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Old
12-15-2009, 08:25 AM
  #76
JonathanHuberdoh
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There is just under 50 games left in the season. Tanking would achieve nothing other then maybe lose to small fan base we still have.

The only thing that can help this franchise is playoffs. Results=playoffs. The fans don't want to hear anymore "promises" or "bright future" talk. They want results. You can talk about Hall all you want, but he's not a for sure thing, especially with our draft history.

Our key young guys are finally stepping up into the roles they were supposed to have. Horton is playing like an elite forward now. He is the best player on the team. We'd be stupid to tank the season. We've been hanging in there with 2 of our top-6 forwards missing. When they come back, we'll be even better.

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Old
12-15-2009, 08:27 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
Pulkinnen has been injured badly... But he is a really amazing talent !

Don't know much about McFarland...

I would love to get Sean Couturier in 2011 !
I wouldn't be touching Pulkinnen in the 1st round. He has a history of injuries already, and he was falling in the rankings anyway.

Granlund was out for about two weeks, but returned recently. I think he has 19 pts in 20 games so far.

Couturier is a great talent, but i've heard that he still needs to improve his skating if he wants to go #1. Larsson should be the undisputed #1 for 2011 right now, but that may well change in the coming 18 months. To be honest, i don't know much about 2011 draft yet. Its supposed to be weaker, but thats purely conjecture at this point in time. I've heard Russia and Sweden are relatively strong, America is at this point looking weaker (especially incomparison to 2010) and it definitely at this point seems a weaker year for Canada (the last two or three have been absurdly good drafts from a Canadian perspective). Again though, pure conjecture at this point (as it is with 2010 i guess).

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12-15-2009, 09:46 AM
  #78
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So, uh, our "not elite" forward got three last night. And an assist if I remember correctly. Personally speaking, watching him take that shot on the breakaway was enough for me. An elite scorer's beauty.

But I would agree that he lacks Iginla's fire and intensity. But Nate is going to be what he's going to be, not what we would like him to be.

And I would agree with BabyJagrov's statement:
Quote:
If by elite you mean Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby... Well I'm sorry but we ain't gonna get one soon, because there are only 3 of those in the League...
Correction: In the world.

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Old
12-15-2009, 09:48 AM
  #79
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Yeah, I really like what I've heard about Granlund. If we can get him I'll be happy, but then we need to miss the playoffs (Again) probably, or trade up. Isn't he like ranked around 6th - 10th?

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12-15-2009, 11:44 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
40 goals and 90 points... Borderline elite ? Well I can't do anything more to help Panthers fans... I'll just have to recommand to learn hockey a bit...

Sorry for being cocky, and it is nothing against you particularly Laus... I'm just getting tired of fans always crying... If by elite you mean Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby... Well I'm sorry but we ain't gonna get one soon, because there are only 3 of those in the League... We look the same as 28 other teams in the NHL !
Horton has had a very nice run but we shall see if he can keep this pace up. He is a good player but not an elite one. His history speaks louder than the nice streak he is on now.

Always crying? Have you been following this team for more than a few years?

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12-15-2009, 11:45 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Panthers/Leafs fan View Post
So, uh, our "not elite" forward got three last night. And an assist if I remember correctly. Personally speaking, watching him take that shot on the breakaway was enough for me. An elite scorer's beauty.

But I would agree that he lacks Iginla's fire and intensity. But Nate is going to be what he's going to be, not what we would like him to be.

And I would agree with BabyJagrov's statement:

Correction: In the world.
Horton is good and having a nice run. We shall see if he can keep it up. Weiss as well.

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Old
12-15-2009, 12:03 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Horton has had a very nice run but we shall see if he can keep this pace up. He is a good player but not an elite one. His history speaks louder than the nice streak he is on now.

Always crying? Have you been following this team for more than a few years?
I've been a fan since day one my friend !

And when my team is finally starting to look like a real organisation, you want me to throw the season away and tank ? Sorry, not happening here...

I know it is only a great run for Horton at the moment... But if he keeps up this pace and puts about a point-per-game season, would you call him an elite forward ? I guess a lot of fans here still wouldn't...

By the way, Nate has missed A LOT of opportunities at the start of the season... He is getting his timing back and you can see him behind on the right wing is the right thing... Like having him on left when we have a PP... Horton could have nearly 20 goals at this time right now... He has more chances than any year before... And he is still on pace for 76 points... While just starting to get hot ! And hustling like a madman !

So we will wait until the end of the season... As I 've said all along, our first line needs to carry us... And they will, they are showing it right now ! We just have top hope the TEAM win a fair share of games... And to me, fair would be enough to get us in the playoffs !

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Old
12-15-2009, 12:06 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Horton has had a very nice run but we shall see if he can keep this pace up. He is a good player but not an elite one. His history speaks louder than the nice streak he is on now.

Always crying? Have you been following this team for more than a few years?
by history do you mean his history of a couple of healthy years at or above 60 pts when he was.... *21-22* years old??? nate is still very young and still (clearly) learning. i'm not expecting him to finish up the year as a ppg guy but i can easily see 70. don't really know why you're intent on hammering him.

on the larger topic, this has been a lively thread but i think the premise has been debunked. not that i haven't held this thought in my mind before (like many others who've commented); it's just not a realistic option given where we are at with some of our younger guys. and i think the our surplus in net and on D will, at some point in the near-ish future allow us to make a move or two to address the concerns stated here.

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Old
12-15-2009, 12:07 PM
  #84
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Detroit has done a great job of finishing last and staying on top.....

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Old
12-15-2009, 12:07 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
I've been a fan since day one my friend !

And when my team is finally starting to look like a real organisation, you want me to throw the season away and tank ? Sorry, not happening here...

I know it is only a great run for Horton at the moment... But if he keeps up this pace and puts about a point-per-game season, would you call him an elite forward ? I guess a lot of fans here still wouldn't...

By the way, Nate has missed A LOT of opportunities at the start of the season... He is getting his timing back and you can see him behind on the right wing is the right find... Like having him on left when we have a PP... Horton could have nearly 20 goals at this time right now... He has more chances than any year before... And he is still on pace for 76 points... While just starting to get hot !

So we will wait until the end of the season... As I 've said all along, our first line needs to carry us... And they will, they are showing it right now ! We just have top hope the TEAM win a fair share of games... And to me, fair would be enough to get us in the playoffs !
Finally looking like a real organization? If we lost last night we could have fallen to 29th place!

One season doesn't make him an elite forward. It would be a career year but that doesn't earn him elite status. It has the makings of a good year and he is on PACE for 76 which means little to me at this point. He is hot, not just starting to get hot.

Playoffs are a major uphill climb.

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Old
12-15-2009, 12:08 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by mind_the_gap View Post
Detroit has done a great job of finishing last and staying on top.....
completely unrelated

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Old
12-15-2009, 12:12 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
by history do you mean his history of a couple of healthy years at or above 60 pts when he was.... *21-22* years old??? nate is still very young and still (clearly) learning. i'm not expecting him to finish up the year as a ppg guy but i can easily see 70. don't really know why you're intent on hammering him.

on the larger topic, this has been a lively thread but i think the premise has been debunked. not that i haven't held this thought in my mind before (like many others who've commented); it's just not a realistic option given where we are at with some of our younger guys. and i think the our surplus in net and on D will, at some point in the near-ish future allow us to make a move or two to address the concerns stated here.
I'm not hammering. Excuse me for not labeling him elite. He isn't. Also, if he finishes with 70 points for the next five years I wouldn't consider him elite. Additionally, players can be seen and presumed to be elite at young ages.

The premise has not been debunked at all. We lose last night and we are 29th without even making a move to tank! We get a lottery pick. A lottery pick at the end of the season is more likely than the playoffs.

So what happens when we finish with 89 points and miss the playoffs? How is that any different than finishing with 70 and getting a super prospect? There is no difference.

You've agreed with me before that the only way to get elite talent is through the draft and that's what we need.

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12-15-2009, 12:23 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Finally looking like a real organization? If we lost last night we could have fallen to 29th place!

One season doesn't make him an elite forward. It would be a career year but that doesn't earn him elite status. It has the makings of a good year and he is on PACE for 76 which means little to me at this point. He is hot, not just starting to get hot.

Playoffs are a major uphill climb.
Guess it's always the glass half-full/half-empty problem...

When speaking of my organisation, I don't look at the standings... Well, I mean I look at other things too, you know !

We have new owners on board, we have a great coach (and still learning too, just like our team which goes with the philosophy... if you don't trust DeBoer that is another problem), we have a partnership with another great organisation (the Rochester Americans if you haven't heard of them) who will help develop our pool of prospects, we have a pretty good pool too (Markstrom and Salak, heard of them ? And I'm not going to talk about Duco, McCardle, Oreskovich, Matthias, Repik, Dadonov, Ellerby, Garrison... ), we have one of the youngest team in the NHL (Horton, the guy who can't be elite... Kulikov, the no-he-won't-be-Markov defenseman... Weiss, yeah Yzerman my ass... Frolik, baby baby Dvorak...) and we have played some damn good hockey in this young season !!

Can you hear that second-half surging coming ?

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Old
12-15-2009, 12:25 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by BabyJagrov View Post
Guess it's always the glass half-full/half-empty problem...

When speaking of my organisation, I don't look at the standings... Well, I mean I look at other things too, you know !

We have new owners on board, we have a great coach (and still learning too, just like our team which goes with the philosophy... if you don't trust DeBoer that is another problem), we have a partnership with another great organisation (the Rochester Americans if you haven't heard of them) who will help develop our pool of prospects, we have a pretty good pool too (Markstrom and Salak, heard of them ? And I'm not going to talk about Duco, McCardle, Oreskovich, Matthias, Repik, Dadonov, Ellerby, Garrison... ), we have one of the youngest team in the NHL (Horton, the guy who can't be elite... Kulikov, the no-he-won't-be-Markov defenseman... Weiss, yeah Yzerman my ass... Frolik, baby baby Dvorak...) and we have played some damn good hockey in this young season !!

Can you hear that second-half surging coming ?
Give me a percentage of likelihood you think we will make the playoff?

Our organization is in decent shape but not great when you compare it to other places.

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12-15-2009, 12:30 PM
  #90
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Basically, I don't think we are going to make the playoffs or even come close. I think we'll miss it by 8 points. With that said, what is the difference between finishing just outside the playoffs and being eliminated a month earlier? There is no difference EXCEPT you get a shot a super prospect instead of someone who could be labeled a top 6 forward.

Also, we may not even have to make any changes and end up in 29th place. We are very close to it now and if one of Horton, Weiss, or Vokoun gets injured it would be basically guaranteed.

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12-15-2009, 12:45 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Basically, I don't think we are going to make the playoffs or even come close. I think we'll miss it by 8 points. With that said, what is the difference between finishing just outside the playoffs and being eliminated a month earlier? There is no difference EXCEPT you get a shot a super prospect instead of someone who could be labeled a top 6 forward.

Also, we may not even have to make any changes and end up in 29th place. We are very close to it now and if one of Horton, Weiss, or Vokoun gets injured it would be basically guaranteed.
It depends on what kind of percentage you want... If you want my estimation of where they will finish with a probability number... Or if you want their chances of finishing in a playoff position... For the second one, I think there is a website on the internet that evaluates those chances on a daily-basis !


Now, if you want my opinion... And I make those believing we have come out of the storm, injury-speaking... I expect a couple of bruises here or there, and maybe someone going down on D, but let say we don't suffer any major setbacks !

Knowing this, I would expect our Cats to finish 6th in the Conference, and I'm pretty sure about that I would say 65%... Them being in the top-8 ? About 80%... Missing the playoffs (by a wide margin or not) would be about 20%...

I'm a poker-player and to me that is a pretty good hand I have... And I'm all-in with those Panthers 'cause I've seen my opponents, and I'm not scared !

And by the way, looking around the league... I think we are easily in the top-half concerning the organisation... I would even say top-10 maybe...

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Old
12-15-2009, 01:22 PM
  #92
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I'm not hammering. Excuse me for not labeling him elite. He isn't. Also, if he finishes with 70 points for the next five years I wouldn't consider him elite. Additionally, players can be seen and presumed to be elite at young ages.

The premise has not been debunked at all. We lose last night and we are 29th without even making a move to tank! We get a lottery pick. A lottery pick at the end of the season is more likely than the playoffs.

So what happens when we finish with 89 points and miss the playoffs? How is that any different than finishing with 70 and getting a super prospect? There is no difference.

You've agreed with me before that the only way to get elite talent is through the draft and that's what we need.
it's been debunked because a) it's not going to happen and b) it's just not the time in the cycle; as MR pointed out, if we tank by selling assets, we lose a couple of years. that elite talent - if we're fortunate enough to get it - then steps onto (or is finally ready to contribute to) a roster without the likes of horton and weiss, gone to greener pastures. it just doesn't make sense.

i agree that the best and most cost-effective way is through the draft. i don't think we need an elite scorer to make the playoffs. in another year or two, we may very well have a surplus in goal and/or on the blue line. that's what i would tap into to try to acquire whatever we feel is missing.

we also have a nice situation starting up with rochester now and a good coach there. and we're not forced to play 18 year olds thanks to a deepening pool. i actually believe we could develop a non-lottery pick with the tools into a difference maker. neither this nor the trade route are sure-fire but i think they offer some hope and, realistically speaking, that's the route we're going to take.

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12-15-2009, 01:29 PM
  #93
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It depends on what kind of percentage you want... If you want my estimation of where they will finish with a probability number... Or if you want their chances of finishing in a playoff position... For the second one, I think there is a website on the internet that evaluates those chances on a daily-basis !


Now, if you want my opinion... And I make those believing we have come out of the storm, injury-speaking... I expect a couple of bruises here or there, and maybe someone going down on D, but let say we don't suffer any major setbacks !

Knowing this, I would expect our Cats to finish 6th in the Conference, and I'm pretty sure about that I would say 65%... Them being in the top-8 ? About 80%... Missing the playoffs (by a wide margin or not) would be about 20%...

I'm a poker-player and to me that is a pretty good hand I have... And I'm all-in with those Panthers 'cause I've seen my opponents, and I'm not scared !

And by the way, looking around the league... I think we are easily in the top-half concerning the organisation... I would even say top-10 maybe...
I cannot agree that we have anywhere near 80%. But you're obviously entitled to your opinion.

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12-15-2009, 01:41 PM
  #94
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I cannot agree that we have anywhere near 80%. But you're obviously entitled to your opinion.
As I've said... It is my opinion... If you want a real percentage, you can go on that website... It is pretty accurate if I remember !

You're entilted to yours too... But you didn't come back on our organisation, so I think I may have a point there ?

I'll be proud of being a Panther as long as this team exists ! That doesn't mean I wear pink-colored glasses... I have my opinions and that doesn't mean I'll always be optimistic... I'm not optimistic about Ballard if you ask me !

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12-15-2009, 01:44 PM
  #95
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That is what all team that got the second or third pick will hope. But you might need something, but you should ALWAYS draft the best player available (if its not another goalie). You can trade for a D-man or and top6 forward if that is what you want. So I really can't see the Canes have the chance or the toughness to let Hall or Seguin pass them, there's no chance.
I've been on record for promoting the BPA over the years, and that DOES include goalies. I was just saying that Carolina might like Fowler better, I would have no problems with us drafting Fowler.

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12-15-2009, 01:52 PM
  #96
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While I believe an eye for the future is important to be sure to avoid an Atlanta situation in a push to make the playoffs, Boston also hasn't won the Cup in how long? Kessel is a difference maker and Toronto is decidedly better with him and the picks Boston got will not be as good as they were at the start of the season. Further, picks don't always pan out, often times they don't, and Kessel is a top player.

Sure wish we'd gotten the guy, not saying I'm totally down for that package, but we'd be a lot better with him.
Best way to win a cup is to consistently make the playoffs, which Boston's current management has done. Trading Kessel for above RFA value was great asset management, which allows them the flexibility to either make moves at the deadline or simply restock their farm.

Toronto is the only team that thinks you can rebuild by trading draft picks and adding cap hits.

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12-15-2009, 01:52 PM
  #97
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As I've said... It is my opinion... If you want a real percentage, you can go on that website... It is pretty accurate if I remember !

You're entilted to yours too... But you didn't come back on our organisation, so I think I may have a point there ?

I'll be proud of being a Panther as long as this team exists ! That doesn't mean I wear pink-colored glasses... I have my opinions and that doesn't mean I'll always be optimistic... I'm not optimistic about Ballard if you ask me !
Our organization is better positioned than it was before but I don't think we are that great. Guys like Dadonov, Oreskovitch, McArdle, Ellerby, Garrisson are solid depth guys but not the type of talent to make us a perennial playoff contender. We probably have a gem in Markstrom but young goalies can take a while to adjust to the NHL. Otherwise, with the exception of Repik, we don't really have any top 6 offensive prospects that will produce anytime soon. We are in a solid position but it isn't enviable.

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12-15-2009, 01:58 PM
  #98
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it's been debunked because a) it's not going to happen and b) it's just not the time in the cycle; as MR pointed out, if we tank by selling assets, we lose a couple of years. that elite talent - if we're fortunate enough to get it - then steps onto (or is finally ready to contribute to) a roster without the likes of horton and weiss, gone to greener pastures. it just doesn't make sense.

i agree that the best and most cost-effective way is through the draft. i don't think we need an elite scorer to make the playoffs. in another year or two, we may very well have a surplus in goal and/or on the blue line. that's what i would tap into to try to acquire whatever we feel is missing.

we also have a nice situation starting up with rochester now and a good coach there. and we're not forced to play 18 year olds thanks to a deepening pool. i actually believe we could develop a non-lottery pick with the tools into a difference maker. neither this nor the trade route are sure-fire but i think they offer some hope and, realistically speaking, that's the route we're going to take.
Well, as far as it not going to happen, we could finish in 29th place without trading away anyone. MR made a solid point but I don't think we are going to make the playoffs. If anything, having a super prospect may give Horton and Weiss the desire to stay here. As said before, missing the playoffs by one point and missing it by thirty doesn't make much of a difference except for a pick. Players re-sign on non playoff teams. Plus, if we don't make it wth them then it might be best we change things up anyway.

Rochester is great but kinda irrelevant.

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Old
12-15-2009, 02:32 PM
  #99
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This thread will be funny when we make the playoffs this year.

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12-15-2009, 02:33 PM
  #100
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This thread will be funny when we make the playoffs this year.
I hope we do. But I don't think we will. What percent chance do you think we have of making them?

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