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Kesler v. Fisher

View Poll Results: 5 year contract, Kesler vs. Fisher
Kesler 129 79.14%
Fisher 34 20.86%
Voters: 163. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-17-2009, 03:05 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by BrockH View Post
And by the way, last year, Fisher played 24.94% of his even strength shifts with Shannon. He played 27.80% of his even strength shifts with Alfredsson. Basically, you don't even know your own team's players (or are intentionally misrepresenting them), so how can you expect to pass judgement on another team's players?

Source:
http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpo...ations&sent=go


And there's a reason why Kesler is a lock and considered a key player on the US team. I have no doubt that he would also receive consideration for Team Canada if he were Canadian. He gets plenty of praise from players and coaches around the NHL too, by the way.
The post I responded to mentioned games played since Feb 9. Fisher played with Shannon and Foligno basically every game since Feb 9th. That line was created by Clouston who became the Sens HC on Feb 2nd. Try reading before you start throwing around accusations. Also, I didn't do the math but that doesn't look like 27% with Alfie to me.

Let's get back to talking about who is better now. Here's an interesting set of rankings:

No. Player Country Rating
1. Sidney Crosby Canada 92.23
2. Evgeni Malkin Russia 91.21
3. Nicklas Backstrom Sweden 86.51
4. Henrik Sedin Sweden 86.47
5. Mike Fisher Canada 86.07
6. Joe Thornton Canada 85.44
7. Brad Richards Canada 84.79
8. Anze Kopitar Slovenia 84.16
9. Henrik Zetterberg Sweden 83.70
10. Mikko Koivu Finland 82.52
11. Ryan Getzlaf Canada 82.39
12. Jonathan Toews Canada 81.11
13. Mike Richards Canada 80.70
14. Steven Stamkos Canada 80.44
15. Travis Zajac Canada 79.54
16. Ryan Kesler U.S.A. 79.38
17. Paul Stastny U.S.A. 78.85
18. Rich Peverley Canada 78.84
19. Stephen Weiss Canada 78.66
20. Joe Pavelski U.S.A. 78.59
21. Jason Arnott Canada 78.56
22. Tomas Plekanec Czech Republic 78.43
23. Jeff Carter Canada 78.24
24. Pavel Datsyuk Russia 77.76
25. Jarret Stoll Canada 77.64
26. Vincent Lecavalier Canada 77.46
27. Matt Stajan Canada 77.08
28. Eric Staal Canada 76.84
29. Derek Roy Canada 76.69
30. John Tavares Canada 76.51

source: http://www.ctvolympics.ca/hockey/new...tml?cid=rsstsn

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Old
12-17-2009, 03:12 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by sensfan83 View Post
The post I responded to mentioned games played since Feb 9. Fisher played with Shannon and Foligno basically every game since Feb 9th. That line was created by Clouston who became the Sens HC on Feb 2nd. Try reading before you start throwing around accusations. Also, I didn't do the math but that doesn't look like 27% with Alfie to me.

Let's get back to talking about who is better now. Here's an interesting set of rankings:

No. Player Country Rating
1. Sidney Crosby Canada 92.23
2. Evgeni Malkin Russia 91.21
3. Nicklas Backstrom Sweden 86.51
4. Henrik Sedin Sweden 86.47
5. Mike Fisher Canada 86.07
6. Joe Thornton Canada 85.44
7. Brad Richards Canada 84.79
8. Anze Kopitar Slovenia 84.16
9. Henrik Zetterberg Sweden 83.70
10. Mikko Koivu Finland 82.52
11. Ryan Getzlaf Canada 82.39
12. Jonathan Toews Canada 81.11
13. Mike Richards Canada 80.70
14. Steven Stamkos Canada 80.44
15. Travis Zajac Canada 79.54
16. Ryan Kesler U.S.A. 79.38
17. Paul Stastny U.S.A. 78.85
18. Rich Peverley Canada 78.84
19. Stephen Weiss Canada 78.66
20. Joe Pavelski U.S.A. 78.59
21. Jason Arnott Canada 78.56
22. Tomas Plekanec Czech Republic 78.43
23. Jeff Carter Canada 78.24
24. Pavel Datsyuk Russia 77.76
25. Jarret Stoll Canada 77.64
26. Vincent Lecavalier Canada 77.46
27. Matt Stajan Canada 77.08
28. Eric Staal Canada 76.84
29. Derek Roy Canada 76.69
30. John Tavares Canada 76.51

source: http://www.ctvolympics.ca/hockey/new...tml?cid=rsstsn
Some random rankings that ranks Fisher higher than Thornton. Seems legit.

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Old
12-17-2009, 03:13 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Krnuckfan View Post
Some random rankings that ranks Fisher higher than Thornton. Seems legit.
Well it's no HFBoards poll but it's all I've got.


Last edited by sensfan83*: 12-17-2009 at 03:28 PM.
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Old
12-17-2009, 03:27 PM
  #29
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He gets plenty of praise from players and coaches around the NHL too, by the way.
As does Fisher, such as Lindy Ruff less than a week ago.

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12-17-2009, 03:39 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by sensfan83 View Post
The post I responded to mentioned games played since Feb 9. Fisher played with Shannon and Foligno basically every game since Feb 9th. That line was created by Clouston who became the Sens HC on Feb 2nd. Try reading before you start throwing around accusations. Also, I didn't do the math but that doesn't look like 27% with Alfie to me.
I did do the math. If you're going to accuse me of being wrong, at least put in the due diligence. I have an excel spreadsheet that I can send to you if you don't believe me. Further, I like how you completely glossed over the numbers for this season's line combo's. Or are you going to argue that Raymond and Samuelsson are better players than Kovalev and Alfredsson?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sensfan83 View Post
In last season's games, Fisher had been centering Shannon and Foligno...
If you mean a specific subset of last season's games (games after February 9th), you should specify that. You said last season's games, so I looked at last season's games. I'm not a mind reader. I responded to what you posted, and I responded accurately.

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Originally Posted by Bass Lee View Post
As does Fisher, such as Lindy Ruff less than a week ago.
Errr...yeah, I know. My post was a response to that (even specifically teh Lindy Ruff comment). So now we have:
sensfan83: Fisher gets high praise.
Me: I agree, but so does Kesler.
Bass Lee: Yeah, but so does Fisher.

lol

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Old
12-17-2009, 03:43 PM
  #31
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What an ignorant thing to say. Based on those comments, I doubt you've ever watched Fisher play. There's a reason he's being considered for the 4th line of Team Canada along with guys like Morrow, Richards, Doan, Sharp, Toews, Staal, etc.. Fisher has received high praise from some great hockey players (Crosby called his the toughest player in the league to play against), and coaches (Lindy Ruff just called him Ottawa's best player ahead of even Alfie). And for the record, he's also been nominated for a Selke.
Ignorant because I called you out on your weird homoerotic man crush? That's not ignorant, that's perceptive.

Your points are meaningless. If Kesler was Canadian "there would be a reason he'd be considered the for the 4th line of Team Canada" as well, we already know he is a lock for Team USA. As I'm sure Fisher would be if he was American. Total non sequitur, as is other players heaping praise on either of the two players.

The one thing we can look at here is faceoff percentage, which Kesler is better in, offensive statistics, which again, Kesler is better despite playing with worse linemates this season (the linemate issue has been more than adequately addressed), in addition to the fact that the West is a tigher, more defensive oriented conference, and defensive play - Kesler's nomination was last year, compared to 3 years ago for Fisher. Fisher has the edge in physicality, and that's about it. Factor in the 5 year age difference and it's Kesler by a country mile.

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Old
12-17-2009, 03:48 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by BrockH View Post
I did do the math. If you're going to accuse me of being wrong, at least put in the due diligence. I have an excel spreadsheet that I can send to you if you don't believe me. Further, I like how you completely glossed over the numbers for this season's line combo's. Or are you going to argue that Raymond and Samuelsson are better players than Kovalev and Alfredsson?
Kovalev had to play on his off wing and was basically invisible for the start of the season when that line existed. Fisher's been with Kovalev and Foligno since then which isn't a huge upgrade over Raymond and Samuelsson... and he's been arguably hotter since. Granted, Kesler has put up good numbers this season with weak linemates but Fisher is outproducing him at ES which is where those line combinations would actually factor.

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12-17-2009, 03:51 PM
  #33
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Im just sad for people who think Fisher is better or even equal.

Kesler is slightly better both on offense and defense (some would argue that he is much better defensively, you dont get Selke nominated for nothing) and he is much younger. The only thing Fisher is better at is physicality but its not like Kesler doesnt hit at all.
Ummm... I guess you're right, you don't get a Selke nomination for nothing... but Kesler's not the only one who's gotten one...

2005/06 Award Voting
SELKE: (2984/3354 (124-115-111-97-93)
1. Rod Brind'Amour, CAR 954 (80-16-5-5-2)
2. Jere Lehtinen, DAL 567 (9-41-27-15-10)
3. Mike Fisher, OTT 179 (5-6-8-13-8)
4. Daniel Alfredsson, OTT 143 (5-5-8-5-3)
5. John Madden, NJD 142 (2-6-9-9-8)
6. Kris Draper, DET 136 (4-5-7-6-8)
7. Stephane Yelle, CGY 126 (2-5-8-8-7)
8. Jay Pandolfo, NJD 105 (0-4-10-6-9)
9. Henrik Zetterberg, DET 98 (2-6-3-6-3)
10. Brian Rolston, MIN 96 (4-4-3-3-4)

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12-17-2009, 03:53 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by sensfan83 View Post
The post I responded to mentioned games played since Feb 9. Fisher played with Shannon and Foligno basically every game since Feb 9th. That line was created by Clouston who became the Sens HC on Feb 2nd. Try reading before you start throwing around accusations. Also, I didn't do the math but that doesn't look like 27% with Alfie to me.

Let's get back to talking about who is better now. Here's an interesting set of rankings:

No. Player Country Rating
1. Sidney Crosby Canada 92.23
2. Evgeni Malkin Russia 91.21
3. Nicklas Backstrom Sweden 86.51
4. Henrik Sedin Sweden 86.47
5. Mike Fisher Canada 86.07
6. Joe Thornton Canada 85.44
7. Brad Richards Canada 84.79
....

source: http://www.ctvolympics.ca/hockey/new...tml?cid=rsstsn
Yeah, and in their goalies list, they rank Nittymaki as the 4th best goalie in the NHL, and Hedberg at 8th. Goligoski is also apparently the 5th best dman in the NHL.

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12-17-2009, 03:57 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by BrockH View Post
Yeah, and in their goalies list, they rank Nittymaki as the 4th best goalie in the NHL, and Hedberg at 8th. Goligoski is also apparently the 5th best dman in the NHL.
They're not rating who is the best. They're rating who's had the biggest impact on their respective team's successes so far this season. So far this season, Fisher has had the 5th most positive impact on his team among centers in the league according to this metric.

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12-17-2009, 03:59 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by sensfan83 View Post
Kovalev had to play on his off wing and was basically invisible for the start of the season when that line existed. Fisher's been with Kovalev and Foligno since then which isn't a huge upgrade over Raymond and Samuelsson... and he's been arguably hotter since. Granted, Kesler has put up good numbers this season with weak linemates but Fisher is outproducing him at ES which is where those line combinations would actually factor.
Good point about the ES points. I still think Kesler's age, overall numbers since moving to the second line, weaker linemates (marginally based on what you've said, but weaker), and consistent improvement (vs. Fisher's inconsistent volatility year-to-year), have got to give the upper hand to Kesler.

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12-17-2009, 04:00 PM
  #37
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Ignorant because I called you out on your weird homoerotic man crush? That's not ignorant, that's perceptive.

Your points are meaningless. If Kesler was Canadian "there would be a reason he'd be considered the for the 4th line of Team Canada" as well, we already know he is a lock for Team USA. As I'm sure Fisher would be if he was American. Total non sequitur, as is other players heaping praise on either of the two players.

The one thing we can look at here is faceoff percentage, which Kesler is better in, offensive statistics, which again, Kesler is better despite playing with worse linemates this season (the linemate issue has been more than adequately addressed), in addition to the fact that the West is a tigher, more defensive oriented conference, and defensive play - Kesler's nomination was last year, compared to 3 years ago for Fisher. Fisher has the edge in physicality, and that's about it. Factor in the 5 year age difference and it's Kesler by a country mile.
Kesler also gets significant more PP time than Fisher (3:06 per game compared to 2:42 per game), and when you take into account the fact that Ottawa's 25th in PP's received while Vancouver is 7th, the difference is even bigger (105 minutes total for Kesler, 83 minutes total for Fisher).

Kesler's pretty much played an entire period on the PP more than Fisher, and that definitely contributes to his offensive statistics, but you seem to have left that out and only talked about Fisher's linemates...

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12-17-2009, 04:06 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by sensfan83 View Post
They're not rating who is the best. They're rating who's had the biggest impact on their respective team's successes so far this season. So far this season, Fisher has had the 5th most positive impact on his team among centers in the league according to this metric.
Ah, interesting, I'm at work so I don't have time to delve into the math behind it, but I would certainly have to question those rankings based on who's come out on top, or at a minimum question their relevance. You're using them as an argument that you would take Fisher over Kesler on a 5 year contract for the same price. If that argument is valid, then I can use the same argument to justify signing Nittymaki (or Hedberg, or any other of a number of goalies) over Luongo or Lundqvist.

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12-17-2009, 04:16 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
Kesler also gets significant more PP time than Fisher (3:06 per game compared to 2:42 per game), and when you take into account the fact that Ottawa's 25th in PP's received while Vancouver is 7th, the difference is even bigger (105 minutes total for Kesler, 83 minutes total for Fisher).

Kesler's pretty much played an entire period on the PP more than Fisher, and that definitely contributes to his offensive statistics, but you seem to have left that out and only talked about Fisher's linemates...
Kesler has 13 PPPs.13/105 = 0.124PPP/min, 0.124PPP/min * (105min-83min) = 2.7 points

So yes, Kesler's numbers are inflated by roughly 2.7 points due to excess power play time.

Interestingly, Fisher's total ES time this season is 444, Kesler's is 477. So Kesler actually has an advantage there too (though it'd only work out to like a 0.5 points). I'll concede that Fisher's offensive numbers this year are marginally better than Kesler's, but I still think Kesler is the clear choice going forward for 5 years because of all the other reasons I listed a few posts above.

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12-17-2009, 04:20 PM
  #40
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Why are there such stupid restrictions on the poll?

Neither player has a cap hit of 4.5m. Neither player has a contract that goes five years beyond this season. Whats with the completely illogical scenario? It's a poll set up for an easy Kesler victory just based on the fact of the 2 players ages. Why not make them the exact age?

If you want to do something based on this hypothetical situation of both of them being free agents next year or even this past year. Why not have both of their respect RFA and UFA status be a part of the poll? Thats an advantage/disadvantage that negates the 5 years in age difference. Something like....

Do you sign Kesler to an offer sheet at 4.6m+ over 5 years (would have to be a high price so Vancouver doesn't match) plus costing yourself a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd pick..

OR

Do you sign Fisher to the same 4.6m+ contract over 5 years and lose nothing.

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12-17-2009, 04:23 PM
  #41
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Ummm... I guess you're right, you don't get a Selke nomination for nothing... but Kesler's not the only one who's gotten one...

2005/06 Award Voting
SELKE: (2984/3354 (124-115-111-97-93)
1. Rod Brind'Amour, CAR 954 (80-16-5-5-2)
2. Jere Lehtinen, DAL 567 (9-41-27-15-10)
3. Mike Fisher, OTT 179 (5-6-8-13-8)
4. Daniel Alfredsson, OTT 143 (5-5-8-5-3)
5. John Madden, NJD 142 (2-6-9-9-8)
6. Kris Draper, DET 136 (4-5-7-6-8)
7. Stephane Yelle, CGY 126 (2-5-8-8-7)
8. Jay Pandolfo, NJD 105 (0-4-10-6-9)
9. Henrik Zetterberg, DET 98 (2-6-3-6-3)
10. Brian Rolston, MIN 96 (4-4-3-3-4)
And who won that year? Rod Brind'Amour. Would you argue Brind'Amour is currently better defensively than Datsyuk? This is 3 years ago - note Madden, Draper on there as well. If we're talking current defensive play Kesler is the superior player. He also has one of the best takeaway to giveaway ratios in the league a 2.46, compared to Fisher at 1.25.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMatthew View Post
Kesler also gets significant more PP time than Fisher (3:06 per game compared to 2:42 per game), and when you take into account the fact that Ottawa's 25th in PP's received while Vancouver is 7th, the difference is even bigger (105 minutes total for Kesler, 83 minutes total for Fisher).

Kesler's pretty much played an entire period on the PP more than Fisher, and that definitely contributes to his offensive statistics, but you seem to have left that out and only talked about Fisher's linemates...
I'm not sure I would classify 24 seconds per game or 20 minutes over the season thus far as that significant, but, sure Kesler receives more PP time. However it's pretty hard to tease out the following confounding variables: whether Kesler gets his points b/c Vancouver's powerplay is good or whether his play is part of the reason that makes it that good. In any case Kesler has 6 more PP points than Fisher for that extra 22 minutes, which means he's certainly utilizing that time effectively, and you can argue he's a better PP player.

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Old
12-17-2009, 04:40 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
And who won that year? Rod Brind'Amour. Would you argue Brind'Amour is currently better defensively than Datsyuk? This is 3 years ago - note Madden, Draper on there as well. If we're talking current defensive play Kesler is the superior player. He also has one of the best takeaway to giveaway ratios in the league a 2.46, compared to Fisher at 1.25.
Brind'amour is 39 years old, Madden is 36, Draper is 38... Fisher is 29.

Fisher is +9 on a team that is -2. Kesler is -1 on a team that is +18. Fisher also leads the league with 2 OT GWG and he has 5 of them since 2007-2008 (pretty sure this leads the league in that timeframe). Talk about clutch. Kesler has just 1 in his career. We can do this all day.


Last edited by sensfan83*: 12-17-2009 at 04:57 PM.
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12-17-2009, 04:52 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Pacem View Post
Why are there such stupid restrictions on the poll?

Neither player has a cap hit of 4.5m. Neither player has a contract that goes five years beyond this season. Whats with the completely illogical scenario? It's a poll set up for an easy Kesler victory just based on the fact of the 2 players ages. Why not make them the exact age?

If you want to do something based on this hypothetical situation of both of them being free agents next year or even this past year. Why not have both of their respect RFA and UFA status be a part of the poll? Thats an advantage/disadvantage that negates the 5 years in age difference. Something like....

Do you sign Kesler to an offer sheet at 4.6m+ over 5 years (would have to be a high price so Vancouver doesn't match) plus costing yourself a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd pick..

OR

Do you sign Fisher to the same 4.6m+ contract over 5 years and lose nothing.
Because the point was it's supposed to be a "who's going to be better for the next 5 years." The creator of the pole just was more deliberate in structuring it, so there was no confusion. You've never seen a 'who would you rather' pole?

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12-17-2009, 04:54 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by sensfan83 View Post
Brind'amour is 39 years old, Madden is 36, Draper is 38... Fisher is 29.

Fisher is +9 on a team that is -2. Kesler is -1 on a team that is +18. Fisher also leads the league with 2 OT GWG. Talk about clutch. We can do this all day.
Agreed, but Kesler did get nominated for a Selke last year, Fisher was nominated 3 years ago. Whether or not Fisher's play has deteriorated, the fact is the people who voted for him before voted for Kesler instead based on last year's performance (obviously in a very broad sense).

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12-17-2009, 05:08 PM
  #45
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But Fisher is stronger!!!11! STRONGER!!!

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12-17-2009, 05:32 PM
  #46
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younger, faster, better. kesler easily. even with the previous posts.

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12-17-2009, 05:54 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Black Tooth Grin View Post
I think right now, Fisher is playing better hockey than Kesler, he's had an amazing first half thus far.

But his problem has always been consistency, he'll have to keep it up to prove himself better than Kesler, who has played at a high level for a couple years now.
Although Kesler has yet to prove this either, I tend to agree. I'm thrilled with the season Fisher is having, but in the back of my mind, I keep feeling he will come back down to earth... I hope I'm dead wrong and this is just how good Fisher is now.

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12-17-2009, 05:56 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by sensfan83 View Post
Fisher is +9 on a team that is -2. Kesler is -1 on a team that is +18. Fisher also leads the league with 2 OT GWG and he has 5 of them since 2007-2008 (pretty sure this leads the league in that timeframe). Talk about clutch. Kesler has just 1 in his career. We can do this all day.
You're right we can do this all day:

08-09 Kesler: 26+33=59 in 82 games +8, selke nominee

08-09 Fisher: 13+19=32 in 78 games +0

I know the Sens had bad year and bla bla bla but Fisher's career high points = 48. He would've scored around 50 pts if he didnt get injured in both seasons after the lockout (68 games in both 05-06 and 06-07) but the Sens were also very high scoring team that time.

So lets say Fisher is 50 point guy and Kesler is 50-60 point guy when both are centering second lines for their teams. So, Kesler is slightly better offensively and better defensively. What more is there to say? Oh yea, Kesler will still improve.

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12-17-2009, 05:59 PM
  #49
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Fisher: Random stat presented to make Fisher look better
Kessler: Random stat presented to make Kessler look inferior

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Old
12-17-2009, 06:38 PM
  #50
Ronaldo
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 36,655
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Kesler and it's not really close,this year Fisher has played with Kovalev and sometime Alfy,while Kesler has played with Mason Raymond and Mikael Samuelsson.Fisher career high in points is 48 while Kesler's is 59 while Kesler is 4 years younger.

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