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The one thing that bothers me is the Habs seem so easy to play against

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Old
07-23-2010, 08:15 AM
  #376
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Originally Posted by MSSLYNX View Post
Careful with the ahl roster argument. We missed Markov 35 games, AK 20, Gionta 20 and Mike C. 15. Talkin about impact guys. Other teams had the same handicap: Boston lost Lucic 30 and Savard 40, Pit was without Malkin 10 , Gonchar 20, Devils were hit harder Elias 20, Zubrus 30, Martin 60, Philly lost Gagne 20 and both their goalies for god's sake! Toronto lost many guys 20+.
According to this forum, I coulda sworn Habs were the only team with injuries. What's funny is those other teams could have stood pat and said "last year, we had many injuries, we don't need to make any moves cuz we won't have any injuries next year ". But aggressive organizations are always looking to better their teams. Sometimes they may fail, but the effort is there.

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07-23-2010, 08:21 AM
  #377
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Size may not be the issue, but it's an issue. I don't know how this can be disputed. Robert Lang, although not very physical was instrumental in the habs success when he played here. When he went down we struggled a bit. Size, especially down the middle is a concern. Now if you have smaller guys who are quite feisty it can be overlooked, but we kinda lack in that area too. We were pityful at scoring 5vs5 and got shutout 3 times against a tough Philly defence in the ECF, you don't believe lack of size at least contributed to the difficulties? I think the issue is a bit over blown, but it's a concern imo.
But Markov was injured

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07-23-2010, 10:13 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
But Markov was injured
IT actually plays quite a big role into losing when you're missing your franchise player. Just saying.

Get Pronger out of the Flyers, give us Markov back, and I'm not sure this series would have been that one-sided.

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07-23-2010, 11:10 AM
  #379
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Get Pronger out of the Flyers, give us Markov back, and I'm not sure this series would have been that one-sided.
---
True indeed... but give Philly their number 1 goalie as well!

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07-23-2010, 11:14 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by MSSLYNX View Post
Get Pronger out of the Flyers, give us Markov back, and I'm not sure this series would have been that one-sided.
---
True indeed... but give Philly their number 1 goalie as well!
How the hell is that even an argument? They have no #1 goalie because they CHOSE not to have any.

Seriously, this is as dumb as an argument can be. Especially considering the way Leighton played in that series. I doubt Emery would even have started a single game.

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07-23-2010, 11:14 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by MSSLYNX View Post
Get Pronger out of the Flyers, give us Markov back, and I'm not sure this series would have been that one-sided.
---
True indeed... but give Philly their number 1 goalie as well!
i think you're under estimating the power of a solid defence. If Gorges and Gill didnt put up the performance they did, we woulda never even have gotten past washington. And Halak stood on his head imagine, but without the solid defence that we had, collectively also(or fowards backchecking and hustling like animals) we would have gotten eliminated in 5 against washington.

edit.. its not always just about goaltending.

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07-23-2010, 11:14 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by MSSLYNX View Post
Get Pronger out of the Flyers, give us Markov back, and I'm not sure this series would have been that one-sided.
---
True indeed... but give Philly their number 1 goalie as well!
Who his their number one goalie, Emery?? It's not other team fault if they dont have a legit number one goalie

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07-23-2010, 11:21 AM
  #383
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Emery was. He was a gamble starting the season i'll give you that too but he was 16-11. 905 2.64 before going down. Legit numbers wouldn't you agree? Had to go to Boucher who got an awful 9-18 .899 2.76
Just sayin that Emery's injury did slow them too.
Lucky them they got Leighton who played way over his head 16-5 .920 2.48

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07-23-2010, 12:04 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by MSSLYNX View Post
Emery was. He was a gamble starting the season i'll give you that too but he was 16-11. 905 2.64 before going down. Legit numbers wouldn't you agree? Had to go to Boucher who got an awful 9-18 .899 2.76
Just sayin that Emery's injury did slow them too.
Lucky them they got Leighton who played way over his head 16-5 .920 2.48
I'd love to see emery's numbers had pronger not been there. Take out pronger, add emery and markov and you have yourself a habs vs. chicago stanley cup final.

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07-23-2010, 12:44 PM
  #385
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If Price was actually that good, he wouldn't have lost his 1st spot to Halak to begin with, and he wouldn't have collapsed in such a disastrous way in 2008-2009.
i guess you never watched patrick roy in the eighties lol

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07-23-2010, 05:23 PM
  #386
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Wait, what? Beauchemin said that? Is that a horrible joke or something considering who he plays for? I don't think any team looks forward to playing us. The whole easy to play against thing is so coloured with the fact that when your best players are out of the lineup and you have a new team coming together, obviously you are not going to play your best.

I would not want to play against our full, healthy roster. Getting hit is not everything. If you want to win, then it doesn't matter whether the other team hits the crap out of you or not (also, us not being physical is such bs), other things matter, namely - do you want to play against a team that is much faster than you, that has a great PK, great PP and solid goaltending? That is how we play when we are on our game. I don't understand why people think we sucked last year. We had a rough patch, but overall, close games mostly.

Anyway, whatever, I'm sure after the playoffs people aren't going to take us lightly any more and not just guz of the goaltending. We saw what this team can accomplish in other areas of the game and namely- finding a way to win.

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07-23-2010, 07:00 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by MSSLYNX View Post
I'd like to discuss Travis Moen in particular. What is he? A tough two-way player? No because his PM minutes keep on dropping. No because he doesnt play much in the off. zone (19 points). A fast 3rd liner?

Cant figure him out in fact since the 07 playoffs when he became visible.
Moen has disappointed me a lot since he came. I was one of those that were pretty excited when he came. I thought he was this badass that had played with the Ducks in their Cup run. And like any other guys coming to the Habs for some reason, he became some kitty cat.

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07-23-2010, 07:28 PM
  #388
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And how does it help when guys like Lucic take liberties on guys like Komisarek, even when Laraque is dressed and on the same rink?

Since when does a hard hitting 6'4, +245 pound defensmen need protection? Komi had a verbal war with Lucic that a year old before the fight, Komi had thought before and Lucic is not a heavyweight goon. You talk the talk, you walk the walk, period.

And people wonder why i defend Laraque so much...

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07-23-2010, 07:37 PM
  #389
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There's zero reasons to defend Laraque. The guy was a complete zero. Everyone WISHED he would have been this intimidating presence. He said "Jacques Martin doesn't like fighting, doesn't like the physical play". That might well be but the biggest problem was not because he was too physical, it's because he wasn't physical enough. Did Martin prevent him to hit, to scare the other side?

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07-23-2010, 08:23 PM
  #390
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As long as Cammalleri stays healthy, and plays the way he did last year, we will be in good shape.


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07-23-2010, 08:59 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Moen has disappointed me a lot since he came. I was one of those that were pretty excited when he came. I thought he was this badass that had played with the Ducks in their Cup run. And like any other guys coming to the Habs for some reason, he became some kitty cat.
Moen in Anaheim was a part of a team loaded with toughness. George Parros is the resident tough guy. A team that also, had Pronger, Sutherby, Bertuzzi, May.

Its much different playing how Moen does on a team like that then on a team like Montreal where he is basically the sole type of player playing this style.

Asking one player to account for team toughness is asking way too much.

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07-23-2010, 09:16 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Size may not be the issue, but it's an issue. I don't know how this can be disputed. Robert Lang, although not very physical was instrumental in the habs success when he played here. When he went down we struggled a bit. Size, especially down the middle is a concern. Now if you have smaller guys who are quite feisty it can be overlooked, but we kinda lack in that area too. We were pityful at scoring 5vs5 and got shutout 3 times against a tough Philly defence in the ECF, you don't believe lack of size at least contributed to the difficulties? I think the issue is a bit over blown, but it's a concern imo.
We struggled when Lang went down because Plekanec couldn't buy a point. If he were playing like he did last year or two seasons ago, then Lang's loss would have been much easier to cope with.

Philly was able to shut us down for a simple reason. They realized that if they shut Cammy and Gionta down, the rest would be much easier to deal with. They pretty much did to us what we had done to Pittsburgh and Washington.
If Semin actually produced, we're out of that first round. They weren't getting enough production from their depth.
The same thing happened to us versus Philly.
If Pouliot and A.Ko could have stepped up, then I'm sure they have a harder time beating us. Not to mention having Markov back would certainly have helped us.
I don't think we lost to Philly due to size. Obviously if we had a much bigger forwards, we might have penetrated their defensive group more but that doesn't mean we would have beaten them.
Boston who's big had no problem doing that and went up 3-0 but the ended up losing that series. Many say the injury to Krejci was the key factor.

I'm not saying A.Ko and Pouliot will be monsters for us in the next POs, maybe, maybe not. We won't know until then. They're still relatively young and inexperienced in POs.
Pouliot just went through his first POs. Many players take time before becoming PO performers.
A.Ko although has shown he can produce is as usual streaky. But this is a make or break year for him, and for once he won't have his younger bro distracting him. It's also a contract year. I expect a great season out of him.

So, even though we didn't make any significant changes to our team, I have no reason to think we can't compete versus any other team.
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Originally Posted by MSSLYNX View Post
Careful with the ahl roster argument. We missed Markov 35 games, AK 20, Gionta 20 and Mike C. 15. Talkin about impact guys. Other teams had the same handicap: Boston lost Lucic 30 and Savard 40, Pit was without Malkin 10 , Gonchar 20, Devils were hit harder Elias 20, Zubrus 30, Martin 60, Philly lost Gagne 20 and both their goalies for god's sake! Toronto lost many guys 20+.
The funny thing is, we got further than NJ (disappointed 1st round exit), we beat the SC Champs (disappointed 2nd round exit), got further than Boston as well (extremely disappointing defeat in POs) and Toronto was so bad they finished last but couldn't even take advantage of that because they traded their pick.
But what you also failed to acknowledge is that every team you mentioned except NJ suffered from those injuries.
Boston finished 6th, Philly decided their PO birth on the last game of the POs in a freaking shootout with Boucher in nets, Toronto finished last.
You could have mentioned Detroit that suffered about the same amount of injuries as we did and had trouble securing a PO spot until everyone came back.

Boston took a sidestep during the summer by trading for a top 6 in Horton, while giving their 2nd Dman in Wideman. Seguin is a good addition, but it's not even sure if he'll even play for the big club next year.
Philly thought that their most important move was to sign other tough guys and forgot to sign a decent goalie. If their SC appearance wasn't an indication enough that all they needed to win was a better goalie, than I don't know what is.
NJ is trying to re-sign Kovalchuk. If they don't then they lost some good pieces for nothing, if they do, then they'll have to trade away someone to clear space. They replaced their best Dman, a good puck moving one, by a stay at home physical one. This team always counted on solid Defense which helped Brodeur a lot (as it would for any goalie), but now their defense might be considered their weak spot.
Pittsburgh let go Gonchar but signed Martin/Michalek. We showed them that if you shut down Crosby/Malkin, even the 8th seeded team can knock them out. Their wingers are still extremely weak and that wasn't addressed.

But people over here whine because we didn't make changes like sign a guy on the open market that would eat up half of our cap and then force us to make another trade (Plek signing leading to Halak trade).

Injuries are in direct correlation with the Standings. Exceptions may happen, but when you have a team that suffers as many injuries as we did, their record at the end of the year will be affected.
I'm not saying injuries are not going to happen next season, chances are more will.
I have a problem with people saying we're just a PO cringe team because that's what we were last year and didn't make any significant changes over the summer.
There's a big number of reasons why we finished 8th last season, it certainly wasn't our best potential, not even close to it. Just the fact the players don't have to adapt to one another as they did last year makes us a little better. So, I'm not worried about this upcoming season.

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07-23-2010, 09:57 PM
  #393
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Moen had his second best season in carreer.
Granted he did get some time with top-6 (3.83%+3.5%+1.36%+1.06%+0.96%).
His SH was really appreciated.

I guess your expectations were too high.

I think we will be a true contender when Moen will stay as a bottom-6 and play significant SH time.
I see him as a veteran fourth liner with very good SH time.
My expectations were also high but not as much about his offensive production. I saw Moen as the type of player who would hit anything that moves; gritty, tough yet disciplined. I thought he started pretty well. But he quickly vanished. If he doesn't do any better next season, I would consider this hiring as a fail. And let's not compare his salary/contribution to Laraque. If we were to do so, we would never expect much from a $1.5M forward.

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07-23-2010, 10:57 PM
  #394
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My expectations were also high but not as much about his offensive production. I saw Moen as the type of player who would hit anything that moves; gritty, tough yet disciplined. I thought he started pretty well. But he quickly vanished. If he doesn't do any better next season, I would consider this hiring as a fail. And let's not compare his salary/contribution to Laraque. If we were to do so, we would never expect much from a $1.5M forward.
You described Moen however the reason he vanished is because he was put into an ill advised offensive role. He was Montreal's main enforcer in which thats not really who he is either. Forced to answer the bell when anything even remotely dirty happened. Being the sole physical presence takes a quick toll and then you add the receiving end of it because of the game he plays. Sick of seeing guys small soft skill players playing on fourth lines. Get some true fourth line players instead of just throwing your left overs on the bottom line.

Also, in Anaheim he was mainly a fourth liner with spot duty as a third liner. In Montreal he is a third liner with spot top line duty. He is being completely misused in Montreal and has no support in the game he plays. He isn't the fail, it will be managements failure to properly put players in roles they should be playing.

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07-23-2010, 11:28 PM
  #395
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Also, in Anaheim he was mainly a fourth liner with spot duty as a third liner. In Montreal he is a third liner with spot top line duty. He is being completely misused in Montreal and has no support in the game he plays. He isn't the fail, it will be managements failure to properly put players in roles they should be playing.
OK, then as I suspected, Moen is overpaid. Run of the mill 4th liners shouldn't be making $1.5M

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07-24-2010, 01:23 AM
  #396
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Just came in to see if I was on JayBee's ignore list.

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07-24-2010, 04:16 AM
  #397
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Size isn't the matter, it's about playing physical.

Take a look at the top 20 hitters from 09-10 season.

#1 Clutterbuck 5"11
#2 Brown 6'0"
#3 Callahan 5'11"
#4 Backes 6'3"
#5 Ott 6'0"
#6 Neil 6'1"
#7 Morrow 6'0"
#8 Nichol 5'9"
#9 Byfuglien 6'4"
#10 Fisher 6'1"


Those are the top 10 forwards in the hit department. Aside from two players all are in the 6'0" range, give or take an inch. Not much different than the players we always mention as too small.

Size has nothing to do with it, it's all the style of play, and willingness to hit.
I'm tired of reading threads where people are whining about how "small" our team is, and then listing the heights as proof. Our problem isn't being too small, it's being too soft.

Guys like Ryan White are the kind we need in our bottom 6 to play physical on the other teams defense and wear them down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sSNhLukddg


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07-24-2010, 04:40 AM
  #398
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Moen in Anaheim was a part of a team loaded with toughness. George Parros is the resident tough guy. A team that also, had Pronger, Sutherby, Bertuzzi, May.

Its much different playing how Moen does on a team like that then on a team like Montreal where he is basically the sole type of player playing this style.

Asking one player to account for team toughness is asking way too much.
That's a pretty good point. But this sort of thing seem to happen more often than not with the Habs. It's like they get a supposed tough guy and then the guy look around and say to himself "OMG i'm alone!" and become a kitty. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Komisarek felt he was not protected enough in Montreal. Going to Toronto with Burke's philosophy he knew he would never have the same problem he accountered against the Bruins with Lucic.

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07-24-2010, 04:47 AM
  #399
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Originally Posted by MacKmtl View Post
Size isn't the matter, it's about playing physical.

Take a look at the top 20 hitters from 09-10 season.

#1 Clutterbuck 5"11
#2 Brown 6'0"
#3 Callahan 5'11"
#4 Backes 6'3"
#5 Ott 6'0"
#6 Neil 6'1"
#7 Morrow 6'0"
#8 Nichol 5'9"
#9 Byfuglien 6'4"
#10 Fisher 6'1"


Those are the top 10 forwards in the hit department. Aside from two players all are in the 6'0" range, give or take an inch. Not much different than the players we always mention as too small.

Size has nothing to do with it, it's all the style of play, and willingness to hit.
I'm tired of reading threads where people are whining about how "small" our team is, and then listing the heights as proof. Our problem isn't being too small, it's being too soft.

Guys like Ryan White are the kind we need in our bottom 6 to play physical on the other teams defense and wear them down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sSNhLukddg
I would rather have guys that intimidate on the fourth line. White can be physical but I don't think it affect much in the game because his lack of size make him not very scary to the opposition. And he's not very nasty. Take Nichol for example, that guy is a vicious s.o.b.

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07-24-2010, 11:44 AM
  #400
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Originally Posted by MSSLYNX View Post
Emery was. He was a gamble starting the season i'll give you that too but he was 16-11. 905 2.64 before going down. Legit numbers wouldn't you agree? Had to go to Boucher who got an awful 9-18 .899 2.76
Just sayin that Emery's injury did slow them too.
Lucky them they got Leighton who played way over his head 16-5 .920 2.48
So you're saying that if Emery was back, someone that has much weaker stats than Leighton, they would have been better??..Is that really what you're trying to argue??..The stats are there to counter that.
Philly chose to have average goaltending, they've been like that since Hextall. Their average goaltending was clearly exposed during POs but they still chose to deny it and decided to sign players like Shelley instead.

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