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Tony Talk - December 15, 2009

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Old
12-16-2009, 02:23 AM
  #1
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Tony Talk - December 15, 2009

http://communities.canada.com/thepro...lk-dec-15.aspx

The Ducks game could see the Canucks looking past to the Capitals. Could be dangerous.

Losing a couple on this home stand could put them in the soup. These home games are crucial.

Mason Raymond - addressed his problems - goes to the net and worked on his shot accuracy. Knows his angles better. Canucks gave him a skills coach. Last night on his goal he took it to the net one step earlier. It was a huge goal. The Kesler/Raymond speed is a complete change-up from the deliberate way the Sedins operate - throws defence off.

We are now seeing the real Kyle Wellwood and he must be replaced.

Scott Niedermayer - age looks to be catching up with him - tough year with the loss of Pronger and Beauchemin and poor goaltending. May be a concern for the Olympics.

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12-16-2009, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
http://communities.canada.com/thepro...lk-dec-15.aspx

The Ducks game could see the Canucks looking past to the Capitals. Could be dangerous.

Losing a couple on this home stand could put them in the soup. These home games are crucial.

Mason Raymond - addressed his problems - goes to the net and worked on his shot accuracy. Knows his angles better. Canucks gave him a skills coach. Last night on his goal he took it to the net one step earlier. It was a huge goal. The Kesler/Raymond speed is a complete change-up from the deliberate way the Sedins operate - throws defence off.

We are now seeing the real Kyle Wellwood and he must be replaced.

Scott Niedermayer - age looks to be catching up with him - tough year with the loss of Pronger and Beauchemin and poor goaltending. May be a concern for the Olympics.
I think the team is well aware of the importance of the homestand for them. They can't get ahead of themselves. Worry about teams in your conference before an Eastern team.

As for Wellwood, Nucks might waive him after Demitra returns. At this point, they are just going to spot him here and there.

Hopefully when Grabner and Demitra return, the team will have 3 good scoring lines.

D Sedin, H Sedin, Burrows
Raymond, Kesler, Grabner
Samualsson, Demitra, Bernier
Glass/Rypien/Johnson/Hansen

Don't play Hordichuck unless you expect to fight.

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12-16-2009, 02:42 AM
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I know they're eh this year, but it would be unforgivable to look past a team with a first line like the Ducks'.

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12-16-2009, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Street Hawk View Post

Don't play Hordichuck unless you expect to fight.
I still fail to see what Hordichuk brings even to the fighting aspect that we don't already get from Rypien and Glass... both those guys have dropped their gloves every time they're asked, and have done well, generating momentum in pretty much every one of their fights. Anyone they can't match-up against, either can Hordichuk.

Hordichuk doesn't bring anything we don't already get from elsewhere in this lineup. Glass has easily taken him over on the depth chart IMO.

Once Demitra is back and if they keep Grabner, you will have to waive 2 forwards... Wellwood and Hordichuk should be the obvious choices.

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12-16-2009, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
I still fail to see what Hordichuk brings even to the fighting aspect that we don't already get from Rypien and Glass... both those guys have dropped their gloves every time they're asked, and have done well, generating momentum in pretty much every one of their fights. Anyone they can't match-up against, either can Hordichuk.

Hordichuk doesn't bring anything we don't already get from elsewhere in this lineup. Glass has easily taken him over on the depth chart IMO.

Once Demitra is back and if they keep Grabner, you will have to waive 2 forwards... Wellwood and Hordichuk should be the obvious choices.
Rypien and Glass aren't going to fight the heavyweight fighters. Hordichuk is willing to go with guys like Parros, Boogaard, Ivanans, McGrattan, etc if he has to. Even if he loses to those guys, he can take a punch from them and keep going. I love Rypien but if he got punched in the face by Boogaard, it might be scary. Hordichuk is a good guy to keep around for games when you really feel like you need him. It's not like he's a worse player than the other goons.

Tony is unaware of last season apparently when Scott Niedermayer was pedestrian for like the first half or longer and the Ducks sucked. They got hot towards the end and made the eighth seed with Nieds playing his best hockey. It looks he's following the same pattern this year.

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12-16-2009, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by passive voice View Post
I know they're eh this year, but it would be unforgivable to look past a team with a first line like the Ducks'.
exactly. I don't see us looking past the Ducks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VanEric View Post
Rypien and Glass aren't going to fight the heavyweight fighters. Hordichuk is willing to go with guys like Parros, Boogaard, Ivanans, McGrattan, etc if he has to. Even if he loses to those guys, he can take a punch from them and keep going. I love Rypien but if he got punched in the face by Boogaard, it might be scary. Hordichuk is a good guy to keep around for games when you really feel like you need him. It's not like he's a worse player than the other goons.
.
if you only need a guy to take a punch from those big guys, throw SOB at them. he's not going to win a fight against any of them, but either is Hordichuck.

in the mean time, just capatiliize on the other teams playing their goons by getting them pinned in their own zone.

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12-16-2009, 04:39 AM
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Can someone remind me why we need someone who can be a punching bag for heavyweights? Why is it important to have someone who can take a punch? There's nobody forcing the Canucks to fight.

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12-16-2009, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by VanEric View Post
Rypien and Glass aren't going to fight the heavyweight fighters. Hordichuk is willing to go with guys like Parros, Boogaard, Ivanans, McGrattan, etc if he has to. Even if he loses to those guys, he can take a punch from them and keep going. I love Rypien but if he got punched in the face by Boogaard, it might be scary. Hordichuk is a good guy to keep around for games when you really feel like you need him. It's not like he's a worse player than the other goons.

Tony is unaware of last season apparently when Scott Niedermayer was pedestrian for like the first half or longer and the Ducks sucked. They got hot towards the end and made the eighth seed with Nieds playing his best hockey. It looks he's following the same pattern this year.
Wh...what? Are we watching the same Rick Rypien here?

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12-16-2009, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
Can someone remind me why we need someone who can be a punching bag for heavyweights? Why is it important to have someone who can take a punch? There's nobody forcing the Canucks to fight.
if you don't fight the goon he runs amok. then whatcha gonna do??

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12-16-2009, 06:18 AM
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Let him run amok and get scored on?

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12-16-2009, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
I still fail to see what Hordichuk brings even to the fighting aspect that we don't already get from Rypien and Glass... both those guys have dropped their gloves every time they're asked, and have done well, generating momentum in pretty much every one of their fights. Anyone they can't match-up against, either can Hordichuk.

Hordichuk doesn't bring anything we don't already get from elsewhere in this lineup. Glass has easily taken him over on the depth chart IMO.

Once Demitra is back and if they keep Grabner, you will have to waive 2 forwards... Wellwood and Hordichuk should be the obvious choices.
This ^^^

I think it's to the point where we know, Gillis and AV know it, Wellwood knows it.. ..it's like after that one night stand where you get her phone number, and while she's writing it down, or typing it into your phone, you know you're not going to call her.. and she knows it.

... it's a lil awkward.

Anyone that suggests that Rypien doesn't fight heavy weights? Ask the three guys 6'5 or over he's fought and won against this year.

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12-16-2009, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by passive voice View Post
I know they're eh this year, but it would be unforgivable to look past a team with a first line like the Ducks'.
I agree. Against this team, I'd like AV to show a lil bit of diversity and reunite the Kesler Burrows line to shut down the Ducks top line.

Bur / Kes / Hansen quell Ducks 1st line

D Sedin, H Sedin, Bernier/Samuelson
Hansen, Kesler, Burrows
Raymond, Wellwood, Bernier/Samuelson
Glass,Johnson,Rypien

Rest of Canucks >>>>> Rest of Ducks

10-0 Canucks


Last edited by Christina Woloski: 12-16-2009 at 10:36 AM.
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12-16-2009, 11:23 AM
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if you don't fight the goon he runs amok. then whatcha gonna do??
this argument keeps coming up, but reality just doesn't support it.

What did Boogaard do when he wanted to fight and no one went with him? same thing he always does - disappear and becomes a worthless plug on the ice.

And with such heavyweights, this makes way more sense than to throw in a guy who could drop his gloves with him, but would get killed in the end... that does not help the momentum of the team at all... walking away though - as we've seen first hand - makes those skill-less enforcers worthless. What bothers me most about this argument though is that we somehow have to cater to the 3-4 teams around the league that have these tough top level enforcers - and for the most part, every one of those teams aren't very good to begin with! We simply don't need Hordichuk to beat Minnesota, Anaheim, Ottawa or Montreal - and really these are the only teams that have an enforcer even worth considering.

I can't think of an example this season when we have needed Hordichuk to answer the call... Rypien goes with anyone, and big or tough, it doesn't seem to matter - he handles his own. If he loses, you can pretty much bet that Horidchuk would lose that fight too. Glass knows how to drop them as well... but what makes him more valuable is that he's *MUCH* smarter than Hordichuk - he picks his battles well, and doesn't hurt the team by taking a bad penalty or starting a fight at the wrong time.

Hordichuk has followed Cowan's path here... once the fighting becomes unnecessary - and it has for him - there's no value he brings to the team. Rypien and Glass have both easily passed him over on this team - and like the 25-27 other teams in the league that don't have that top end enforcer, the Canucks will also just be fine without one. I don't understand the point in keeping a plug like that in the lineup, when the argument seems to be that you need to match-up against those 3-4 enforcers around the league that you end up playing 10 times - and most of those games, those same enforcers have no impact at all anyways, whether Hordichuk is in the lineup or not... just like we've seen with Boogaard. When was the last time he actually had an impact in a Wild-Canuck game?

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12-16-2009, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by alternate View Post
if you don't fight the goon he runs amok. then whatcha gonna do??
Try and score during that 25 second shift.

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12-16-2009, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
this argument keeps coming up, but reality just doesn't support it.

Hordichuk has followed Cowan's path here... once the fighting becomes unnecessary - and it has for him - there's no value he brings to the team. Rypien and Glass have both easily passed him over on this team - and like the 25-27 other teams in the league that don't have that top end enforcer, the Canucks will also just be fine without one. I don't understand the point in keeping a plug like that in the lineup, when the argument seems to be that you need to match-up against those 3-4 enforcers around the league that you end up playing 10 times - and most of those games, those same enforcers have no impact at all anyways, whether Hordichuk is in the lineup or not... just like we've seen with Boogaard. When was the last time he actually had an impact in a Wild-Canuck game?
I think you are right on the mark here. Further, I think guys like Hordichuck and Boogaard need to scrap and agitate in order to get their heads into the game and play more effective. If they haven't got a willing partner, they just drift aimlessly, taking the odd 4th line shift and playing 6 minutes of invisible hockey. When they have a willing opponent, they get more ice time and often play a little bit better.

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12-16-2009, 12:19 PM
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Wh...what? Are we watching the same Rick Rypien here?
He fights big guys but not big fighters. There's a big difference between Boris Valabik and Derek Boogaard.

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12-16-2009, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Dirkph View Post
Wh...what? Are we watching the same Rick Rypien here?
rypien is my favourite middleweight fighter in the entire league

that said, hal gill, zack storini, and boris valabik are 3 of the worst fighters in the league for their size, so victories over them don't transform him into a heavyweight

you still need hordichuk becuase mcgrattan, koci, boogaard, smith, and others are in the division and the majority of teams still employ a heavyweight...as much as i love rypien you don't want him fighting those guys with his history of injuries

plus i don't think that hordichuk is completely useless when he doesn't fight, you need some forwards out there bodychecking besides glass, rypien, kesler, and bernier

if you're going to give a 4th line 3-5 minutes of ice time, i'd argue hordichuk can make a bigger positive impact on the game in those minutes than a smaller skilled player like wellwood, grabner, shirokov, ect.

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12-16-2009, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
rypien is my favourite middleweight fighter in the entire league

that said, hal gill, zack storini, and boris valabik are 3 of the worst fighters in the league for their size, so victories over them don't transform him into a heavyweight

you still need hordichuk becuase mcgrattan, koci, boogaard, smith, and others are in the division and the majority of teams still employ a heavyweight...as much as i love rypien you don't want him fighting those guys with his history of injuries

plus i don't think that hordichuk is completely useless when he doesn't fight, you need some forwards out there bodychecking besides glass, rypien, kesler, and bernier

if you're going to give a 4th line 3-5 minutes of ice time, i'd argue hordichuk can make a bigger positive impact on the game in those minutes than a smaller skilled player like wellwood, grabner, shirokov, ect.
let's break this down, since people don't seem to agree here.

List the teams that have a heavyweight were we *need* Hordichuk in the lineup to match-up against. Not all teams have a heavyweight at all (ie. Detroit), while there are other teams that don't have a heavyweight worth worrying about (ie. Edmonton).

So let's break it down... how many teams in the league really have a player in their lineup where you need a guy like Hordichuk there?

Minnesota has the best heavyweight in the league as well, and haven't been a successful team with that... so I'm wondering what other teams out there require the Canucks to dress a middle-of-the-pack enforcer just so we can keep up with them?

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12-16-2009, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
I think you are right on the mark here. Further, I think guys like Hordichuck and Boogaard need to scrap and agitate in order to get their heads into the game and play more effective. If they haven't got a willing partner, they just drift aimlessly, taking the odd 4th line shift and playing 6 minutes of invisible hockey. When they have a willing opponent, they get more ice time and often play a little bit better.
Not to mention more often than not when you're not dressing a heavyweight the other team will put theirs in the press box.

Rick Rypien has made Hordichuk 100% redundant. Having Hordichuk around to lose to the top 15 fighters in the league is not something worth wasting a roster spot on Not only has Hordichuk proven he can't beat the super heavyweights, he can't beat the Jared Boll's of the world either.

One thing Tony doesn't understand about Wellwood is he's still vastly outperforming Hordichuk and is much better suited to the 3rd line than Rick Rypien. Unless the Canucks go outside the organization there's just no possible way you can replace him. For all the crying that goes on with Kyle he's still eating up his minutes at even strength with good results and the same cannot be said of his possible replacements.

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12-16-2009, 12:38 PM
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i hate the detroit example because they are an exception to the norm based on the amount of talent they have (at least up until this year when they finally got brad may)

edmonton has the worst heavyweight in the league in stortini, but he's at least willing to fight the heavyweights of the world and get killed because he's big enough to stand there and hug

if you go through the western conference, you see heavyweights that play almost every night:

la - ivanins
colorado - koci
chicago - no heavyweight
san jose - staubitz, maclaren, shelley
nashville - belak
calgary - mcgrattan
phoenix - bissonnette
detroit - no heavyweight
dallas - barch
minnesota - smith, boogaard
edmonton - stortini
columbus - boll
blues - janssen, king
anaheim - parros

i see the lesson being if a team has enough talent (washington, chicago, detroit) they can go without a true heavyweight...otherwise most teams need one

if you want rypien to fight all the guys on that list, fine, just don't expect him to be healthy the entire season

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12-16-2009, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
i hate the detroit example because they are an exception to the norm based on the amount of talent they have (at least up until this year when they finally got brad may)

edmonton has the worst heavyweight in the league in stortini, but he's at least willing to fight the heavyweights of the world and get killed because he's big enough to stand there and hug

if you go through the western conference, you see heavyweights that play almost every night:

la - ivanins
colorado - koci
chicago - no heavyweight
san jose - staubitz, maclaren, shelley
nashville - belak
calgary - mcgrattan
phoenix - bissonnette
detroit - no heavyweight
dallas - barch
minnesota - smith, boogaard
edmonton - stortini
columbus - boll
blues - janssen, king
anaheim - parros

i see the lesson being if a team has enough talent (washington, chicago, detroit) they can go without a true heavyweight...otherwise most teams need one

if you want rypien to fight all the guys on that list, fine, just don't expect him to be healthy the entire season
I don't expect Rypien to stay healthy whether he fights or not... but that's besides the point.

now that you've listed the teams, consider where exactly Hordichuk has been of any use to the Canucks.

LA - their last game, Hordichuk was a healthy scratch... despite that, and LA a win away from taking top spot in the conference, the Canucks won - without Hordichuk. What impact did the enforcer on the other team have - NONE! just like every other game where Hordichuk isn't dressed.

Colorado - Hordichuk played in the Nov. 1st game against Colorado... the Canucks won 3-0... then he was a healthy scratch in the Nov. 14th and Nov. 20th game against them... the Canucks won 8-2 and 5-2 respectively - without Hordichuk in the lineup.

Chicago - they have Ben Eager... Hordichuk has had no impact at all in games against them.

San Jose - Hordichuk played in the SJ game this season... played 6 mins, was a -1, and the Canucks lost.

Nashville - Belak... they also have Tootoo... they played them Dec. 8th... Vancouver won, Hordichuk a healthy scratch (against his former team too).

Calgary - we've played them twice this season... lost both games... Hordichuk was playing in both games, and the 2nd game, the Flames 4th line completely embarrassed the Canucks 4th line - on the score-sheet! Hordichuk's impact - negative!

Phoenix - we haven't played Phoenix yet this season... but if we're matching up an enforcer against them to beat them, we have bigger problems with this team!

Detroit - as mentioned heavyweight is not a part of this match-up.

Dallas - played them twice - Hordichuk was in both games... won one, lost one...

Minnesota - with all the talk about their heavyweight, Boogaard hasn't done a damn thing against the Canucks... the Canucks have played them 3 times this year, Hordichuk has played in all 3 games... the Canucks have won all 3 games... Boogaard has been invisible every game.

Edmonton - non-factor... Rypien destroys Stortini every time... but, the Canucks have played Edmonton 3 times... they have won 2 of 3. Hordichuk played in the 2 wins, but as we already know you don't need an enforcer to match-up against Edmonton.

Columbus - we've played them once, lost, and Hordichuk was in the lineup.

Blues - we've played them once this season... got destroyed. Hordichuk was in the lineup - a non-presence as usual.

Anaheim - played them once, got destroyed, Hordichuk did not dress.

So breaking it down, where exactly is Hordichuk helping this team?

out of all the games above, you could say that he could have been helpful in a couple of them... blown out against Anaheim where he didn't play, and the wins against Edmonton where he did play... but just like we know that he isn't needed against Edmonton to get those wins, he presence against the Ducks would likely not have avoided that loss.

So again I ask, what use does Hordichuk have, when you can list the enforcers on every team in the West, and reality shows that the Canucks are just as successful - if not more - even when Hordichuk is a healthy scratch against those teams.

Does he really have any value at all?

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12-16-2009, 01:03 PM
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Somebody should run a stat on how many heavyweights Hordichuk could have fought this year and how many he actually fought.

IMO, the % will be 20% or so. Is he a deterrent? Perhaps.

But a lot of those heavyweights don't really throw their weight around, they just do the staged battles so if there is no foe they probably end up in the press box half the time....

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12-16-2009, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
I don't expect Rypien to stay healthy whether he fights or not... but that's besides the point.

now that you've listed the teams, consider where exactly Hordichuk has been of any use to the Canucks.

LA - their last game, Hordichuk was a healthy scratch... despite that, and LA a win away from taking top spot in the conference, the Canucks won - without Hordichuk. What impact did the enforcer on the other team have - NONE! just like every other game where Hordichuk isn't dressed.

Colorado - Hordichuk played in the Nov. 1st game against Colorado... the Canucks won 3-0... then he was a healthy scratch in the Nov. 14th and Nov. 20th game against them... the Canucks won 8-2 and 5-2 respectively - without Hordichuk in the lineup.

Chicago - they have Ben Eager... Hordichuk has had no impact at all in games against them.

San Jose - Hordichuk played in the SJ game this season... played 6 mins, was a -1, and the Canucks lost.

Nashville - Belak... they also have Tootoo... they played them Dec. 8th... Vancouver won, Hordichuk a healthy scratch (against his former team too).

Calgary - we've played them twice this season... lost both games... Hordichuk was playing in both games, and the 2nd game, the Flames 4th line completely embarrassed the Canucks 4th line - on the score-sheet! Hordichuk's impact - negative!

Phoenix - we haven't played Phoenix yet this season... but if we're matching up an enforcer against them to beat them, we have bigger problems with this team!

Detroit - as mentioned heavyweight is not a part of this match-up.

Dallas - played them twice - Hordichuk was in both games... won one, lost one...

Minnesota - with all the talk about their heavyweight, Boogaard hasn't done a damn thing against the Canucks... the Canucks have played them 3 times this year, Hordichuk has played in all 3 games... the Canucks have won all 3 games... Boogaard has been invisible every game.

Edmonton - non-factor... Rypien destroys Stortini every time... but, the Canucks have played Edmonton 3 times... they have won 2 of 3. Hordichuk played in the 2 wins, but as we already know you don't need an enforcer to match-up against Edmonton.

Columbus - we've played them once, lost, and Hordichuk was in the lineup.

Blues - we've played them once this season... got destroyed. Hordichuk was in the lineup - a non-presence as usual.

Anaheim - played them once, got destroyed, Hordichuk did not dress.

So breaking it down, where exactly is Hordichuk helping this team?

out of all the games above, you could say that he could have been helpful in a couple of them... blown out against Anaheim where he didn't play, and the wins against Edmonton where he did play... but just like we know that he isn't needed against Edmonton to get those wins, he presence against the Ducks would likely not have avoided that loss.

So again I ask, what use does Hordichuk have, when you can list the enforcers on every team in the West, and reality shows that the Canucks are just as successful - if not more - even when Hordichuk is a healthy scratch against those teams.

Does he really have any value at all?
i don't see the logic in a game-on-game analysis because you could pretty much do that with every player on the canucks and get mixed results, especially as most teams' 4th line players on average will be the decisive factor in 0 of that teams' games the entire season

i actually agree that hordichuk hasn't played well this year but i disagree that they no longer need him or another heavyweight to take his place

i also disagree that rypien is a heavyweight able to take on the guys i listed, as good of a fighter as he is...most teams have a heavyweight and a middleweight, the canucks just happen to be fortunate to have the best middleweight in the league

i think alot of fans have to remember two years back to the year before hordichuk was brought in and we had cowan fighting heavyweights...it was embarrassing to watch and most agreed that the canucks needed hordichuk or a player like him on the team

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12-16-2009, 01:13 PM
  #24
Mr. Canucklehead
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The logic that we need Hordichuk because Rypien can't take on heavyweights is redundant because Hordichuk can't either. Who's the last legitimate NHL heavyweight Hordichuk managed to beat in a scrap? He can't tangle with Boogaard, McGrattan, Koci, Scott, Laraques, Godard or any of these guys. So with that intangible out of the equation, who is the better player? The answer by a mile is Rypien, and that is why Hordichuk is redundant.

And no, I don't expect Rypien to fight the super heavies of the league. He is doing just fine as an energy player and scrapper by fighting players who--while decent scrappers or big guys--are not super heavyweight fighters.

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12-16-2009, 01:18 PM
  #25
Jack Tripper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
The logic that we need Hordichuk because Rypien can't take on heavyweights is redundant because Hordichuk can't either. Who's the last legitimate NHL heavyweight Hordichuk managed to beat in a scrap? He can't tangle with Boogaard, McGrattan, Koci, Scott, Laraques, Godard or any of these guys. So with that intangible out of the equation, who is the better player? The answer by a mile is Rypien, and that is why Hordichuk is redundant.

And no, I don't expect Rypien to fight the super heavies of the league. He is doing just fine as an energy player and scrapper by fighting players who--while decent scrappers or big guys--are not super heavyweight fighters.

~Canucklehead~
again, disagree as hordichuk was a top-10 heavy in the league prior to coming to vancouver and was able to fight any and all of the guys listed

it may be a fair question whether he's the fighter he used to be, but he beat parros clean twice last season and beat janssen this season, so i don't think he's washed up yet despite recent losses to mcgrattan, boogaard, and belak

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