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Old
12-15-2009, 07:11 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by cassius View Post
I still think Crosby / Malkin should have been signed to a 10 year deal, minimum. It's the only way to circumvent the cap and get a little more bang for your buck. With a player like Crosby/Malkin, its absolutely a no brainer to lock them up as long as possible at the lowest possible cap hit. They did more in their first 1-2 years than most players do in their entire career.
Sid signed that deal before that little loophole was discovered. And I don't think Sid's contract should be compared to anyone else's. He was in a different situation where he was the first superstar player up for a deal. He had to do something that helped the team, but also kept the player's union quiet since he was setting the standard.

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12-16-2009, 01:59 PM
  #102
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Sid and Geno are different cases. You don't save anything by signing them to a 12 year deal because they're so young that they will still be playing by the time the contract ends. Circumventing the cap only works by tacking on ultra-cheap late years which the player is never going to fulfill because he'll retire 10 years in when he's 40. Sid and Geno are too young for that trick, unless you want to sign them for 20 years.

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12-16-2009, 03:26 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by The Mighty Boosh View Post
I'd trade Letang for Setoguchi in a second.

They are both really young, really talented and have extremely high ceilings. The difference is that the Pens have much more defensive depth than they do winger depth, and Setoguchi is a righty so it's all that much better.

I like Letang a lot, and think he'll be a very good player for years to come, but imagining Setoguchi and Crosby for the long haul is just too appealing to pass up.
Steoguchi is who I have playing on Sids wing on my NHL10, I have Malone - Crosby - Setoguchi. The line is pure win.

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12-16-2009, 03:56 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Sid signed that deal before that little loophole was discovered. And I don't think Sid's contract should be compared to anyone else's. He was in a different situation where he was the first superstar player up for a deal. He had to do something that helped the team, but also kept the player's union quiet since he was setting the standard.
Ovechkin signed his 13 year deal around the same time as Sid and I believe DiPietro had already inked his 15 year deal well before that. I think Sid was offered pen and paper and he chose 5 years, what that means I don't know but if he wanted 10 years they definitely would've given it to him. Malkin just seemed to follow Sid's footsteps, honestly I would've offered Staal 7 years at $3M-ish, somewhat like Fleury's deal - though who knows if he would've taken it.

One thing you can say about Geno and Sid is that they're smart financially and they have good agents. Both guys know they hold all the bargaining chips and if they want more $ on the next contract they'll get it.

As for Letang, I just don't know what terms I'd offer him if I'm Shero. It'll probably wind up being a 3 year deal in the ballpark of $2-$3M depending on what happens to Gonchar. He has a ton of potential but is just too inconsistent and I doubt he signs long-term for a reduced amount when he isn't even close to peaking.

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12-16-2009, 04:44 PM
  #105
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On the rumors board, they're discussing Erik Johnson discussing a new deal with St. Louis, and they brought up names like Vlasic, Edler, Barker and even Seabrook as possible comparables. The first three guys are in the $3 million range, Seabrook is in the $3.5 million range and E. Johnson could be somewhere in the $4 million bracket.

Do we STILL think Kris Letang can be signed for less than $3.5 million? If we could get him for 3, it'd be a minor miracle. We need to be more realistic here.

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12-16-2009, 04:47 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
On the rumors board, they're discussing Erik Johnson discussing a new deal with St. Louis, and they brought up names like Vlasic, Edler, Barker and even Seabrook as possible comparables. The first three guys are in the $3 million range, Seabrook is in the $3.5 million range and E. Johnson could be somewhere in the $4 million bracket.

Do we STILL think Kris Letang can be signed for less than $3.5 million? If we could get him for 3, it'd be a minor miracle. We need to be more realistic here.
Yeah, I'd say 3.0 - 3.5 million would be about right. We'll see if Shero can work his magic again to fit the guy in.

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12-16-2009, 04:56 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
On the rumors board, they're discussing Erik Johnson discussing a new deal with St. Louis, and they brought up names like Vlasic, Edler, Barker and even Seabrook as possible comparables. The first three guys are in the $3 million range, Seabrook is in the $3.5 million range and E. Johnson could be somewhere in the $4 million bracket.

Do we STILL think Kris Letang can be signed for less than $3.5 million? If we could get him for 3, it'd be a minor miracle. We need to be more realistic here.
Letang doesn't have near the pedigree of Johnson and Barker, though, who were #1 and (what?) #3 picks overall. He also does not have the absolute upside of those two. I'm quite sure that if the deal was offered, RS would trade Letang for either of them in a minute, no? Or, put differently, is there any chance that St. Louis or Chicago would trade either of their guys for Letang? Clearly, no.

What does that all mean? If the GM is an idiot like Holmgren or Sather, probably nothing. But I think RS has a plan, and he'll stick to it, and that plan is not to overpay unless it's a deal that RS is convinced will be highway robbery by the end of it.

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12-16-2009, 04:58 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
On the rumors board, they're discussing Erik Johnson discussing a new deal with St. Louis, and they brought up names like Vlasic, Edler, Barker and even Seabrook as possible comparables. The first three guys are in the $3 million range, Seabrook is in the $3.5 million range and E. Johnson could be somewhere in the $4 million bracket.

Do we STILL think Kris Letang can be signed for less than $3.5 million? If we could get him for 3, it'd be a minor miracle. We need to be more realistic here.
I think Vlasic is a pretty good comparison for Letang he put up 36 points the season before his deal.

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12-16-2009, 04:58 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by hockeydadx2 View Post
Letang doesn't have near the pedigree of Johnson and Barker, though, who were #1 and (what?) #3 picks overall. He also does not have the absolute upside of those two. I'm quite sure that if the deal was offered, RS would trade Letang for either of them in a minute, no? Or, put differently, is there any chance that St. Louis or Chicago would trade either of their guys for Letang? Clearly, no.

What does that all mean? If the GM is an idiot like Holmgren or Sather, probably nothing. But I think RS has a plan, and he'll stick to it, and that plan is not to overpay unless it's a deal that RS is convinced will be highway robbery by the end of it.
Yeah, but Letang is comparable to Vlasic & Edler and they both got 3 million. I can't see Tanger getting/taking any less than that.

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12-16-2009, 06:58 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by DekeShot View Post
Ovechkin signed his 13 year deal around the same time as Sid and I believe DiPietro had already inked his 15 year deal well before that. I think Sid was offered pen and paper and he chose 5 years, what that means I don't know but if he wanted 10 years they definitely would've given it to him. Malkin just seemed to follow Sid's footsteps, honestly I would've offered Staal 7 years at $3M-ish, somewhat like Fleury's deal - though who knows if he would've taken it.

One thing you can say about Geno and Sid is that they're smart financially and they have good agents. Both guys know they hold all the bargaining chips and if they want more $ on the next contract they'll get it.

As for Letang, I just don't know what terms I'd offer him if I'm Shero. It'll probably wind up being a 3 year deal in the ballpark of $2-$3M depending on what happens to Gonchar. He has a ton of potential but is just too inconsistent and I doubt he signs long-term for a reduced amount when he isn't even close to peaking.
Sid was in a precarious situation. He had to appease many people with his deal. Dipietro was the first to sign a deal of ridiculous lengths, but Sid did sign before Ovechkin, and Geno did follow exactly in Sid's footsteps. As far as their next deals go, they know what we're dealing with here. It depends if they want to stay together. If they do, then they both have to sit down and determine what they both will be looking to get. What is working in our favor with that is that they both share an agent.

And why would Staal take a 7 year deal? If anything, he would be the one player out of anyone on the team who would be taking a shorter length deal. Let's face it, he won't be playing 3rd fiddle here forever. He did a wise thing signing the deal he did. He gets paid well, he has the ability to grow under some of the best players in the game, and be in Cup contention every year until his contract runs out.

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12-16-2009, 07:09 PM
  #111
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Aren't Crosby & Malkin both still under the same agency (CAA Sports)? I heard JP Barry in an interview a couple of summers ago. He said he wasn't a believer in these new really long-term contracts. I don't know how Pat Brisson feels about them and I'm sure CAA Sports has some guy's that have really long-term deals, but it makes you wonder if the agents pushed for these shorter-term deals. Obviously, it's still up to Sid & Geno etc. The agent could be some influence, though.

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12-16-2009, 07:14 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
Aren't Crosby & Malkin both still under the same agency (CAA Sports)? I heard JP Barry in an interview a couple of summers ago. He said he wasn't a believer in these new really long-term contracts. I don't know how Pat Brisson feels about them and I'm sure CAA Sports has some guy's that have really long-term deals, but it makes you wonder if the agents pushed for these shorter-term deals. Obviously, it's still up to Sid & Geno etc. The agent could be some influence, though.
If I was in their shoes I wouldn't sign one of those real long term deals, who knows what could happen 5 years down the road.

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12-16-2009, 07:26 PM
  #113
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I friggin love Sergei Gonchar, and will always defend him... but if it comes to either Gonchar or Letang; you choose Letang. He's very inconsistent but usually at that age it is to be expected (See: Staal).
I hope Shero can find some way to retain both though.. I want Sarge to be a Penguin when he retires.

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12-16-2009, 07:55 PM
  #114
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I friggin love Sergei Gonchar, and will always defend him... but if it comes to either Gonchar or Letang; you choose Letang. He's very inconsistent but usually at that age it is to be expected (See: Staal).
I hope Shero can find some way to retain both though.. I want Sarge to be a Penguin when he retires.
During the 95-96 season is when Gonchar would have been 22 (the age of Letang), and during that season Gonchar played 78 games and posted 41pts (15G,26A). If Letang can post numbers close to that this season then I would take him over Gonchar. Right now with 25 games played he has 11pts (1G,10A), assuming he plays 75 games (which is one more than he played last season) this season he is on pace to get 33pts as long as he does not slump or get on a hot streak. I could live with that end season stat to resign him.

The thing I have been wondering is how the Goligoski contract of 1.8M will affect Letangs contract. Everyone keeps on saying give him 3.5, or give him 3 flat, etc etc.

After getting Goligoski on that deal, I just do not see Letang who as you have said has proven to be inconsistent will be give a contract worth that much more than Gogo's. I would give Letang a 2.2-2.5M contract for 3-4 years.


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12-16-2009, 08:06 PM
  #115
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During the 95-96 season is when Gonchar would have been 22 (the age of Letang), and during that season Gonchar played 78 games and posted 41pts (15G,26A). If Letang can post numbers close to that this season then I would take him over Gonchar.

The thing I have been wondering is how the Goligoski contract of 1.8M will affect Letangs contract. Everyone keeps on saying give him 3.5, or give him 3 flat, etc etc.

After getting Goligoski on that deal, I just do not see Letang who as you have said has proven to be inconsistent will be give a contract worth that much more than Gogo's. I would give Letang a 2.2-2.5M contract for 3-4 years.
Goligoski got 1.8 million per after only a half season in the NHL. He hadn't even established himself as a full time NHL'er yet and got that much. Letang's already played multiple full seasons in the NHL. He will get salary comparable to Vlasic and Edler and not the unproven Gogo. Pens will either pay the 3 million or somebody else gladly will. Compensation for a 3.0 to 3.9 million offer sheet would be a 1st & 3rd round pick. A team with a high pick wouldn't do it, but a team picking like 20-30 and maybe a little higher will gladly give up a late 1st and late 3rd and let a veteran D-man walk to shed salary to sign Letang, imo.

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12-16-2009, 08:32 PM
  #116
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How many players have actually gotten offer sheets? Not too many. I don't fear Letang getting one. If he gets one that has payback to us as a 1st and a 3rd, though, I think RS would let him walk.

As for Sarge, I hope he can stay a few more years. He would have to take a cut in pay, for sure, but he's not getting $5million/yr from anybody next year, given his age and the likely stagnant cap.

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12-16-2009, 09:29 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by hockeydadx2 View Post
How many players have actually gotten offer sheets? Not too many. I don't fear Letang getting one. If he gets one that has payback to us as a 1st and a 3rd, though, I think RS would let him walk.

As for Sarge, I hope he can stay a few more years. He would have to take a cut in pay, for sure, but he's not getting $5million/yr from anybody next year, given his age and the likely stagnant cap.
Letang is worth more than a 1st & 3rd round pick though, especially to a contender.

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12-16-2009, 09:37 PM
  #118
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First, the Blackhawks would most definitely trade a 13-14-minute guy like Barker for a 20-22-minute guy like Letang. Pedigree means very little when Letang has performed like a first-round pick ever since his draft year. Defensively, they're not close.

Secondly, why wouldn't a team desperate for a PP quarterback not offer Gonchar $5 million? Too many assumptions here.

Third, Goligoski wasn't established when we signed him. He wanted security, we wanted a cap-friendly deal based on potential. Much different than Letang, who is a Cup winner by the time negotiations roll around. Apples to oranges.

Lastly, why mess around? Sign Letang and don't worry about potential offer sheets. All our other RFAs don't have offer-sheet value.

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12-16-2009, 09:43 PM
  #119
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Won't be too much longer, and we'll see what RS is thinking. The longer this season goes by without an extension, the less likely a big dollar number is going to get offered, unless Letang really starts to break out. If RS were really worried about that offer sheet, this would be done by now.

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12-16-2009, 10:06 PM
  #120
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Won't be too much longer, and we'll see what RS is thinking. The longer this season goes by without an extension, the less likely a big dollar number is going to get offered, unless Letang really starts to break out. If RS were really worried about that offer sheet, this would be done by now.
It's only dragging out because both sides want to see where the cap is. If they had that information right now, a contract probably would have been pounded out already.

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12-16-2009, 11:05 PM
  #121
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If I was in their shoes I wouldn't sign one of those real long term deals, who knows what could happen 5 years down the road.
I thought it very understandable too with the way the cap was exploding upwards and the team still not being the elite one it is now. They aren't just stars either, they're superstars.

Next time however, it will be a little different if the league hasn't come down on long term contracts.
Both Sid and Malkin will have banked more than 43 million dollars before tax and commercial deals, made a real connection with the city and franchise, and more over they will be at an age where a 10 year deal takes them into their mid-late 30's. Guaranteed money.

We'll see. A lot of hockey to enjoy before that.

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12-16-2009, 11:16 PM
  #122
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Shero hasn't done a good job playing with the years on our long-term contracts - I hope he looks around at what the rest of the league is doing and applies it to Letang's contract. 10 year $30 Mil would be perfect.
Shero's done a fantastic job with the contracts. Better than anyone could've dreamed, actually - do people forget that quickly how everyone and their sister was saying that keeping this team's high draft picks was impossible? Well we've kept them thanks to Shero; the lengths are semi long-term and the dollars are manageable...not a single terrible deal, and more than a few steals.

What happens if you sign Letang to a 10 year and he DiPietros? Or Franzens?

He's got his core in place and rotates in complementary players. He never gets caught with a lengthy albatross contract and has 2 Finals appearances and 1 Cup in a 3 year time frame using his plan of attack. Only a spoiled rotten fan could possibly find fault with how he's performed.

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I still think Crosby / Malkin should have been signed to a 10 year deal, minimum. It's the only way to circumvent the cap and get a little more bang for your buck. With a player like Crosby/Malkin, its absolutely a no brainer to lock them up as long as possible at the lowest possible cap hit. They did more in their first 1-2 years than most players do in their entire career.
I suppose all he had to do was tell them to sign on the dotted line, eh?

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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
On the rumors board, they're discussing Erik Johnson discussing a new deal with St. Louis, and they brought up names like Vlasic, Edler, Barker and even Seabrook as possible comparables. The first three guys are in the $3 million range, Seabrook is in the $3.5 million range and E. Johnson could be somewhere in the $4 million bracket.

Do we STILL think Kris Letang can be signed for less than $3.5 million? If we could get him for 3, it'd be a minor miracle. We need to be more realistic here.
I think it's very possible that Letang could sign a short-term contract in the 3 mil range.

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12-16-2009, 11:19 PM
  #123
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First, the Blackhawks would most definitely trade a 13-14-minute guy like Barker for a 20-22-minute guy like Letang. Pedigree means very little when Letang has performed like a first-round pick ever since his draft year. Defensively, they're not close.
You mentioned Erik Johnson and Cam Barker. The two examples, IMO, are nowhere close. Barker got his contract because of a clerical error and a hot season last year.
Erik Johnson will get his because he is an obvious perennial Norris candidate who has been slowed down by injuries. Barker is indeed not as good defensively as Letang, but the minutes thing doesn't mean that they'd be playing the same if their roles were flipped. Barker is third pairing on Chicago and there are three guys who are better than him on the PP. Letang is second pairing for us, and there are two guys better than him on the PP.

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Secondly, why wouldn't a team desperate for a PP quarterback not offer Gonchar $5 million? Too many assumptions here.
Aren't you assuming also? Who are desperate for a PP quarterback? A 35+ year old one of the kind? And are those teams likely options that Gonchar would prefer over taking a slight discount to be on the Pens with whom he has had his best and most successful seasons?
Many teams have a Nr.1 already. Most top teams sure do.
Of course, if Sarge only looks at the money, then likely there will be a better offer than the one Pens can make. But you gotta think at this point in his career it isn't the be all end all.

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Lastly, why mess around? Sign Letang and don't worry about potential offer sheets. All our other RFAs don't have offer-sheet value.
Attempting to be screwd with the cap is not messing around. Its taking a chance. Letang has no leverage outside of offer sheets coming in. They're rare. Very rare.
Also - messing around... to be honest that is what you advocate... ie. forgetting about our Nr.1 defenseman and relying on those who have not yet shown capable of shouldering the load without him. Record with/without Gonchar... says a lot. Gonchar with 18 points in 22 games this season playing by far the most minutes on the team. Says a lot too. He is vastly more important now than Letang will be for several seasons yet. Reward Letang for his PLAY rather than the fact that he has been on a Stanley Cup winner.


Last edited by Tender Rip: 12-16-2009 at 11:30 PM.
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12-16-2009, 11:45 PM
  #124
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Won't be too much longer, and we'll see what RS is thinking. The longer this season goes by without an extension, the less likely a big dollar number is going to get offered, unless Letang really starts to break out. If RS were really worried about that offer sheet, this would be done by now.
Could have thought the same with Goligoski last summer. Shero waited until after the season before he re-signed Gogo. Many people on this board thought 1.8 was a bit much for Gogo at the time. Here's the thread http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=652033&page=2

Shero could have waited to see if another team would offer Gogo a deal, but he gave in and gave Gogo a little more than people expected to keep him out of RFA. I'd imagine he'll do the same with Letang, but if the cap goes down, Shero may be forced into a game of chicken or might have to trade him. Who knows...

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12-17-2009, 09:11 AM
  #125
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Also - messing around... to be honest that is what you advocate... ie. forgetting about our Nr.1 defenseman and relying on those who have not yet shown capable of shouldering the load without him. Record with/without Gonchar... says a lot. Gonchar with 18 points in 22 games this season playing by far the most minutes on the team. Says a lot too. He is vastly more important now than Letang will be for several seasons yet. Reward Letang for his PLAY rather than the fact that he has been on a Stanley Cup winner.
Sorry, but I disagree on that last part. Right now, Letang is just as important as Gonchar to this team. Sarge isn't playing anywhere near a Norris trophy level. Heck, if every team had to submit a Norris candidate right now, our pick should be Eaton.

We were fine when Sarge was out of the lineup. Do we look better with him? Obviously. But we also look better with Letang than without him. And with Goligoski than without him.

This time next season, Letang will be ahead of Sarge in terms of performance.

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