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Old
12-21-2009, 09:40 PM
  #51
Chicken Chaser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Detroit is staying afloat with an AHL roster right now, for crying out loud.

Look, you and I don't have the answers for this team right now. Neither does anyone else on these boards. Nor does Homer or Lavi or any of the players. Its such a mess right now that its mind boggling.

But just stop with the "we don't have enough talent to score goals" argument. The facts from the previous two seasons just don't back it up. But yea, far be it from me to introduce any kind of logic into the equation.
while i'd like this to hold up, there's been a ton of player changes in the past two years, this team just isn't the same... the "star" level players are here sure. but there's no chemistry what so ever.

even though the past two teams fell short, and I think i can agree with not having enough Talent, or someone who can will his team to a victory even when they shouldn't win, the past teams had chemistry, which can go a long way when the star power isn't there.

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Old
12-21-2009, 09:45 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Chicken Chaser View Post
the past teams had chemistry, which can go a long way when the star power isn't there.
You made my point for me. Its not about talent. This team has enough talent. You don't have to have the best of the best talent-wise to win. But there damn sure ain't enough chemistry, heart or determination on this club. Which was pretty much my point.

This teams problems cut far deeper than a lack of talent.

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12-21-2009, 09:51 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
You made my point for me. Its not about talent. This team has enough talent. You don't have to have the best of the best talent-wise to win. But there damn sure ain't enough chemistry, heart or determination on this club. Which was pretty much my point.

This teams problems cut far deeper than a lack of talent.
Absolutely! Like I have mentioned many times, from the team that went to the conference finals two seasons ago you have either traded or lost Umberger, Upshall, Downie, Lupul, Kukkonen, Smith, Hatcher, Biron, Nitty, Jones

Whether we all liked those players or not, whether they were significant or not, that is half of an NHL roster in two seasons. Something is not working with this group of players and they better figure it out soon.

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Old
12-21-2009, 09:51 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
You made my point for me. Its not about talent. This team has enough talent. You don't have to have the best of the best talent-wise to win. But there damn sure ain't enough chemistry, heart or determination on this club. Which was pretty much my point.

This teams problems cut far deeper than a lack of talent.
yeah i agree after i went and reread what i posted, while this team has the talent to win, it severely lacks any continuity to put what talent is there to use, and I think what the other poster was alluding to is that there is no one on this roster, not since Forsberg, or Lindros for that matter, who will win the game by themselves when the team collectively lays an egg.

And the frustrating thing is as a fan is seeing teams with top end talent pulling away in the standings and winning cups recently, and most likely for the near future. Do we need carter to always put up close to 50 goals a season to win? no, but if he's not doing that, then the team needs to pick up the slack in the goal department and we've lost alot of the depth over the past two seasons that aloud for our better players to hit funks.

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Old
12-21-2009, 09:51 PM
  #55
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would Flyers fans think the following deal would be fair from Boston:

Krejci, Wheeler, Recchi, Ference, Boston 1st 2010

for Carter and Coburn

Philly:

JVR Richards Briere
Gagne Krejci Wheeler
Hartnell Giroux Recchi

Thoughts??

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Old
12-21-2009, 09:54 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Absolutely! Like I have mentioned many times, from the team that went to the conference finals two seasons ago you have either traded or lost Umberger, Upshall, Downie, Lupul, Kukkonen, Smith, Hatcher, Biron, Nitty, Jones

Whether we all liked those players or not, whether they were significant or not, that is half of an NHL roster in two seasons. Something is not working with this group of players and they better figure it out soon.
I'm beginning to think that we actually made things worse, even if it looked on paper like we were getting better. Chemistry and locker room morale are very tough things to gauge when making trades, and I'm really sensing that we did too much too soon.

Instead of letting this team progress on its own, with just a few moves here and there, we turned over too much of the roster too quickly, and ended up going backwards.

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12-21-2009, 09:54 PM
  #57
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really dude. of course you take that

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Old
12-21-2009, 09:55 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbeard7737 View Post
would Flyers fans think the following deal would be fair from Boston:

Krejci, Wheeler, Recchi, Ference, Boston 1st 2010

for Carter and Coburn

Philly:

JVR Richards Briere
Gagne Krejci Wheeler
Hartnell Giroux Recchi

Thoughts??
So... where do I sign?

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Old
12-21-2009, 10:04 PM
  #59
mikedifr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
I'm beginning to think that we actually made things worse, even if it looked on paper like we were getting better. Chemistry and locker room morale are very tough things to gauge when making trades, and I'm really sensing that we did too much too soon.

Instead of letting this team progress on its own, with just a few moves here and there, we turned over too much of the roster too quickly, and ended up going backwards.
Agreed. I understand some moves had to be made, like Umberger, but we didnt need to trade for Carle last year, we could have gone with a much cheaper temporary solution.....which would have resulted in not having to move Upshall, Vaananen, etc. We might still have at least one of Lupul/Knuble here, etc.

Like you said, too much. I really think they just need to weather the storm here, even if it means missing the playoffs. Make a minor move like Carle or something, but nothing huge. Unfortunately, we dont have the 1st round pick....

Biron and Knuble were two guys always touted as being very good in the locker room. How much do we miss those guys?

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Old
12-21-2009, 10:10 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Agreed. I understand some moves had to be made, like Umberger, but we didnt need to trade for Carle last year, we could have gone with a much cheaper temporary solution.....which would have resulted in not having to move Upshall, Vaananen, etc. We might still have at least one of Lupul/Knuble here, etc.

Like you said, too much. I really think they just need to weather the storm here, even if it means missing the playoffs. Make a minor move like Carle or something, but nothing huge. Unfortunately, we dont have the 1st round pick....

Biron and Knuble were two guys always touted as being very good in the locker room. How much do we miss those guys?
You and I are pretty much in agreement. Hell, even if I disagreed, its not like I have the answers for the mess we have on our hands right now.

To me, this team was doing fine with the young guys progressing at their own pace. Like you, I understood some of the moves we made and why we had to make them. That's just life in a cap world. But...

I just think we really tried too hard to speed this team into a Cup contender this past offseason, and the younger guys (Carter, Richards, etc) just weren't ready for that. I think the added pressure with the addition of Pronger actually stunted their development (And to be fair, I was totally ok with bringing Pronger on board).

None of the above is meant to be an excuse for any of these guys, but its not like the first time a team has tried to speed along a team towards the Cup, only to have it go off the tracks. I'm afraid we are now about to join the list of teams that have previously done so.

OK, I'm done rambling now

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Old
12-21-2009, 10:24 PM
  #61
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while we may disagree on the talent issue, we CAN agree on the fact that the team is not playing as a team, and is not getting it done.

Despite this, our players still retain value in the trading market! It is time for a trade, we REALLY, need to bring in some other guys so that maybe THEY will have chemistry with our core (richards giroux JVR pronger)

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Old
12-22-2009, 12:14 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
You made my point for me. Its not about talent. This team has enough talent. You don't have to have the best of the best talent-wise to win. But there damn sure ain't enough chemistry, heart or determination on this club. Which was pretty much my point.

This teams problems cut far deeper than a lack of talent.
It isn't as much about chemistry to me as it is about heart and determination. I don't think we have either of the last two. After every single game guys like Pronger and Laviolette describe, in exact words, the problems with this club and say that they need to turn it around. They don't, obviously. Game after game it's the same statements from Pronger about why we're losing yet, even though we know what the problems are, they don't turn it around.

They have the talent to turn it around. That's obvious. Pronger, Richards, Carter, etc. are all capable of turning a close game around. Yet none of them do.

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Old
12-22-2009, 10:07 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbeard7737 View Post
would Flyers fans think the following deal would be fair from Boston:

Krejci, Wheeler, Recchi, Ference, Boston 1st 2010

for Carter and Coburn

Philly:

JVR Richards Briere
Gagne Krejci Wheeler
Hartnell Giroux Recchi

Thoughts??
If we could be so lucky. Sigh. That's a MASSIVE overpayment for two underperforming players. Can't believe there's a 1st thrown in for good measure as well.

Like someone else here said.....where do we sign?

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Old
12-22-2009, 12:40 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by FlyersRKings View Post
If we could be so lucky. Sigh. That's a MASSIVE overpayment for two underperforming players. Can't believe there's a 1st thrown in for good measure as well.

Like someone else here said.....where do we sign?
Well, it's not as if Krejci or Wheeler are tearing it up either. I think Carter has a better chance of rebounding playing the wing with either Savard or Bergeron and Coburn could turn it around playing with someone like Chara or Morris.

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