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The one thing that bothers me is the Habs seem so easy to play against

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Old
12-17-2009, 02:26 PM
  #76
Bitterman
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The Buffalo top 6 isn't big either but they manage to do quite well. Vanek has size but he never uses it so the difference for me is the team speed of Buffalo and that was clearly evident each time we played them. Speed draws penalties and speed doesn't slump.

Our small guys have heart and overall far more heart than the players they replaced but instead of playing a passive style they should be attacking more to draw more penalties. Markov will surely help with the breakout as will Subban when he gets the call sometime later in the season.

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12-17-2009, 02:54 PM
  #77
MathMan
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
You've become so bitter after all the optimism in the offseason!
Oh no argument there, I'm sorely, sorely disappointed. I was a big believer in the Martin hire. And I still have the nagging feeling that despite it all the team should be better.

But I'm giving it until at least some time after Markov comes back, to see if he makes a difference. If the problem is lack of ability, then Markov should at least generate some transition when he's on the ice. If the problem is strategic then Markov will be rendered ineffectual. Or his return may induce the coach into changing the strategy.

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12-17-2009, 02:56 PM
  #78
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C'mon, Math Man take an honest look at this team. It is seriously handicapped by it's lack of size and that is not compensated by any extraordinary speed or skill.
They have speed. Gomez and Plekanec are very fast skaters. The Habs were reputed to be a fast team and they replaced their top forwards with even faster guys. The problem ain't lack of foot speed, and not so much lack of skill either.

They are a fast team. But they won't use it. They'd rather collapse around their goalie and play passive. They used to at the beginning of the season and they would actually outplay and outshoot teams and play in their zone and when they would lose it would be because the other goalie saved .950 and their own saved .850. Then Martin drummed it out of them and now they suck. Now they're the ones praying for the other goalie to have an off night.

This is not, primarily, a roster problem. The roster isn't perfect, but it's not a sub-80 point team either.

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12-17-2009, 03:24 PM
  #79
HarlemsFinest
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the players should secretly get together to make their own system (at least a line of guys) and do their own plays. after they keep scoring, what would martin do? yell at them for being good?

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12-17-2009, 03:37 PM
  #80
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the players should secretly get together to make their own system (at least a line of guys) and do their own plays. after they keep scoring, what would martin do? yell at them for being good?
lol, this made me laugh, can you imagine? "Tomas that was a sick feed to Andrei, Andrei, great drop pass to Cammy, Mike sweet top shelf goal, never do that again!"

Makes you wonder if players start doing this when they tune their coach out. Wouldn't be surprised if it happened last year with Carbo.

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12-17-2009, 03:44 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by 11Goat11 View Post
lol, this made me laugh, can you imagine? "Tomas that was a sick feed to Andrei, Andrei, great drop pass to Cammy, Mike sweet top shelf goal, never do that again!"

Makes you wonder if players start doing this when they tune their coach out. Wouldn't be surprised if it happened last year with Carbo.
Yeah, they're called Alexei Kovalev.

I think we need to get bigger. Detroit played puck possession and had small D that could move the puck, but their forwards always had some size all the way through their lines. That's often overlooked. You need size to get the possession time, not just skill.

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12-17-2009, 04:19 PM
  #82
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it just seems that the system doesn't use the one thing we really do have, speed. martin shouldn't try to nazi (verb) his ideals into to everyone, but should adapt his system to conform to the speedy smurfs that we do have.

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12-17-2009, 04:24 PM
  #83
Mike8
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Oh no argument there, I'm sorely, sorely disappointed. I was a big believer in the Martin hire. And I still have the nagging feeling that despite it all the team should be better.

But I'm giving it until at least some time after Markov comes back, to see if he makes a difference. If the problem is lack of ability, then Markov should at least generate some transition when he's on the ice. If the problem is strategic then Markov will be rendered ineffectual. Or his return may induce the coach into changing the strategy.
I don't think you're giving it time. You've been patrolling the boards, adding fuel to the fire whenever possible to bash Martin. It's almost as though you've targeted Martin to burden the blame for your sore disappointment.

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12-17-2009, 04:28 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
Yeah, they're called Alexei Kovalev.

I think we need to get bigger. Detroit played puck possession and had small D that could move the puck, but their forwards always had some size all the way through their lines. That's often overlooked. You need size to get the possession time, not just skill.
On Detroit's championship team, the biggest forward they had was Johan Franzen. Other than him, the only other player over 200lbs they had in the forward lineup of any consequence is Mikael Samuelsson, oft accused of being soft.

Dan Cleary and Tomas Holmstrom are average sized.

I think the reason it's often overlooked is because it's not true.

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12-17-2009, 04:35 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
On Detroit's championship team, the biggest forward they had was Johan Franzen. Other than him, the only other player over 200lbs they had in the forward lineup of any consequence is Mikael Samuelsson, oft accused of being soft.

Dan Cleary and Tomas Holmstrom are average sized.

I think the reason it's often overlooked is because it's not true.
ok, maybe it was last year when they should have won except for injury.

They had tons of grit up front in their cup year tho with some size mixed in.

The other often overlooked factor is that they have elite talent.

* 8 Justin Abdelkader
* 11 Daniel Cleary
* 17 Dallas Drake
* 18 Kirk Maltby
* 20 Aaron Downey
* 25 Darren McCarty
* 37 Mikael Samuelsson
* 43 Darren Helm
* 82 Tomas Kopecky
* 93 Johan Franzen
* 96 Tomas Holmstrom

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12-17-2009, 04:41 PM
  #86
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I've been saying it for a while, if the Hawks drop Byfuglien this summer, Gainey jsd to jump on him. Too bad the habs will be in cap ****ery.

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12-17-2009, 05:20 PM
  #87
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If you don't think size gives you an edge then I don't know what to tell you. Big speedy players can control games....Kovalchuk, Heatley, Thornton, Malkin, etc. If you can't win the battles along the boards and/or outmuscle teams, you will LOSE. Which is what this team's doing rather consistently.

I'm not saying that you can't win with small players up front. But in order to win with those players you have to have speed and tenacity. Habs have none of that.

Andrei's the only player in the top 6 that hits. That's a big problem!

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12-17-2009, 05:21 PM
  #88
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I've been saying it for a while, if the Hawks drop Byfuglien this summer, Gainey jsd to jump on him. Too bad the habs will be in cap ****ery.
He is the player Latendresse was supposed to be. I like Byfuglien's game...I'd be all for the Habs getting him.

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12-17-2009, 05:45 PM
  #89
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He is the player Latendresse was supposed to be. I like Byfuglien's game...I'd be all for the Habs getting him.
This is the kind of player we need here since years. Guys like Dustin Brown, Scott Hartnell, Byfuglien, etc. Some thought mother****as!

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12-17-2009, 05:48 PM
  #90
MathMan
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
I don't think you're giving it time. You've been patrolling the boards, adding fuel to the fire whenever possible to bash Martin. It's almost as though you've targeted Martin to burden the blame for your sore disappointment.
I have. People keep blaming the roster, and it's not perfect, I'm really expecting more from Gomez even though I defend him a lot, but I simply do not think it is the root cause. The Habs have been consistently better with worse rosters than this one, unless someone wants to claim that this is the weakest Habs roster, relative to the league, that we've had in 15-20 years. Personally, I don't believe that.

The reason I'm blaming the coach rather than the system is a- I don't see a recipe for success in the system, b- discipline is ultimately a coaching issue (and it's not aided by a) and c- the team is actually regressing in terms of five-on-five play.

I think Martin has not delivered a winning system, I think he has delivered a losing system, and it slays me that people think he's doing a fantastic job. I'm not seeing it.

Well, scratch that. I do note with appreciation the improvements to things like special teams and, even if I wish it wasn't at the expense of everything else, to defensive coverage. There's positive signs in spots. I'm sitting here bashing Martin but I'm really kind of hoping he's targeting areas that need to be fixed one by one and addressing them. I would have put 5-on-5 play near the top of the list myself, but it is a lot more complex to deal with than any of the above. I'm just eager to see what will happen when "fix transition" will come up on his to-do list, because I think this is the #1 most important thing any team can do. And while minus Markov this is obviously not a strength of the roster, Martin has the horses to do something much better than what we've seen.

So perhaps I expected Martin to be a miracle-worker and he's not and it will take some more time. I'm strident because I'm unhappy with the trend and see regression rather than improvement. Maybe he's deconstructing the team's game and building it back up block by block and that's something he can't tell the media, but damn if I'm not eager to see results from it.

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12-17-2009, 06:19 PM
  #91
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This is the kind of player we need here since years. Guys like Dustin Brown, Scott Hartnell, Byfuglien, etc. Some thought mother****as!
I agree, Habs need a couple of players who play with a mean streak. Guys that other teams just can't stand.

Hartnell comes to mind.

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12-17-2009, 06:26 PM
  #92
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I have. People keep blaming the roster, and it's not perfect, I'm really expecting more from Gomez even though I defend him a lot, but I simply do not think it is the root cause. The Habs have been consistently better with worse rosters than this one, unless someone wants to claim that this is the weakest Habs roster, relative to the league, that we've had in 15-20 years. Personally, I don't believe that.

The reason I'm blaming the coach rather than the system is a- I don't see a recipe for success in the system, b- discipline is ultimately a coaching issue (and it's not aided by a) and c- the team is actually regressing in terms of five-on-five play.

I think Martin has not delivered a winning system, I think he has delivered a losing system, and it slays me that people think he's doing a fantastic job. I'm not seeing it.

Well, scratch that. I do note with appreciation the improvements to things like special teams and, even if I wish it wasn't at the expense of everything else, to defensive coverage. There's positive signs in spots. I'm sitting here bashing Martin but I'm really kind of hoping he's targeting areas that need to be fixed one by one and addressing them. I would have put 5-on-5 play near the top of the list myself, but it is a lot more complex to deal with than any of the above. I'm just eager to see what will happen when "fix transition" will come up on his to-do list, because I think this is the #1 most important thing any team can do. And while minus Markov this is obviously not a strength of the roster, Martin has the horses to do something much better than what we've seen.

So perhaps I expected Martin to be a miracle-worker and he's not and it will take some more time. I'm strident because I'm unhappy with the trend and see regression rather than improvement. Maybe he's deconstructing the team's game and building it back up block by block and that's something he can't tell the media, but damn if I'm not eager to see results from it.

Really ? who in our actual line-up (outside Plek and Camm) has the talent to play on our top 6 ? and who has the skillset to be considered a puck moving D ?

I mean, you know that even after calling Sergei we're still missing at least one top 6 forward right ? (and I'm generous saying only one)

and you also know that even after adding MAB, we're still missing puck moving D right ?

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Old
12-18-2009, 12:45 PM
  #93
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It was pretty evident last night that this is the easiest team in the NHL to play against. When one guy almost (Clutterbuck) outhits your entire team, you know you are in trouble. Sooooooft. Been saying it for years now.

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12-18-2009, 12:48 PM
  #94
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Really ? who in our actual line-up (outside Plek and Camm) has the talent to play on our top 6 ?
Andrei K (duh) and Gomez (who's better than the points he's getting, but sorely needs wingers and his acceleration back).

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and who has the skillset to be considered a puck moving D ?
Spacek. Hamrlik. Gorges too, although maybe not on a second pairing. And MAB, though he can be hit or miss.

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12-18-2009, 12:52 PM
  #95
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It was pretty evident last night that this is the easiest team in the NHL to play against. When one guy almost (Clutterbuck) outhits your entire team, you know you are in trouble. Sooooooft. Been saying it for years now.
I can't help but think Bob made the exact same remarks during the offseason. That the team was too easy to play against. And it hasn't changed...guys like Gionta and Cammalleri were good pickups absolutely, but the team overall isn't really tougher to play against. As many have mentioned, Montreal needs to acquire or develop bigger forwards with good hands, guys like Brown, Hartnell, Byfgulien, etc.

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12-18-2009, 01:09 PM
  #96
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It ain't about size.....this team needs to use its assets to draw more penalties. We don't put the oppostion in enough situations where they have to hold, slash, hook, etc. If this team had as many power play chances as they give up...or slightly more, Ithink our record would be much better.
Size has a LOT to do with it. Even our first line of Cammy, Plek and Andrei have trouble finishing plays the moment the other team apply a simple solid defensive system. They block our players to get them to play outside and it's a big problem getting to the net.

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Old
12-18-2009, 01:57 PM
  #97
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Maybe what Bauchemin said was not that far off base. The habs don't hate, they don't out-skate, they don't out-muscle you. They take weak shots, they take a lot of penalties, rarely is anyone in front of the net.

Teams used to hate to play the habs...now I think they look forward to playing them.

Playing the habs now is a walk in the park.

I hope this changes. I don't know where to start though. New players, new coach, same result.
I agree. And the return of Markov or Gionta won't change this. We have much bigger long term problems with the way this club is built.

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12-18-2009, 01:58 PM
  #98
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I agree, Habs need a couple of players who play with a mean streak. Guys that other teams just can't stand.

Hartnell comes to mind.
I wonder if Mike Komisarek is available?
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They have speed. Gomez and Plekanec are very fast skaters. The Habs were reputed to be a fast team and they replaced their top forwards with even faster guys. The problem ain't lack of foot speed, and not so much lack of skill either.

They are a fast team. But they won't use it. They'd rather collapse around their goalie and play passive. They used to at the beginning of the season and they would actually outplay and outshoot teams and play in their zone and when they would lose it would be because the other goalie saved .950 and their own saved .850. Then Martin drummed it out of them and now they suck. Now they're the ones praying for the other goalie to have an off night.

This is not, primarily, a roster problem. The roster isn't perfect, but it's not a sub-80 point team either.
We've been getting outplayed since game one. We had no business beating Toronto but Price saved the day and the same thing happened the next game in Buffalo. One game after that we got killed in Vancouver. What are you talking about?

I'm not a fan of Martin either (and I told you this when we hired him) but you seem to be using him as a scapegoat here.

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12-18-2009, 02:13 PM
  #99
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We've been getting outplayed since game one. We had no business beating Toronto but Price saved the day and the same thing happened the next game in Buffalo. One game after that we got killed in Vancouver. What are you talking about?
The games between that and about the time of Gionta's injury, where the Habs would outshoot and outchance teams and lose or win in overtime.

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12-18-2009, 02:19 PM
  #100
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The games between that and about the time of Gionta's injury, where the Habs would outshoot and outchance teams and lose or win in overtime.
So we should cherrypick the times where we did well? C'mon man. The only thing consistent about this team is it's inconsistency. The team hasn't played well for most of the year and that includes the start of the season. Without Price we'd be competing for last place. I don't think Martin has helped and I agree that injuries have hurt us but the bottom line is that this team doesn't have a whole lot of heart.

I asked this on one of these threads before but is it true that Iggy challenged our entire team and nobody stepped up? If so, that should tell you all you need to know about the state of this team.

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