ago who might have had in him to be on a sequence.

I believe that despite his goal against Pittsburgh, that confidence he built is all done already and he'll have to rebuild it with the game he had tonight. And that's not wise, I believe.

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:30 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
Man, habs were not winning this game with or without that penalty. If blaming the refs makes you sleep better then so be it.
If it makes you feel better, keep saying that to yourself.

In fact, since you seem to be able to see the future, tell me, when's the next time we're winning the Cup?

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12-12-2009, 09:31 PM
  #153
MathMan
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Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post
Oh, come on. I know you loved Lats, I liked him too, even I wanted to see him play on the top-6 to start the year off.
It's okay to trade him if he doesn't fit, but then you need to get value. Trading a regular, effective NHLer for a guy who might top off that good and was injured to boot isn't a good trade.

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But he's looked so disinterested in the training camp and showed so little desire to actually get in the traffic, crash the net and bang the opposition regularly that I was getting tired of watching him play his fancy little game.
The problem with that is always the same: his "fancy little game" was actually effective, and probably more effective for him than the style they wanted him to play. Carbonneau understood that. Martin didn't. That's one thing Carbo proved better at that Martin. That does not reflect well on the new coach, but that's hardly the only thing that doesn't.

The inability to use Lats' effectively is on Martin in my book. He was miscoached, plain and simple. Carbo could manage it, so we know it wasn't rocket science. A minor problem, really, and the least of the things I'm unimpressed with with JM right now. Sometimes a coach can't mesh with a player, and while I'm disappointed I wouldn't have argued too much about the trade if BG had actually gotten a decent return for the trade. But added to the rest, it doesn't amount to a very impressive picture.

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:33 PM
  #154
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Agree about Gionta and Markov, not so much about Pouliot (and how silly does that trade look right low? Lats is not only better than Pouliot, he could have been helping now if Martin had known how to use him.)

agree with you otherwise, but what is that based on? Pouliot hasn't played a game with us. Lats is benefiting from his usual having his linemates set him up perfectly. Also, I wouldn't say he's making the all-star team this year or anything. I love the "new" SK, but he really had to bury his chances tonight. This is pure speculation but Pouliot might have scored on the Gomez pass or the slow-motion breakaway and that would have been huge.

Honestly I think we played a good game tonight. The last penalty had to be called, but ffs at least 40% of them were awful calls. When we spend that much time on the PK, what can one expect. Once Metro got the penalty, the game plan was just get it to OT, which is what we did. I think we all got excited cuz there were 3 seconds left in the penalty and we thought we had conjured up another miracle. Overall everyone is playing well, it's just passed the time when you can miss your best chances. Andrei was having a clutch game and then the thrashers set up some amazing plays to keep tying it. It's those defensive lapses that cost us, but they were tic tac toe passes. SERGEI!!!!!


Also, for those of you who are saying JM mismanaged Lats (i.e. didn't baby him and ignore the rest of the team concept), what if he turns Pouliot into a regular scorer? Isn't that more notable? Not saying it will definitely happen, but wait for the other side of the trade to show its value.

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:33 PM
  #155
Erik Estrada
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It's okay to trade him if he doesn't fit, but then you need to get value. Trading a regular, effective NHLer for a guy who might top off that good and was injured to boot isn't a good trade.


... Sometimes a coach can't mesh with a player, and while I'm disappointed I wouldn't have argued too much about the trade if BG had actually gotten a decent return for the trade. But added to the rest, it doesn't amount to a very impressive picture.
We know where you stand... It's obvious that the Habs feel they got value and feel they got a decent return for the trade.

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:35 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by RE-HABS View Post
Pouliot hasn't even been given the opportunity to show what he can do to even say who won or loss that trade.
Montreal could've traded say Cammalleri for Crosby while Crosby had a dinged shoulder, and I don't think people would question me if I said this was a bad trade for the Penguins before Crosby ever played a game for Montreal. Not saying that it's on that level, but these guys have some amount of track record.

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Plus, Martin and coaches before him couldn't get Latendresse to perform.
Carbonneau did. The posters on this board just chose to ignore it.

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:36 PM
  #157
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It's way too soon to talk about who won that trade, Pouliot hasn't even played a game yet and Latendresse is playing his 8th right now if I'm not wrong.
Anyway, Latendresse this year had all the opportunities to impose himself as a core player, he even had the final top 6 spot to grab and he didn't do ****.
He couldn't follow the play with the top 6 and was a crappy bottom liner. He was expendable, especially with Pacioretty improving a lot and Pyatt and White who outplayed him.

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:36 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
We know where you stand... It's obvious that the Habs feel they got value and feel they got a decent return for the trade.
The way they felt Niinimaa was decent value for Ribeiro?

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:37 PM
  #159
Max Levine
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Lots of posts about Pouliot but unless he turns his game around and justifies his being a 1st round pick, Habs would still need a top 6 forward. Along with Markov and Gionta, that should help the puck possession strategy promised by JM.

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12-12-2009, 09:38 PM
  #160
Erik Estrada
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The way they felt Niinimaa was decent value for Ribeiro?
It's a hockey trade, it's not a dump like Ribeiro.

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:38 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Also, for those of you who are saying JM mismanaged Lats (i.e. didn't baby him and ignore the rest of the team concept), what if he turns Pouliot into a regular scorer? Isn't that more notable? Not saying it will definitely happen, but wait for the other side of the trade to show its value.
I'll be happy if JM makes Pouliot as effective as Lats. I have little confidence that this will happen, and no confidence that Martin is actually capable of accomplishing this.

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:39 PM
  #162
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It also pissed me off that whenever the other team is on a partial breakaway (I think its mainly O'byrne that does this) not only do we get a penalty called against us but the other team is still able to get a shot off and force our goalie to make a save. If you are going to take a penalty, make sure the scoring chance is eliminated!

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:40 PM
  #163
MathMan
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
It's a hockey trade, it's not a dump like Ribeiro.
It looked like a dump to me to be honest. Gainey traded Lats, to my eyes, because Martin couldn't use him and couldn't stand him. So it resulted in a bad hockey trade.

But we're wandering off-topic. I'm less worried about Martin's handling of Lats (he's not here anymore, after all) and more worried about his handling of the remaining young players and the absence of an effective system.

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:42 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
It looked like a dump to me to be honest. Gainey traded Lats, to my eyes, because Martin couldn't use him and couldn't stand him. So it resulted in a bad hockey trade.

But we're wandering off-topic. I'm less worried about Martin's handling of Lats and more worried about his handling of the remaining young players (how does Pyatt get more icetime than d'Agostini?) and the absence of a real system.
Your judging Pouliot before he's even played for us. Easy.

I was a huge Lats hater, I still am. It could turn out to still be a horrible trade, but only time will show that and right now we are only exposed to one side of it because the other is injured.

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:43 PM
  #165
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Can we make it a bannable offense to whine about Gomez because "he doesn't play like he's worth 7.5M? I mean, seriously, You're not paying the cash, so be quiet. And he's one of the best forwards on the team. Complaining about Gomez's contract is like whining to get more french players. Whine all you want, but you can't find a better, plausible scenario.
seriously. I'm so sick of hearing about it. We have a team that would not exist without that trade. It's like a package. It's done and we have some very capable players who can re-invent this hockey club. We've been playing w/o Gionta for awhile now, he's going to come back and help us big time. Also Gomez was superb tonight but as mentioned...no support. his acceleration is crazy and you can count on him to take the puck from our zone into theirs and get it to someone setup. That's where the plays were breaking down -- the people he was playing with would lose it or would just not even be paying attention or miss one timing his great passes. Gio will likely change that. Markov as well (the drop pass).

That was just the most unfortunate penalty this season...I still can't come to terms with it cuz Metro is such a responsible, dependable player who got us the first goal in the first place. frustrating...

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:44 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Unfortunately, it will come to money, and for that amount, people also expect him to make his teamates better. Not be a complementary player to them. Mind you, I'm not sure Gretzky would have made Lapierre look good. Lapierre has no business on that line, it makes no sense to me why Martin keeps using him. You just have a guy like D'Ago who just scored his 1st goal not so long, so what do you do with him? You play him 4:21. Yes he ended up -2. So was it all his fault? Not sure about that. But then, Martin will end up using him the same way he used Lats before he left. By punishing him while because of his goal, he should have used him on the 2nd line. We talk about Price inconsistency sometimes, I'm sorry but Martin suffers from that as well. He was pretty patient with MaxPac. But he's not with D'Ago. And I really don't understand why he'd prefer Lapierre on that line because he moves his little feet but will not produce anything offensively (minus his great move on the Cammy goal) compared to a D'Ago who might have had in him to be on a sequence.

I believe that despite his goal against Pittsburgh, that confidence he built is all done already and he'll have to rebuild it with the game he had tonight. And that's not wise, I believe.
I think JM is playing Lappy with Gomez because Lappy is more likely to attack the net, like Gionta does, than D'Ago would. Also, as I said before, I don't think JM likes D'Ago, the type of player, very much. I think JM is fond of players who show intensity, are responsible defensively and have good work ethic. D'Ago doesn't seem to have or show any of those. And he doesn't have AK46's talent, nor the size/physicality so D'Ago has very little going for him in terms of what he can bring to the table.


Last edited by Poulet Kostopoulos: 12-12-2009 at 10:00 PM.
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Old
12-12-2009, 09:45 PM
  #167
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Things are bad they are wery wery bad. So bad RDS only chose to let the viewer see 45% of the game.

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:45 PM
  #168
MathMan
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Originally Posted by dysonlu View Post
I think JM is fond of players that shows intensity, is responsible defensively and has good work ethic.
I long for the days where the Habs will have a coach that will value hockey effectiveness above the appearance of intensity.

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12-12-2009, 09:47 PM
  #169
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I long for the days where the Habs will have a coach that will value hockey effectiveness above the appearance of intensity.
How was Latendresse effective this season?
Did he even show signs of effectiveness and intensity?
Was he even doing anything good out there?

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:47 PM
  #170
Erik Estrada
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It looked like a dump to me to be honest. Gainey traded Lats, to my eyes, because Martin couldn't use him and couldn't stand him. So it resulted in a bad hockey trade.

But we're wandering off-topic. I'm less worried about Martin's handling of Lats and more worried about his handling of the remaining young players (how does Pyatt get more icetime than d'Agostini?) and the absence of a real system.
No they traded for Pouliot because Pouliot got injured. If he wasn't out for a few weeks and the Wild weren't in a critical situation, the Wild wouldn't have let Pouliot go.

The Habs weren't excited about Lats since last summer when he got the salary drop. They were also looking to see what they could get for him since at least october.

I know it doesn't jive with your preconceptions, but Pouliot was traded because he was injured not despite the fact he was injured.

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12-12-2009, 09:49 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
No they traded for Pouliot because Pouliot got injured. If he wasn't out for a few weeks and the Wild weren't in a critical situation, the Wild wouldn't have let Pouliot go.

The Habs weren't excited about Lats since last summer when he got the salary drop. They were also looking to see what they could get for him since at least october.

I know it doesn't jive with your preconceptions, but Pouliot was traded because he was injured not despite the fact he was injured.
Do you know this for a fact or is it your hypothesis?

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:50 PM
  #172
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Entry is too easy into the habs zone 5 on 5, and puck retrieval continues to be a problem in the offensive zone.

Thank god for the special teams and the goaltenders. Its allowing the habs to pick up points right now but in the long run, this is not a formula that's going to last.

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12-12-2009, 09:50 PM
  #173
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From my lone quote of the GDT:

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All I can say, is fear the Kovalchuk.
Sometimes, I hate being right.

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:51 PM
  #174
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Pouliot still have alot of potential, judging this trade right now is just absurb.

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Old
12-12-2009, 09:51 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
No they traded for Pouliot because Pouliot got injured. If he wasn't out for a few weeks and the Wild weren't in a critical situation, the Wild wouldn't have let Pouliot go.
Really? Were the Wild in such a critical situation that adding Latendresse was going to solve their immediate problems? Seriously. I have a high opinion of the guy, but he's still just not that impactful of a player right now.

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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
The Habs weren't excited about Lats since last summer when he got the salary drop. They were also looking to see what they could get for him since at least october.
Like I said, I don't agree, but if the guy doesn't fit, go ahead and trade him for value. IMHO it shows a poor evaluation of what makes a hockey player effective, and I'm not reassured by this fascination with players like Pyatt and White. But the main point is, you have to get value.

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