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Old
12-15-2009, 02:34 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Couturier is a great talent, but i've heard that he still needs to improve his skating if he wants to go #1. Larsson should be the undisputed #1 for 2011 right now, but that may well change in the coming 18 months. To be honest, i don't know much about 2011 draft yet. Its supposed to be weaker, but thats purely conjecture at this point in time. I've heard Russia and Sweden are relatively strong, America is at this point looking weaker (especially incomparison to 2010) and it definitely at this point seems a weaker year for Canada (the last two or three have been absurdly good drafts from a Canadian perspective). Again though, pure conjecture at this point (as it is with 2010 i guess).
Yeah, Larsson should be the undisputed #1 right now. He's unbelievable. It only took him like 20 games to break Hedman's mark of points in the SEL as a 16 year old. And he's already as good as Hedman ever was in his own end. Plus he's huge, strong and nasty. He's a freaking monster. Couturier is having a marvelous season for a 16 year old in the Q, but he's not on Larsson's level yet. Though, if Couturier had top end speed, he'd be simply amazing and could challenge Larsson. His skating has improved this season though.

I don't think 2011 is weak, it's just average. We've been spoiled by the 2008-2010 drafts which have all been/will be very strong and deep. There are numerous great prospects for 2011 from all over, it's just not a stacked draft. Doesn't appear that way yet, anyway.

Regarding McFarland which someone asked about earlier, I have him around #15 right now. He's not having a good season.

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12-15-2009, 03:40 PM
  #102
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Our organization is better positioned than it was before but I don't think we are that great. Guys like Dadonov, Oreskovitch, McArdle, Ellerby, Garrisson are solid depth guys but not the type of talent to make us a perennial playoff contender. We probably have a gem in Markstrom but young goalies can take a while to adjust to the NHL. Otherwise, with the exception of Repik, we don't really have any top 6 offensive prospects that will produce anytime soon. We are in a solid position but it isn't enviable.
first, i wouldn't necessarily call those guys *depth*. afaik, ellerby's still considered a potential top pairing guy down the line. dadanov, *if* he develops, could be 2nd line forward. O is a question mark right now but has upside. second, all those guys, in addition to what's at the nhl level *are* enough, imo, if you're talking perennial playoff contender. cup contender? probably not. playoffs? yes.

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12-15-2009, 03:45 PM
  #103
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first, i wouldn't necessarily call those guys *depth*. afaik, ellerby's still considered a potential top pairing guy down the line. dadanov, *if* he develops, could be 2nd line forward. O is a question mark right now but has upside. second, all those guys, in addition to what's at the nhl level *are* enough, imo, if you're talking perennial playoff contender. cup contender? probably not. playoffs? yes.
Ellerby may be a top pairing d-man but it will take a few years. Top pairing rookie d-men are rare.

Dadanov is an IF as you pointed out.

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12-15-2009, 05:35 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Our organization is better positioned than it was before but I don't think we are that great. Guys like Dadonov, Oreskovitch, McArdle, Ellerby, Garrisson are solid depth guys but not the type of talent to make us a perennial playoff contender. We probably have a gem in Markstrom but young goalies can take a while to adjust to the NHL. Otherwise, with the exception of Repik, we don't really have any top 6 offensive prospects that will produce anytime soon. We are in a solid position but it isn't enviable.
Matthias ?

Dadonov can be a legit top-6... We will see... A couple of the guys we drafted this year are pretty good too...

Ellerby will become a top-2 in the Bryan Allen mold, you can count on that !

Detroit won because of Yzerman, Lidstrom and co., but they certainly had help from the Maltbys and others... We have a pretty good mix here !

The real thing that set us back 2 years is the no-Bouwmeester trade !!

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12-15-2009, 05:37 PM
  #105
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Matthias ?

Dadonov can be a legit top-6... We will see... A couple of the guys we drafted this year are pretty good too...

Ellerby will become a top-2 in the Bryan Allen mold, you can count on that !

Detroit won because of Yzerman, Lidstrom and co., but they certainly had help from the Maltbys and others... We have a pretty good mix here !

The real thing that set us back 2 years is the no-Bouwmeester trade !!
Matthias looks like a 3rd line center at best as of now. I haven't seen Dadonov play but I haven't heard much either.

Ellerby may be a top four d-man but that still doesn't make us a perennial playoff team.

Bouw and Roberto trades set us back.

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12-15-2009, 05:47 PM
  #106
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Dadonov isn't lighting up the scoreboard, but he's slowly getting better and better. He's making nice plays and his skill stands out. He's still getting used to the style over here, it's difficult for a small typical style Russian player to adjust to at first. I think he'll be alright. He's a brave little guy and he plays more North American than most Russians. It's just his size that holds him back a little. Give him a couple years and I think he'll be ready to challenge for a spot on the Panthers. His numbers this season aren't going to be that great, but I think as he gets more used to it over here the effort will translate into points. Right now, with all the callups and injuries to Roch. he's a go-to guy for them and that's a good thing in a way.

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12-15-2009, 06:01 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
Matthias looks like a 3rd line center at best as of now. I haven't seen Dadonov play but I haven't heard much either.

Ellerby may be a top four d-man but that still doesn't make us a perennial playoff team.

Bouw and Roberto trades set us back.
Considering what this franchise gave up to get Luongo, you can't use that as an excuse.

The Bouw fiasco - that was a setback. Managment/ownership made a calculation and it backfired. Personally, I blame Bouw more than I do them. He played piss poor hockey after the deadline. Had the team made the playoffs and Bouw left, I think this franchise would be in a much better place. Never underestimate the psychology of sports.

Speaking of psychology in sports, finishing last gets a good young player, but probably sets back Horton, Weiss & company. Worth the tradeoff? Arguable.

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01-14-2010, 10:11 AM
  #108
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This is looking like it could be a legitimate possibility. I hope we are either very very close to a playoff spot or far far away when the trade deadline comes so there will be no room for indecision. I see Atlanta and Ottawa battling us for second to last in the league.

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01-14-2010, 12:54 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by RainingRats View Post
This is looking like it could be a legitimate possibility. I hope we are either very very close to a playoff spot or far far away when the trade deadline comes so there will be no room for indecision. I see Atlanta and Ottawa battling us for second to last in the league.
Agreed, I don't want us to be in no-man's land at the deadline. If we're going to finish low, it would be great for once if we could tank properly and get a bunch of picks and prospects. The worst thing is if we are stuck in the middle and trade some futures and then miss the playoffs, or we stand pat at the deadline and then miss by a couple points.

As far as 2nd last in the league, Atlanta might be a possibility after Kovy is traded, but Ottawa's getting Alfie back soon and then Spezza before the Olympics. I don't think they'll be battling for 2nd last. Our main competition is Toronto(Boston), Edmonton, and Columbus. Edmonton's got the leg up IMO because Bulin is out for weeks with his wonky back. Although the Leafs really do suck, so who knows.

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01-14-2010, 08:41 PM
  #110
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Why do fans of their favourite team, always want to bring out the tank and crash the team? It's a low point of any franchise when they decide to try and lose, and not win. Since everyone was a kid, you play to win the game. Why does it change when you're older. Yes this team might miss the playoffs for an NHL record 10 years, but I would rather have my team competing and scratching for wins, rather, sucking to the extreme to get a good pick. Especially in the nhl where players take a long time to develop. Hall is good and all, but we would have to wait probably 2-3 more seasons to sniff a playoff spot. But whatever floats people boats.....

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01-14-2010, 09:21 PM
  #111
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Why do fans of their favourite team, always want to bring out the tank and crash the team? It's a low point of any franchise when they decide to try and lose, and not win. Since everyone was a kid, you play to win the game. Why does it change when you're older. Yes this team might miss the playoffs for an NHL record 10 years, but I would rather have my team competing and scratching for wins, rather, sucking to the extreme to get a good pick. Especially in the nhl where players take a long time to develop. Hall is good and all, but we would have to wait probably 2-3 more seasons to sniff a playoff spot. But whatever floats people boats.....
Because fans want some hope of things turning around. If we don't make the playoffs, the next best thing is to finish with as high a pick as possible. It's better than just missing and getting another #10-14 pick. Our franchise has been at a low point for a decade, so there's no pride lost on my part. If we start putting some wins together, then the tank talk will disappear. But as long as we hover near the bottom, it will remain, and rightfully so. We've still got a long way to go.

I don't see why we'd have to wait another 2-3 years. What's the difference if we finish with 1st pick or the 14th pick? We still miss the playoffs. It's not like we'd be trading any core pieces away at the deadline.

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01-15-2010, 09:47 AM
  #112
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The clearest tank job in history was back when the Penguins took a clear dive to win the Mario sweepstakes, trading away everyone of value. Didn't hurt them much... but then again there is no Mario in this years draft, so perhaps the notion of tanking really depends on how great that no 1 guy is .... tank for a Lemieux or an Ovechkin -- OK , tank for a Hall ??

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01-15-2010, 09:56 AM
  #113
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Then again, Hall is supposed to be better than Tavarse, and he's supposed to be the Islanders saving grace.

It's like this, We(13th place) are 7 points away from Boston(5th place) and we are
2-0-1 in the last three games. When Booth,Kulikov, and Mcardle come back, if we can find a way to win games and play consistant hockey then we should be in the mix for the playoffs and have no reason to tank, but..... If we still manage to stay in 13th place come the deadline, then I have to agree that we have to have the team tank for the remainder of the season and hope we can draft Hall. Again,most teams have become at least playoff contenders by drafting well and it's time the Panthers followed suit. Yes, we have Markstrom in a few years, and we have Frolik and Ellerby and Kulikov but it's time we draft a top pick.


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01-15-2010, 10:50 AM
  #114
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PMPuck wrote:

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The clearest tank job in history was back when the Penguins took a clear dive to win the Mario sweepstakes, trading away everyone of value.
No doubt about it, which is (yet) another reason to hate the Penguins.

Real hockey teams don't tank. They struggle, they cause us pain, but they don't tank.

I'm reaching deeply into my vocabulary skills here, so bear with me, but tanking is....BAD.

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01-15-2010, 11:16 AM
  #115
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Even if you get the number one pick for three years in a row, theres no guaranty that any of those players are gonna be even close to a Crosby, Malkin, Lemieux, even Lecavalier caliber. Tanking to get picks that might not even turn your franchise around is not wise. Look at Tavares. He's not gonna change the Islanders into a cup team. 3 Tavares wouldn't.

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01-15-2010, 11:18 AM
  #116
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PMPuck wrote:



No doubt about it, which is (yet) another reason to hate the Penguins.

Real hockey teams don't tank. They struggle, they cause us pain, but they don't tank.

I'm reaching deeply into my vocabulary skills here, so bear with me, but tanking is....BAD.
I think everyone can agree...

IF we are more than likely out of the playoff race THEN we trade assets for picks to put this team in the best position for the future and hope we finish as close to 30th as possible.

IF we are more than likely in a strong position to make the playoffs THEN we add to this team to make the playoffs.

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01-15-2010, 11:27 AM
  #117
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I agree with RainingRats. There's a responsibility of ethics to the the fans, the players and to the Game of Hockey itself to show up every night and do your best. How do ya look in the mirror if your gonna show up to the rink knowing your gonna do everything you can to do your worst?

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01-15-2010, 11:42 AM
  #118
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The clearest tank job in history was back when the Penguins took a clear dive to win the Mario sweepstakes, trading away everyone of value. Didn't hurt them much... but then again there is no Mario in this years draft, so perhaps the notion of tanking really depends on how great that no 1 guy is .... tank for a Lemieux or an Ovechkin -- OK , tank for a Hall ??
It doesn't even have to be Lemieux or Ovy, or even Hall. Even if you know you won't get the #1 pick, you still tank, if you are out of it at the deadline. Teams do it every year, and it's the smart thing to do. It doesn't take Ovy or Sid to turn a franchise around quickly. Look what LA has done in a few years, without any megastars. They got Doughty at 2nd overall and now he's a huge part of their defense, and they are probably going to make the playoffs.

There's no reason to NOT tank if you are out of it by the deadline. You're just hurting yourself in the long run.

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01-15-2010, 11:48 AM
  #119
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Then again, Hall is supposed to be better than Tavarse, and he's supposed to be the Islanders saving grace.

It's like this, We(13th place) are 7 points away from Boston(5th place) and we are
2-0-1 in the last three games. When Booth,Kulikov, and Mcardle come back, if we can find a way to win games and play consistant hockey then we should be in the mix for the playoffs and have no reason to tank, but..... If we still manage to stay in 13th place come the deadline, then I have to agree that we have to have the team tank for the remainder of the season and hope we can draft Hall. Again,most teams have become at least playoff contenders by drafting well and it's time the Panthers followed suit. Yes, we have Markstrom in a few years, and we have Frolik and Ellerby and Kulikov but it's time we draft a top pick.
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I think everyone can agree...

IF we are more than likely out of the playoff race THEN we trade assets for picks to put this team in the best position for the future and hope we finish as close to 30th as possible.

IF we are more than likely in a strong position to make the playoffs THEN we add to this team to make the playoffs.
Exactly. How does this not make sense to anyone else?

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01-15-2010, 12:00 PM
  #120
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Exactly. How does this not make sense to anyone else?
Management in the past doesn't seem to understand it. I also think people don't want to intentionally throw away season.

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01-15-2010, 12:17 PM
  #121
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Management in the past doesn't seem to understand it. I also think people don't want to intentionally throw away season.
I don't think it's that they didn't understand it, so much as they failed at doing it properly, mainly in 2001, when we had a lot of good assets to trade and we got back basically nada for them, which set our rebuild back. We did alright from 2002-2004, though we had a very young team so there wasn't much to sell. In 2006, we went on that ridiculous run( I think it's still our best yet of late season runs) so we didn't sell at the deadline if I remember correctly. In 2007, we sold off a couple pieces but they weren't anything of great value, and we held onto a couple more because JM felt we still had a semi-chance at the playoffs. Though, we still did trade Gratton to Tampa for a 2nd in the summer which a year later turned into Markstrom. In 2008 and 2009, we were semi-buyers at the deadline because we were closer than years past to the playoffs.

It's not throwing away a season if the season's already lost. I mean, if you are 10 points out of the playoffs by the deadline, it's over. St. Louis type miracles only come around once every 5 years or so. They only lost like 3 games after the deadline, and had the best record in the league after Jan. 1, there's no way that would happen to us. As it is, we have to go 21-10-5 in the remaining games to get to 93 points, and even that is going to be hard.

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01-15-2010, 01:55 PM
  #122
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You can achieve what LA has done through free Agency. No need to tank. Its not fair to the fans, players, the Game itself. The message alone is poisoning. Besides, the Panthers have a great young core of players already, we just need more free agency to balance things out for our young guys.

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01-15-2010, 01:56 PM
  #123
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You can achieve what LA has done through free Agency. No need to tank. Its not fair to the fans, players, the Game itself. The message alone is poisoning. Besides, the Panthers have a great young core of players already, we just need more free agency to balance things out for our young guys.
Free agency is not the answer. A top draft pick is. Drafting a franchise player has shown to be the best way to turn around a franchise.

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01-15-2010, 02:19 PM
  #124
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Well you don't need to tank a season to get a franchise player. Jokinen was a franchise player, Luongo, too bad we traded them away but the point is we got them through trades. There are many ways to get a team back on track and we are supposed to do all of them. Thats what a good GM does and no good GM tells its team to tank a season so he can do his job.

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01-15-2010, 02:22 PM
  #125
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You can achieve what LA has done through free Agency. No need to tank. Its not fair to the fans, players, the Game itself. The message alone is poisoning. Besides, the Panthers have a great young core of players already, we just need more free agency to balance things out for our young guys.
Really? If that's so, then why didn't LA do it? Or Pittsburgh or Washington(they had money)? You can't build a winner through free agency, with the salary cap that's impossible now. Especially for a team on a budget such as ourselves. You have to build through the draft. I don't know how long you've been a fan of this team, but we've never spent big on free agents and that's not likely to change in the near future. We can't even compliment our core through free agency, not enough to truly make a difference.

Teams tank every year. There's nothing wrong with it. It's positioning yourself to become better faster. If you want to stick with your ethics, then you can happy when we continue to be mediocre year in and year out. I'd rather us tank if we are bad and have a chance of becoming better faster. The fans will appreciate it once we have a winner, and the players know the nature of the business.

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