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Tony Talk - December 15, 2009

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Old
12-16-2009, 02:39 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
By my count, the only wins against legitimate heavyweights he has on record are multiple scraps with George Parros, who isn't exactly the greatest fighter in the world, Peter Worrell, Mike Brown and Jared Boll.

So which top heavyweight has he tangled with and won against? Really? Because that list of heavyweights he has beaten isn't exactly impressive.

~Canucklehead~
so you did all that research to prove that his records in the past 3 years were 7-1-4, 5-5-3, and 3-1-0, including wins against heavyweights

i have yet to see a result from anybody else on the canucks current roster with a win against a true heavyweight, let alone an actual bout

i'm not sure how the stats you posted help your argument

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12-16-2009, 02:40 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
List the teams that have a heavyweight were we *need* Hordichuk in the lineup to match-up against. Not all teams have a heavyweight at all (ie. Detroit), while there are other teams that don't have a heavyweight worth worrying about (ie. Edmonton).
I don't think Hordy should be considered a heavy weight in the first place. CDC lists him at 206, while listing Glass at 210. and since Hordy can't beat (or even draw against) even the lower end heavyweights, it makes no sense to have him in the line up just to get pummeled.

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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
the logic of game-by-game analysis is that it shows - quite clearly - that you don't need Hordichuk in the lineup against those teams in order to beat those teams... if we don't consider that, what are we basing our opinions on? Doesn't it make sense to base it on how the team overall performs? and if you look at that, it clearly shows that Hordichuk has been a non-factor in this team's success.
hmmm....while I agree with your conclusion (Hordy sucks) the logic you've used to get there is faulty.

look at the Minnesota games....you said we've played them three times, Hordy played in all, Boogaard was a non-factor, therefore showing Hordy was irrelevant. It could just as easily be argued that it was because Hordy was dressed that Boogaard was a non-factor, because we've all seen pre-Hordy days where Boogaard was, indeed, a big factor simply by creating momentum and being too strong on the boards and in the corners and in front of the net.

so, while it's not a position I would take, the fact Boogaard is no longer a factor against us actually supports keeping Hordichuck in the line-up, at least until we play the Wild without Hordy and he is still a non-factor.

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12-16-2009, 02:41 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Neither of those two make enough to generate enough cap space required (as they'll have to be replaced by at least a "minimum wage" player).
They would be replaced by Grabner and Demitra though, not extra players. Since Demitra already counts against the salary cap, ditching Wellwood for him would instantly drop $1.2 million in annual salary off of the team's cap hit which would probably be just enough to get under the upper limit. Grabner and Hordichuk's salaries are almost identical, so that's a lateral move salary wise.

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12-16-2009, 02:43 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
so you did all that research to prove that his records in the past 3 years were 7-1-4, 5-5-3, and 3-1-0, including wins against heavyweights

i have yet to see a result from anybody else on the canucks current roster with a win against a true heavyweight, let alone an actual bout

i'm not sure how the stats you posted help your argument
You're excluding a good chunk of the data. In fairness to my argument, I posted all of the available information so you could see both sides.

The majority of Hordichuk's fighting victories have come against guys who are by no means legitimate heavyweights in the NHL. These are players that could be easily handled by Rick Rypien, Tanner Glass and Co.

The few wins(Seven. In the last 6 years.) he has had are against heavyweights who really were only heavyweights given their size. George Parros, who four of those victories are against, isn't reknowned as a great fighter. That leaves three victories against NHL heavyweights in 6 years. Hardly impressive for our supposed heavyweight fighter.

Again, my feeling is he has been rendered irrelevant by Rypien and Glass. Can they beat the top heavies? No, but the stats say neither can Hordichuk.

~Canucklehead~

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12-16-2009, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by alternate View Post
so, while it's not a position I would take, the fact Boogaard is no longer a factor against us actually supports keeping Hordichuck in the line-up, at least until we play the Wild without Hordy and he is still a non-factor.
Please go watch the Canucks tapes of the last game against Minnesota. Hordichuk draws a penalty against Boogaard which leads to the second Canuck PP goal by Mason Raymond.

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12-16-2009, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
The highest hits per game average on the team?

The third most hits on a pathetically unphysical team?

Edit: But please disregard these facts I've presented twice now to continue arguing with people making silly arguments.
pretty much proves how useless that stat is. be honest, forget the stats and remember the games...does Hordikchuck's hitting stand out to you?

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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
Please go watch the Canucks tapes of the last game against Minnesota. Hordichuk draws a penalty against Boogaard which leads to the second Canuck PP goal by Mason Raymond.
bad call by the ref. Hordy gave Boo a shot first, what's a man supposed to do? a bad call by the ref does not equal a good play by Hordy. that said, he got the call and I'll take it.

but if we're going to boil Hordy's contributions down to subjective calls by the ref that went the wrong way, then goooooooo Hordy!

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12-16-2009, 02:53 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
The highest hits per game average on the team?

The third most hits on a pathetically unphysical team?

Edit: But please disregard these facts I've presented twice now to continue arguing with people making silly arguments.
Didn't you learn anything from last year when the Canucks had the least hits in the NHL and won the NW division? Who did they beat to win it? That's right, your big, bad Calgary Flames.

You win games by outscoring the opposition, not outhitting them. Considering Hordichuk has been on the ice for TWICE AS MANY GOALS AGAINST AS GOALS FOR against by far the easiest competition of any players on the team besides his linemates what does that tell you? He's not getting the job done.

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12-16-2009, 02:54 PM
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I'm amazed at the amount of kvetching that goes on by Canucks fans about guys like Hordichuk, Johnson, Aaron Rome, backup goaltenders, and other very peripheral players. You get what you pay for and you can't pay very much to fill these spots.

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12-16-2009, 02:54 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
You're excluding a good chunk of the data. In fairness to my argument, I posted all of the available information so you could see both sides.

The majority of Hordichuk's fighting victories have come against guys who are by no means legitimate heavyweights in the NHL. These are players that could be easily handled by Rick Rypien, Tanner Glass and Co.

The few wins(Seven. In the last 6 years.) he has had are against heavyweights who really were only heavyweights given their size. George Parros, who four of those victories are against, isn't reknowned as a great fighter. That leaves three victories against NHL heavyweights in 6 years. Hardly impressive for our supposed heavyweight fighter.

Again, my feeling is he has been rendered irrelevant by Rypien and Glass. Can they beat the top heavies? No, but the stats say neither can Hordichuk.

~Canucklehead~
i agree that hordi has not been the heavyweight that i thought he was coming into vancouver, as i thought he was a legit top-10 heavy coming in

now he's a middle-of-the-road heavy, win some/lose some

but i don't know how it's arguable that his fight card stacks up to rypien's, hordi is taking on bigger guys and holding his own, while rypien would be taking punches for alot of those fights and getting injured

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12-16-2009, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by alternate View Post
pretty much proves how useless that stat is. be honest, forget the stats and remember the games...does Hordikchuck's hitting stand out to you?
I don't think the stat is useless, and yes, I do recall Hordichuk running around trying to be physical.
It shouldn't be hard for a fan to recall something when he's one out of 3 forwards doing it.

Here's another assumption of mine- not many Canuck fans would readily dismiss the hit stat if the Canucks were top 10 in that statistic.

Kinda like the loser point. Canuck fans don't talk about it until it bites them in the ass. The years it benefited us no one said a damn thing about it.

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bad call by the ref. Hordy gave Boo a shot first, what's a man supposed to do? a bad call by the ref does not equal a good play by Hordy. that said, he got the call and I'll take it.

but if we're going to boil Hordy's contributions down to subjective calls by the ref that went the wrong way, then goooooooo Hordy!
Wow.. Alright drawing penalties is no longer a skill but rather comes down to the subjectivity of the referee. Excellent argument skills, I must say. Extremely normative, borderline Sophist.

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12-16-2009, 02:57 PM
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I thank you NFITO for adamantly presenting a view most of us possess. Our playoff run should have highlighted the uselessness of our 4th line and Hordichuk. He may have his moments but there is no level of consistency, unless there is consistency in him falling down all the time simply skating. Hawk's 4th line were able to agitate, provide a physical presence and create offensive chances.

One thing i now regret about last year was waiving Brown instead of Hordi... at least Brown can skate and play decent hockey.

Imagine our 4th line as Rypien - Johnson - Brown or getting rid of Johnson... Glass - Rypien - Brown. I see instant improvement.

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12-16-2009, 03:08 PM
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99.9% of the posts here last year were ripping the Canucks for having Mike Brown on the roster.

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12-16-2009, 03:09 PM
  #63
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[QUOTE=LostMyGlasses;22692491]
Quote:
I don't think the stat is useless, and yes, I do recall Hordichuk running around trying to be physical.
It shouldn't be hard for a fan to recall something when he's one out of 3 forwards doing it.

Here's another assumption of mine- not many Canuck fans would readily dismiss the hit stat if the Canucks were top 10 in that statistic.

Kinda like the loser point. Canuck fans don't talk about it until it bites them in the ass. The years it benefited us no one said a damn thing about it.
there's a reason that the NHL no longer keeps "official" hit stats, and Hordy being near the top of our team illustrates why.

don't take me as someone who doesn't appreciate physical hockey--I was one of the few still on the Mike Brown bandwagon last season before he got waived. but Hordichuck's hits are of the "invisible" variety. how many times this year have you said to yourself "great hit, Hordy!" in my case, not enough for him to be at the top of the hits list.


Quote:
Wow.. Alright drawing penalties is no longer a skill but rather comes down to the subjectivity of the referee. Excellent argument skills, I must say. Extremely normative, borderline Sophist.
ooooooooh....aaaaaaaah.....normative and Sophist are fancy words. you must be realliez smart.

how many times do you think that play gets called that way? you skate in from the blueline and give the guy a tap on the chin, and he responds. Nine times out of ten, that play results in both guys going. if Boo hadn't hit Hordy so hard, it wouldn't have been called that way (or if it wasn't Boogaard).

so yeah, good work drawing the penalty. and if Hordy did that consistantly this conversation might not be happening. but this was "luck" (in how the ref called it) not "skill".

so again, the point you attempted to gloss over with your fancy-pants words, if Hordichucks entire contribution comes down to a "lucky" call by the refs--one he won't get 9/10 times, then maybe we should dress players that can actually do something positive every time they are on the ice.

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12-16-2009, 03:13 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by VanEric View Post
99.9% of the posts here last year were ripping the Canucks for having Mike Brown on the roster.
quality post

that's the funny thing about fighters, they're like girlfriends, people complain about them until they don't have them anymore, then they want them back or want a replacement


Last edited by Jack Tripper: 12-16-2009 at 03:15 PM. Reason: additional new thought
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12-16-2009, 03:13 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by alternate View Post

there's a reason that the NHL no longer keeps "official" hit stats, and Hordy being near the top of our team illustrates why.
Then why does nhl.com tabulate hits for individuals and teams?

Quote:




so again, the point you attempted to gloss over with your fancy-pants words, if Hordichucks entire contribution comes down to a "lucky" call by the refs--one he won't get 9/10 times, then maybe we should dress players that can actually do something positive every time they are on the ice.
prove he won't get that call 9/10 times. Hordichuk isn't useless, I proved it using statistics and actual "real world" events. You are using normative, specious reasoning and sophistry to argue your point of view. Seems fairly straight forward to me. If you want me to use smaller words to call out your style of argument, I can google a thesaurus for you.

Statistically, Hordichuk is our leading hitter in terms of hits per game played. He is also top 3 in terms of hitting on a very unphysical team. He has also drawn important penalties which help the Canucks win.

Now. what have you proven other than you think Hordichuk wouldn't get that call 9 times out of 10?

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12-16-2009, 03:15 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
i agree that hordi has not been the heavyweight that i thought he was coming into vancouver, as i thought he was a legit top-10 heavy coming in

now he's a middle-of-the-road heavy, win some/lose some

but i don't know how it's arguable that his fight card stacks up to rypien's, hordi is taking on bigger guys and holding his own, while rypien would be taking punches for alot of those fights and getting injured
That implies that in his losses Hordi is holding his own. While the fights weren't scored, you can track down some of his "super heavy" fights on youtube.(I'm at work, otherwise I'd track some of them down for the purpose of this thread). But Hordi certainly doesn't fare well in scraps against guys like Laraque and Boogaard--much like Rypien or Glass wouldn't. They would get similarly rag dolled.

But the fact is, Rypien and Glass seem to acquit themselves better against guys they should do better against. Hordichuk, you would think, would be able to demolish guys like Prust and Stortini in similar fashions to the much smaller Rypien. Instead, Hordichuk seemed to legitimately struggle against those two--something that is altogether alarming. These are just two recent examples.

I don't think that Hordichuk was ever a "Top 10" Heavyweight, as his fight card certainly doesn't show a whopping amount of victories against the better fighters in the league. And when Hordichuk "brings it down" and fights a non-heavy, he still doesn't do as well as I think your designated tough guy should. Losses to guys like Ryan Hollweg last year are unacceptable, and I don't think it would have happened if it was Rypien in that scrap.

~Canucklehead~

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12-16-2009, 03:26 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
That implies that in his losses Hordi is holding his own. While the fights weren't scored, you can track down some of his "super heavy" fights on youtube.(I'm at work, otherwise I'd track some of them down for the purpose of this thread). But Hordi certainly doesn't fare well in scraps against guys like Laraque and Boogaard--much like Rypien or Glass wouldn't. They would get similarly rag dolled.

But the fact is, Rypien and Glass seem to acquit themselves better against guys they should do better against. Hordichuk, you would think, would be able to demolish guys like Prust and Stortini in similar fashions to the much smaller Rypien. Instead, Hordichuk seemed to legitimately struggle against those two--something that is altogether alarming. These are just two recent examples.

I don't think that Hordichuk was ever a "Top 10" Heavyweight, as his fight card certainly doesn't show a whopping amount of victories against the better fighters in the league. And when Hordichuk "brings it down" and fights a non-heavy, he still doesn't do as well as I think your designated tough guy should. Losses to guys like Ryan Hollweg last year are unacceptable, and I don't think it would have happened if it was Rypien in that scrap.

~Canucklehead~
dunno, just quickly went through hordi's fight card as a canuck on hockeyfights.com, and the only bad losses i could find were against belak, boogaard, and mcgrattan...i also wouldn't say he was rag-dolled against these guys, just loss...orr got ko'd by carkner the other night but i would still consider orr a heavy against these guys

otherwise hordi had draws or narrow wins against roy, peters, neil, boll, janssen, and others

if you are advocating to bring in a better heavyweight then i'm not going to disagree with you, it would be nice to have a guy like orr, thornton, carkner, godard, or brashear that could come in and do the police work with the heavies while taking a regular 4th line shift

however, these guys aren't available so the canucks are going to have to stick with hordi until the off season

and as much as i love rypien, he is a middleweight and it's unfair to ask him to do hordi's job

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12-16-2009, 03:31 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
dunno, just quickly went through hordi's fight card as a canuck on hockeyfights.com, and the only bad losses i could find were against belak, boogaard, and mcgrattan...i also wouldn't say he was rag-dolled against these guys, just loss...orr got ko'd by carkner the other night but i would still consider orr a heavy against these guys

otherwise hordi had draws or narrow wins against roy, peters, neil, boll, janssen, and others

if you are advocating to bring in a better heavyweight then i'm not going to disagree with you, it would be nice to have a guy like orr, thornton, carkner, godard, or brashear that could come in and do the police work with the heavies while taking a regular 4th line shift

however, these guys aren't available so the canucks are going to have to stick with hordi until the off season

and as much as i love rypien, he is a middleweight and it's unfair to ask him to do hordi's job
I'm not opposed to a better heavyweight; but I'm just curious as to whether Hordichuk does a job period. He says his job is to keep the other teams' tough guys honest--but when has he done it, and when is it necessary? When has Hordichuk fought another team's tough guy in response to a cheap/dirty/intimidating play? I can't recall one. All Hordichuk's scraps appear to be pre-agreed upon and simply to spark some play.

Rypien and Glass frequently get into spur of the moment fights and fights that occur after a questionable play involving them or their teammates. I'm not saying Rypien, an agreed upon middleweight, needs to fight the heavyweights of the league. But if Hordichuk is not going, or is going to get wasted anyway if he does, why are we paying him $775,000 a year?

I do not believe we need to have him or replace him. I feel we can legitimately waive him and not need a replacement right away. Would one in the future be good? If we want to take on the Boogaard's and such of the league, a legitimate super heavy would be in order. But unless we have one of those, there is IMO no point in keeping Hordichuk when we have Glass and Rypien who can take on most of the comers.

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12-16-2009, 03:33 PM
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[QUOTE]
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
Then why does nhl.com tabulate hits for individuals and teams?
so you are saying those are 'official' stats, same as shots, face-off wins, or penalty minutes?

Quote:
prove he won't get that call 9/10 times. Hordichuk isn't useless, I proved it using statistics and actual "real world" events. You are using normative, specious reasoning and sophistry to argue your point of view. Seems fairly straight forward to me. If you want me to use smaller words to call out your style of argument, I can google a thesaurus for you.

Statistically, Hordichuk is our leading hitter in terms of hits per game played. He is also top 3 in terms of hitting on a very unphysical team. He has also drawn important penalties which help the Canucks win.

Now. what have you proven other than you think Hordichuk wouldn't get that call 9 times out of 10?
so you're new to watching hockey then?

not too often will a ref let one guy get away with punching another guy in the face in a scrum, and only call the retalliation. that's not to be confused with something that happens behind the play which RESULTS in a scrum, and the ref only sees the retalliation. but this wasn't that situation, Hordichuck skated in and JOINED the scrum.

lets turn the tables...Boo skates in from the blueline to join a melee beside Minnesota's net. he punches Hordy in the face, who punches Boo back. the ref sends only Hordy to the penalty box. are you sitting at home going "sucks we're shorthanded, but DAAAAAMN, that's some sick skillz shown by Boo!'

of course not...you're in the GDT going "BS...what's he supposed to do! Send both or neither...stupid refs!!!!"

we can go back and forth all day with the hit stats. I don't see Hordy throwing many hits...maybe one a game, with the odd exception where he'll have a couple of effective shifts in a game. regardless of the stats, I don't SEE Hordy's hits changing momentum or causing turnovers...probably because I don't see most of the hits he's getting credited for.

But for the drawn penalty...ya I'll take it...but a bad call certainly doesn't equate to "skill" drawing penalties. See Ruuto, Jarko; or Cooke, Turtle for what actual "skill" in drawing penalties looks like. A "one of" (even if your limited hockey viewing doesn't recoginze the play for what it was) does not equal effective play by Hordy.

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12-16-2009, 03:37 PM
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so you are saying those are 'official' stats, same as shots, face-off wins, or penalty minutes?
I am saying that if the NHL did not think they were worthwhile, or that the statistic was easily corrupted, it probably wouldn't bare the cost of tabulating the statistic.


I don't think its a perfect stat, and I do think there is a measure of subjectivity in its tabulation, but it does give a very good general idea of where your team is in terms of physicality.

That said, I would argue many statistics the NHL keeps are probably somewhat corrupted: Mystery second assists, shots, and face off wins all effect NHL.com's stats.

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12-16-2009, 03:38 PM
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I do not believe we need to have him or replace him. I feel we can legitimately waive him and not need a replacement right away. Would one in the future be good? If we want to take on the Boogaard's and such of the league, a legitimate super heavy would be in order. But unless we have one of those, there is IMO no point in keeping Hordichuk when we have Glass and Rypien who can take on most of the comers.

~Canucklehead~
i fear that if the canucks waive him then rypien is going to be forced into fighting more than he has to and will be forced into situations where he has to fight bigger guys all the time

this at a time when rypien is coming into his own as a player and is trying to establish himself as a 4th (or even 3rd) line center

given his injury history and what they're trying to do with him i just feel it would be counterproductive to get rid of hordichuk midway through the season without a replacement

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12-16-2009, 03:42 PM
  #72
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i fear that if the canucks waive him then rypien is going to be forced into fighting more than he has to and will be forced into situations where he has to fight bigger guys all the time

this at a time when rypien is coming into his own as a player and is trying to establish himself as a 4th (or even 3rd) line center

given his injury history and what they're trying to do with him i just feel it would be counterproductive to get rid of hordichuk midway through the season without a replacement
Fair point. I just don't see Rypien or Glass as being forced into fighting against super heavyweights, as we don't have anyone that really does right now.

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12-16-2009, 03:48 PM
  #73
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This has been a interesting discussion, one that I haven't put much thought into until I started reading this thread.

I look at the role of a heavy weight as one that serves as a deterrent for cheap shots against our skilled guys and can answer the bell against the other big guys who may take liberties.

Does Hordi fit this role? I don't think he does as I haven't seen any evidence that shows he can go with the heavy weights. He does act as a deterent to an extent, but I think Rypien does this as well.

I still think the role of the enforcer is needed, I just think if you are going to have one then at least fill the role with a guy who can answer the bell with the best of them. The better the deterrent the better. I recall Naslund saying something about this before he left, but I could be wrong. Something along the lines that having a good enforcer opens up space and makes the other team think twice about taking liberties.

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Old
12-16-2009, 04:30 PM
  #74
Wetcoaster
 
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This debate is going on in Washington where Koci laid out Mike Green with a blatant hit from behind last night. :
http://www.csnwashington.com/pages/l...06&feedID=2995

Bruce Boudreau's take on the hit:
"Please, the guy [Koci] has one goal in six years. He couldn't play in the American League," Boudreau said. "I've faced David Koci a lot. He might be a nice guy -- I have no idea. I'm glad he's making a living. Let's be honest if this was any [other] game he gets on the ice in the first three minutes, gets into his fight and then he sits at the end of the bench, so what good is he?

"I mean, [for] 15 feet he saw Green's No. 52 and it didn't stop him one iota from hitting him in the back and going for his head. I hope they throw the book at him. It was a bush-league hit."


Quote:
Green had stitches above his left eye and it was swollen and several different colors after the game. He said he will probably ride a stationary bike tomorrow instead of practicing, but he hopes to play Friday in Vancouver. Boudreau said he is worried Green's eye will be swollen completely shut tomorrow.
And apparently Koci also injured Shaone Morrison last night:
Quote:
Shaone Morrisonn was also hurt in this game. He played only 19 seconds in the second half of the game. Boudreau said it was another questionable hit by Koci that injured him. He wouldn't say what the body part was that was sore, but Boudreau thinks Morrisonn is "more questionable" than Green for Friday -- though he did point out that Vancouver is Morrisonn's hometown.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblo...-in-caps-rout/

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Old
12-16-2009, 05:07 PM
  #75
Mr. Canucklehead
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I find myself agreeing with Boudreault. In a perfect world, I'd love to see the NHL the way it used to be...where the players who were there to fight and play physical could also play. The days of Probert, Domi, May, Williams, Odjick...those were the glory days. Now we have people like Koci and Boogaard whose sole purpose is to fight, hurt some people and then staple their butt to the bench.

Maybe part of the reason I like Rypien and Glass over Hordichuk...they can actually play the game a little bit.

~Canucklehead~

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