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The one thing that bothers me is the Habs seem so easy to play against

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Old
12-17-2009, 09:49 AM
  #51
BadHabit
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
This has nothing to do with size. I find it exceedingly amusing that lack of size is a problem at forward but somehow having too much is a problem on defense.
It actually does and I find it amusing that you can't figure out why that statement is true.

We're not talking in black and white here, you need a mixture of both on a team to be successful. Where that statement makes sense is if you have a majority of small forwards, ie, ones that get bumped off the puck in the corners. That is an issue. You need to have some larger players that can grind in the corners and get it to the smaller, faster, more talented guys. One of the reasons Kovalev is such a beast along the boards was not just because of his talent, but because he's not 5'8" and 180 pounds.

As for defense, you need some larger guys but they also have to be mobile too! You can't have 6 Hal Gills on a team and expect to be great defensively. Again, it's a mixture that is required... someone that can grind along the boards and be physical, and someone that with their speed can cover your butt if you're caught out of position, and someone with hands/skills that can make a good breakout pass. Take the Markov/Komi pairing... that's a perfect example.

You'll NEVER find a cup winner where the entire team is massive or tiny. Go ahead and try... everyone plays a role and that's why it's called a team game. Too much of one or the other and you become weak in areas, like along the boards or footspeed.

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Old
12-17-2009, 09:54 AM
  #52
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Devils played the worst game of the season and we can't beat them.

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Old
12-17-2009, 10:02 AM
  #53
MathMan
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
And if you do put 6 forwards under 6 feet, you better compensate with speed & skill. You see this team beating anybody with speed & skill?
No. They could try, but the coach doesn't like that. Too risky. Better to safely backcheck and collapse around the net, clear the puck to center and go chance. A transition pass might occasionally cause a turnover and we don't want that.

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Old
12-17-2009, 10:05 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by David View Post
Clearly, you grasp the concept of 'All things being equal'...
Wait wait wait.

Okay. Gionta goes from 5'7" to 6'5", but he keeps the same mass?

6'5", 175 pounds?

Really?

Actually if that's what you mean... somehow I don't think that guy would make a very effective hockey player.

And I'm the one who's supposed to be saying silly things?

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Old
12-17-2009, 10:07 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ReVeuF View Post
Devils played the worst game of the season and we can't beat them.
We're not trying to win games. We're trying not to lose them too badly and hoping that might make us win from time to time if the other goalie sucks.

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12-17-2009, 10:11 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MB91 View Post
Thank you. I think the size queens are ridiculous, but I was getting way too annoyed to put together any kind of response. SIZE DOES NOT MATTER, SKILL ****ING DOES! The Habs have Gionta as one of their top wingers and yet teams like Jersey can easily replace him from within. You don't think that has to do with the Habs losing? There's a lack of skill on this team, and our crappy puckmovers in Mara, Gill, O'Byrne and co. sure don't help.
And u call urself a hockey fan loll

Mara and Gill were picked up to clear the net infront of Price OB's job is the same

Markov Hammer Spacek and maybe even MAB are our puckmovers
keep watching hockey tho maybe one day ull find the difference between a defensive dman and a offensive dman

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Old
12-17-2009, 10:17 AM
  #57
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
It actually does and I find it amusing that you can't figure out why that statement is true.
It's as true as saying Tanking will bring us a cup.

Sure, having bigger mobile players might help but it doesn't mean we'd be any better.

Size is overrated and I haven't seen us be pushed around once this year. Most of the games we lose, are by a 1goal margin. So, it's not like we've been manhandled throughout the season.

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Old
12-17-2009, 10:24 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by PATCHESx67 View Post
And u call urself a hockey fan loll

Mara and Gill were picked up to clear the net infront of Price OB's job is the same

Markov Hammer Spacek and maybe even MAB are our puckmovers
keep watching hockey tho maybe one day ull find the difference between a defensive dman and a offensive dman
Hamrlik and Spacek are big. Mara's gritty, but not terribly effective.

There is such a thing as a two-way defenseman or all-around defenseman. I'm happy that you feel the need to talk down to other fans, but your line of thinking is fundamentally flawed: every player in the league must be multi-dimensional in order to be useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
We're not trying to win games. We're trying not to lose them too badly and hoping that might make us win from time to time if the other goalie sucks.
You've become so bitter after all the optimism in the offseason!


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 12-17-2009 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Merge
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Old
12-17-2009, 10:34 AM
  #59
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The way we play only the Hurricanes can't catch us, the Leafs win next game and they catch us, remember the winless streak they got at the beginning of the season ?

2nd pick overall is still a possibility...

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Old
12-17-2009, 10:36 AM
  #60
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Maybe what Bauchemin said was not that far off base. The habs don't hate, they don't out-skate, they don't out-muscle you. They take weak shots, they take a lot of penalties, rarely is anyone in front of the net.

Teams used to hate to play the habs...now I think they look forward to playing them.

Playing the habs now is a walk in the park.

I hope this changes. I don't know where to start though. New players, new coach, same result.
I wouldn't say beating a team by one goal is an easy game, we beat ourselves by not scoring more and being more disapline.

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Old
12-17-2009, 10:48 AM
  #61
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Our problem is Jacques Martin's trap. We can't put pressure if we're always dumping the puck. Our players aren't big enough to get out of the corner with the puck anyways, so why not do what's worked best for us and play some offensive hockey.

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:01 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
It's as true as saying Tanking will bring us a cup.

Sure, having bigger mobile players might help but it doesn't mean we'd be any better.

Size is overrated and I haven't seen us be pushed around once this year. Most of the games we lose, are by a 1goal margin. So, it's not like we've been manhandled throughout the season.
Apparently you never watched while the 1st line was actually together - Gomez Gionta and Camms. They got outmuscled along the boards many times.

It's a long season bro - if you don't think size matters at all check back at game 82 and lets see how their bodies are holding up. Hopefully ok, but I'm not convinced.

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:04 AM
  #63
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by RonFournier View Post
Our problem is Jacques Martin's trap. We can't put pressure if we're always dumping the puck. Our players aren't big enough to get out of the corner with the puck anyways, so why not do what's worked best for us and play some offensive hockey.
Martin wants a puck possession team on offense. The problem is that outside our first line, nobody can do that.

Gomez can bring it in, but there's simply no finish on that line.

The trap is a defense strategy, not offense one. You might say it makes for a passive offensive game because you want to trap the players in the neutral zone and catch them making a mistake off the rush, but once there's a turnaround the trap is done.

Right now, the lack of secondary scoring is a huge problem.
The fact we've been without Markov for the entire season is certainly very far from helping as well.
Add Mara and now Hamrlik to that list.

Based from their play, you can also doubt that Spacek and Gomez are even remotely close to being 100%.

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:11 AM
  #64
onice
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Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
It actually does and I find it amusing that you can't figure out why that statement is true.

We're not talking in black and white here, you need a mixture of both on a team to be successful. Where that statement makes sense is if you have a majority of small forwards, ie, ones that get bumped off the puck in the corners. That is an issue. You need to have some larger players that can grind in the corners and get it to the smaller, faster, more talented guys. One of the reasons Kovalev is such a beast along the boards was not just because of his talent, but because he's not 5'8" and 180 pounds.

As for defense, you need some larger guys but they also have to be mobile too! You can't have 6 Hal Gills on a team and expect to be great defensively. Again, it's a mixture that is required... someone that can grind along the boards and be physical, and someone that with their speed can cover your butt if you're caught out of position, and someone with hands/skills that can make a good breakout pass. Take the Markov/Komi pairing... that's a perfect example.

You'll NEVER find a cup winner where the entire team is massive or tiny. Go ahead and try... everyone plays a role and that's why it's called a team game. Too much of one or the other and you become weak in areas, like along the boards or footspeed.
Great post. I've been trying to say this since July and haven't been able to express it as clearly and succinctly as you did.

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:16 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
No. They could try, but the coach doesn't like that. Too risky. Better to safely backcheck and collapse around the net, clear the puck to center and go chance. A transition pass might occasionally cause a turnover and we don't want that.
C'mon, Math Man take an honest look at this team. It is seriously handicapped by it's lack of size and that is not compensated by any extraordinary speed or skill. Even if Jacques would set these players free, they haven't got the skill or speed at the level needed to compensate for their lack of size.

When it comes to size & grit they're bottom feeders.
When it comes to speed & skill they're in the middle of the pack at best.

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:17 AM
  #66
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
Apparently you never watched while the 1st line was actually together - Gomez Gionta and Camms. They got outmuscled along the boards many times.

It's a long season bro - if you don't think size matters at all check back at game 82 and lets see how their bodies are holding up. Hopefully ok, but I'm not convinced.
They were also our only productive line and a very good one at it.

So, maybe you're the one that has a defected memory.

Size matters very little and Gionta is always battling hard in corners or in front of the net. He has little problem coming out of those battles with the puck.

After 82Games, big, small, humongous, midget, every single player in the league will be bruised up.


This theory that size=stronger, more resistant, more powerful, better is a very false assumption. It's like thinking slim=weak. It's simply not true.

Like I said, having bigger mobile players might help. Having another forward like A.K that is heavier, agile and will go in front of the net may be good. But it will come with his set of flaws.

The idea was to surround Gomez-Gionta-Cammy with bigger players. They wanted A.Kost on one line and right now it's clearly working.
On the other, they wanted Latendresse to clinch that spot. Sadly, he wasn't able too. They tried putting MaxPac there, but that was a short experience.

So, yes, balance is needed on top6. Gomez has struggled, but it's not because of his size. Cammy is playing great and Gionta was doing well before getting a shot on the foot. Plekanec is on pace for his best season.
Maybe your argument would be stronger if the players concerned were poorly performing and were getting intimidated, but sadly that's not the case (except for Gomez, but it's not relevant to size)

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:20 AM
  #67
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THE LACK OF SIZE UP-FRONT IS KILLING THIS TEAM. They can't win board battles on a consistent basis.

Plekanec, Cammy, Gomez keep losing board battles!! The golden boy, Plekanec, has this signature move of chipping the puck out in the neutral zone to start a rush (hence the 2 on 1's), but he and Cammy still get out-muscled a lot for pucks in the offensive zone. Hence, they never cycle in the offensive zone (big teams like Anaheim like to cycle)..or really create any sustained pressure on the opposition. This was very noticeable against Atlanta with their huge d-men. And this is also why we get out-shot a lot, because we don't have the puck much!!

Bob needs to trade for a Eric Fehr/Brooks Laich type of guy, it will help us with board battles and they can screen the goaltender well.

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:21 AM
  #68
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
C'mon, Math Man take an honest look at this team. It is seriously handicapped by it's INJURIES
Fixed.

Gionta was on pace for 35G.
Cammy, 40+.
Plekanec about 1pt/GP, would be career year.
Gomez, underperforming as he's done for the past 2years.


I can't understand how some people just can't point out the obvious problems with Habs.
Bad luck with injuries has completely crippled our defense from day 1.
With Gionta out, we have no goal scorer capable to provide secondary scoring.


You're right, the problem is size.

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:23 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by eightyseven View Post
THE LACK OF SIZE UP-FRONT IS KILLING THIS TEAM. They can't win board battles on a consistent basis.

Plekanec, Cammy, Gomez keep losing board battles!! The golden boy, Plekanec, has this signature move of chipping the puck out in the neutral zone to start a rush (hence the 2 on 1's), but he and Cammy still get out-muscled a lot for pucks in the offensive zone. This was very noticeable against Atlanta with their huge d-men.

Bob needs to trade for a Eric Fehr/Brooks Laich type of guy, it will help us with board battles and they can screen the goaltender well.
Well he did sign Moen who does that, but we need another 1 or 2 big bodies up front who will pay the price and go hard to the net and come out of 1 on 1 battles with the puck

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12-17-2009, 11:26 AM
  #70
onice
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Fixed.

Gionta was on pace for 35G.
Cammy, 40+.
Plekanec about 1pt/GP, would be career year.
Gomez, underperforming as he's done for the past 2years.


I can't understand how some people just can't point out the obvious problems with Habs.
Bad luck with injuries has completely crippled our defense from day 1.
With Gionta out, we have no goal scorer capable to provide secondary scoring.


You're right, the problem is size.
Yeah, that's it. Injuries. Apparently, we're the only team that has suffered injuries. As for your projection of Gionta's stats when he got hurt he was slumping. If he had continued playing chances were just as likely he would not have had those numbers.

Anyway the remaining two players will be back soon. I'd like to know what excuses you're gonna make when Markov & Gio are back and we're still losing.

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:30 AM
  #71
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We need dirty players, that's it. Dirty ******** who will scare the **** out of other players. I'd wish we got penalized for assault, boarding, cross-checking than anything else.

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Old
12-17-2009, 11:31 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
It's embarrassing because it's the same old story.

Montreal Canadiens = small, fast skating, skilled forwards = good at home on a Saturday night against the Islanders.... but bad on the road, bad against big physical teams and bad in the playoffs.

Tired of this teams identity.
have u seen this team in the playoffs?

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Old
12-17-2009, 12:00 PM
  #73
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this thread sums up the habs in a nutshell.i for one do not see them coming out of this cycle of mediocrity until they clean house and start over.they need to rebuld through the draft cause free agency is not the answer.and they need high picks for at least 2-3 years in a row.lets start this year and dump players and salaries for picks and finish near the bottom this year.

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12-17-2009, 12:19 PM
  #74
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We need dirty players, that's it. Dirty ******** who will scare the **** out of other players. I'd wish we got penalized for assault, boarding, cross-checking than anything else.
While I agree terrorizing opposing teams would be good, we really don't need more penalties at the time

Quote:
Originally Posted by fergiesbeak
this thread sums up the habs in a nutshell.i for one do not see them coming out of this cycle of mediocrity until they clean house and start over.they need to rebuld through the draft cause free agency is not the answer.and they need high picks for at least 2-3 years in a row.lets start this year and dump players and salaries for picks and finish near the bottom this year.
You have not seen the 09-10 Habs once this year, how can we give up on it already? This team misses their best player and coincidently the one who would be the most useful on the ice, providing skill at the blueline. This is what we need, more so than tall players.

I'm tired of player height being seen as a huge factor, a lot of tall players are not strong or physical. I'm pretty sure Andrei (6'0" "midget" ) is stronger than most of the guys who are taller.

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Old
12-17-2009, 12:57 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Size is overrated and I haven't seen us be pushed around once this year. Most of the games we lose, are by a 1goal margin. So, it's not like we've been manhandled throughout the season.
I was at the Bell Centre for two games earlier this season where it was pretty obvious that the Habs were physically intimidated...the Saturday night game vs. Tampa Bay and the second game against Calgary. They barely showed up against the Bolts, and while they played a good game against the Flames it was clear they couldn't handle Calgary's physicality.

Those are two examples of what I have witnessed live.

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