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Old
12-18-2009, 10:26 PM
  #1
Bryanbryoil
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Go After Vanek?

Firstly, he's had a rough season by his standards, supposedly isn't too cozy with Lindy Ruff, and maybe, just maybe the Sabres would like to be rid of his $7.14 million cap hit for the next 4 seasons beyond this one.

My proposal:

To Edmonton: Tomas Vanek
To Buffalo: Denis Grebeshkov or Tom Gilbert and Andrew Cogliano

The Sabres shed salary and get 2 solid young players that they can add to the club or use as trade bait.

Another possibility since Ruff seems be a Horcoff fan......

To Edmonton: Vanek and Hecht $10.67 million
To Buffalo: Horcoff and Grebeshkov/Gilbert $9.5 million or so

We take on a crappy contract with Hecht, but at least it's only for another 2 seasons beyond this one.

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12-18-2009, 10:45 PM
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That's not even close IMO.

I think they ask for both Eberle and Magnus and that probably doesn't even get it done.

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12-18-2009, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Skating View Post
That's not even close IMO.

I think they ask for both Eberle and Magnus and that probably doesn't even get it done.
If he were contributing like he has in years past and wasn't skating on the 2nd line or lower consistently, I would agree.

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12-18-2009, 10:53 PM
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Even with his tough start, Vanek's worth is probably around the 3 first round pick mark. That doesn't mean straight-up 1sts, but players you'd reasonably expect could fetch one.

The Sabres DESPERATELY need a defender that can support the transition. But by trading Vanek to fill that hole, they're just opening up another one.

What about something like Penner, Gilbert and a 1st? I think if we're going to fetch a star LW we need to give one up in the process especially when it concerns salary. Penner has ten more goals than Vanek, yes, but Vanek's averaged 40 goals the last three years.

We'd then have a top line locked up for a long period of time, and the above trade would allow us to keep the stable of former 1sts together (MSP, Eberle, Gagner, Brule, Cogliano).

Next year:

Vanek-Horcoff-Hemsky
X-Gagner-Brule
Nilsson-Cogliano-O'Sullivan
Moreau-Stone-Stortini

Visnovsky-Smid
Souray-Grebeshkov
Staios-Chorney

Khabi
JDD

X being either a free agent, a kid, or someone we trade a kid for. For example, how good would Scottie Hartnell look there?

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12-18-2009, 10:58 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
Even with his tough start, Vanek's worth is probably around the 3 first round pick mark. That doesn't mean straight-up 1sts, but players you'd reasonably expect could fetch one.

The Sabres DESPERATELY need a defender that can support the transition. But by trading Vanek to fill that hole, they're just opening up another one.

What about something like Penner, Gilbert and a 1st? I think if we're going to fetch a star LW we need to give one up in the process especially when it concerns salary. Penner has ten more goals than Vanek, yes, but Vanek's averaged 40 goals the last three years.

We'd then have a top line locked up for a long period of time, and the above trade would allow us to keep the stable of former 1sts together (MSP, Eberle, Gagner, Brule, Cogliano).

Next year:

Vanek-Horcoff-Hemsky
X-Gagner-Brule
Nilsson-Cogliano-O'Sullivan
Moreau-Stone-Stortini

Visnovsky-Smid
Souray-Grebeshkov
Staios-Chorney

Khabi
JDD

X being either a free agent, a kid, or someone we trade a kid for. For example, how good would Scottie Hartnell look there?
No thanks.

If the value is 3 1sts, how about Cogs, Eberle, and Grebeshkov? Giving up Penner would be ridiculous unless we got a proven ELITE player, that IMO is not Vanek. I believe that Penner is on pace to best anything that Vanek has done in his career this season.

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Old
12-18-2009, 11:12 PM
  #6
misfit
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NHL general managers are NHL general managers because they DON'T act like your average chicken little hockey fan. Darcy Regeir isn't going to give up on Vanek just because after 30 games he's only on pace for 55 points instead of 70. The same reason Eric Staal isn't going anywhere even though he's underperforming. Vincent Lecavalier is the only star player I could see possibly being shopped (still unlikely though), and that's because their ownership DOES act like Joe Fan.

Are Cogliano and Gilbert/Grebeshkov really that enticing that they're going to offer up a guy who's basically their franchise player?

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12-18-2009, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misfit View Post
NHL general managers are NHL general managers because they DON'T act like your average chicken little hockey fan. Darcy Regeir isn't going to give up on Vanek just because after 30 games he's only on pace for 55 points instead of 70. The same reason Eric Staal isn't going anywhere even though he's underperforming. Vincent Lecavalier is the only star player I could see possibly being shopped (still unlikely though), and that's because their ownership DOES act like Joe Fan.

Are Cogliano and Gilbert/Grebeshkov really that enticing that they're going to offer up a guy who's basically their franchise player?
Last I checked, franchise forwards don't play on the 2nd or 3rd line unless your team is star studded.

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Old
12-18-2009, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
If the value is 3 1sts, how about Cogs, Eberle, and Grebeshkov?
Because it doesn't make sense for a team whose next-best LW is Clarke MacArthur.

Quote:
Giving up Penner would be ridiculous unless we got a proven ELITE player, that IMO is not Vanek.
He's not? Vanek is 9th in goals since 2005-06. Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Heatley and Zetterberg are the only LWs with more.

Quote:
I believe that Penner is on pace to best anything that Vanek has done in his career this season.
He's on pace to tie his career high in goals, and beat his career-best in points by five.

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Old
12-18-2009, 11:29 PM
  #9
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I donno about Vanek. He's a 65 point player since he signed his new contract. Thats not worth the money he's getting payed.

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12-18-2009, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
I donno about Vanek. He's a 65 point player since he signed his new contract. Thats not worth the money he's getting payed.
True but he is a goal scorer which would be nice to have to compliment Hemsky since Penner does so well with Brule and Gagner.

Penner-Gagner-Brule
Vanek-Potulny-Hemsky

Weak down the middle for sure, but very strong on the wings.

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12-18-2009, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
I donno about Vanek. He's a 65 point player since he signed his new contract. Thats not worth the money he's getting payed.
Yeah, but 75% of those points are goals.

The thing about Tomas Vanek? He's only played 16:30-17:00 a game since he signed that contract. Lindy Ruff has been very hard on him, and it's really drove a lot of Sabres fans up the walls.

Truth is, he is an inconsistent scorer. But he's also not easily pushed around and is only 26 years old. I think he fits long term and short term.

I can actually picture a second line of Vanek-Horcoff-Hemsky.

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12-19-2009, 12:00 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
True but he is a goal scorer which would be nice to have to compliment Hemsky since Penner does so well with Brule and Gagner.

Penner-Gagner-Brule
Vanek-Potulny-Hemsky

Weak down the middle for sure, but very strong on the wings.
Too bad centre is the most important forward position.

If Ryan Potulny is the second line centre, we need to go get a REAL centre. We have none in the system save for maybe Chris Vande Velde who is three years away.

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12-19-2009, 12:11 AM
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No interest in Vanek. Way, way too one-dimensional for the money he makes. I'd much rather go after someone who's more dynamic, like Lecavelier, etc.

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12-19-2009, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Skating View Post
That's not even close IMO.

I think they ask for both Eberle and Magnus and that probably doesn't even get it done.

BBO is looking at his production this year and thinks buffalo will want to move

It would maybe both Eberle and MPS

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12-19-2009, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
Because it doesn't make sense for a team whose next-best LW is Clarke MacArthur.
.
Well, they do have Roy, who prefers LW to center. He plays both, but given the choice would choose the left side. If Vanek were moved and a center was part of the package, they would just move Roy over to fill the gap.

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12-19-2009, 03:30 AM
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Vanek-Horcoff-Hemsky
Penner-Gagner-Brule

Would be a sick top six for next year.

Vanek-Gagner-Penner
Nilsson-Horcoff-Brule

Would be a sick top six this year.

NIce thought but thats all it is.

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12-19-2009, 08:02 AM
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It would be nice to get Vanek, but the cost would be a lot higher than most of us think. It would cost Penner, or Hemsky, et al. If we're trading players like that, I'd rather see a Nathan Horton type coming back, to work with Eberle, Marcus etc.
I think Potulny playing center with Vanek and Hemsky, would look like the pee wee kid that stands on the blue line for the anthem.

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Old
12-19-2009, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mactforcoach View Post
It would be nice to get Vanek, but the cost would be a lot higher than most of us think. It would cost Penner, or Hemsky, et al. If we're trading players like that, I'd rather see a Nathan Horton type coming back, to work with Eberle, Marcus etc.
I think Potulny playing center with Vanek and Hemsky, would look like the pee wee kid that stands on the blue line for the anthem.
I honestly think it would cost much less than you think.

Tomas Vanek is a one dimensional scorer who makes more money than most teams are willing to pay him for far too long. Large contracts are hard as hell to move, if Buffalo were to move him (I speculated last year that they would be open to it; Vanek and Ruff aren't exactly butt buddies and the ownership is iffy) I'd guess top-six player, top-six defenseman and a prospect.

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12-19-2009, 08:25 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
I honestly think it would cost much less than you think.

Tomas Vanek is a one dimensional scorer who makes more money than most teams are willing to pay him for far too long. Large contracts are hard as hell to move, if Buffalo were to move him (I speculated last year that they would be open to it; Vanek and Ruff aren't exactly butt buddies and the ownership is iffy) I'd guess top-six player, top-six defenseman and a prospect.
You may be right, but you also pointed out something this team can't afford anymore. I'd also be concerned about the possibility of him not fitting in here, or not liking it here. Then what?
His contract would be hard to move, and we'd get burned on the deal. I don't know, ever since Pronger, I worry about those things. Rather try to build from within, and face the fact that the Oilers are going to be a very bad team for the next few years. I've wrote off the playoffs this year, and probably next.

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12-19-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mactforcoach View Post
You may be right, but you also pointed out something this team can't afford anymore. I'd also be concerned about the possibility of him not fitting in here, or not liking it here. Then what?
His contract would be hard to move, and we'd get burned on the deal. I don't know, ever since Pronger, I worry about those things. Rather try to build from within, and face the fact that the Oilers are going to be a very bad team for the next few years. I've wrote off the playoffs this year, and probably next
Well, we all have our opinions.

I think this team is a playoff one if it's healthy or closer to healthy than it's been and I don't think this team will be in the toilet for much longer, assuming they don't blow it up. Which they won't. I believe I have a good reason for believing that, but I know I'm not in the majority here.

Vanek plays in the market that the players voted the worst (over Edmonton) a couple years back. He's a guy who said the right things when he signed our RFA offersheet. I've seen a bit of him and he says the right things often. Ruff misuses him IMO and I haven't heard word one about him demanding a trade.

And I think he's the ideal (and the affordable ideal, in terms of what it would cost to acquire him) for Ales Hemsky. I even think it's doable against the cap, considering that it sounds like it's actually going to go up and what we'll be able to move off the books this summer.

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12-19-2009, 09:29 AM
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I like Vanek alot, but I think the Oilers need to focus on a top line center. IMO, Gagner is a couple of seasons away from being a consistent threat and we are currently siting on two topline wingers(27, 83). We need to put together a world class line that can compete with the league's best.

Staal
Carter
Bergeron
Lecavalier
Spezza

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12-19-2009, 09:32 AM
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The Sabres DESPERATELY need a defender that can support the transition.
That is not even close to being accurate. Myers and Sekera are both very good at the transition game, Tallinder, Lydman and Montador are competent.

I think this myth comes from letting go of Campbell. Because he was so good at it, people assume the Sabres had a big hole, when in truth they have numerous Dmen that are capable at the transition game, and as mentioned, Myers and Sekera are very good at it.

The big need for the Sabres is top 6 scoring. Darcy Regier even mentioned it again in a pre game interview yesterday.

As for Vanek he is not really in Ruff's doghouse. At least not in the same way that Afinogenov was. Ruff just did not like Max's style of play, it was a match made in hell. Vanek is more like one of Ruff's favorites. He mentioned last year that he thinks Vanek has the potential to be like Datsyuk. He works very hard with Vanek to make him a complete player. That was the year that Vanek led the league in +/- for most of the year. He is developing into a goalscorer that plays a well rounded game.

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12-19-2009, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by camboy View Post
I like Vanek alot, but I think the Oilers need to focus on a top line center. IMO, Gagner is a couple of seasons away from being a consistent threat and we are currently siting on two topline wingers(27, 83). We need to put together a world class line that can compete with the league's best.

Staal
Carter
Bergeron
Lecavalier
Spezza

I agree with you... with one exception, I think the Oil needs to be throwing a great deal at Atlanta and pursue Kovalchuk. Give them what it would require, and sign Kovalchuk to a hugely front loaded deal for a great many years - make room anyway they can. If that doesn't pan out, then look at Carter, Stall, or Lecavalier. Spezza (soft and hurt) and Bergeron (lighter than Hemsky) are not what 'we' need centering the top line.

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12-19-2009, 12:46 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
That is not even close to being accurate. Myers and Sekera are both very good at the transition game, Tallinder, Lydman and Montador are competent.

I think this myth comes from letting go of Campbell. Because he was so good at it, people assume the Sabres had a big hole, when in truth they have numerous Dmen that are capable at the transition game, and as mentioned, Myers and Sekera are very good at it.

The big need for the Sabres is top 6 scoring. Darcy Regier even mentioned it again in a pre game interview yesterday.

As for Vanek he is not really in Ruff's doghouse. At least not in the same way that Afinogenov was. Ruff just did not like Max's style of play, it was a match made in hell. Vanek is more like one of Ruff's favorites. He mentioned last year that he thinks Vanek has the potential to be like Datsyuk. He works very hard with Vanek to make him a complete player. That was the year that Vanek led the league in +/- for most of the year. He is developing into a goalscorer that plays a well rounded game.
I watch a fair amount of Sabres games and IMO they could still use some help offensively on the blueline. Myers is a gem, an absolute beauty of a player. That said I still think you could use some more offensive help from the blueline and up front for that matter.

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12-19-2009, 12:56 PM
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I'd rather have Stafford than Vanek.

Drew Stafford has a combination of grit and skill. This team is full of guys who have one or the other....but how many players have both? Uhmm....three by my count.

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