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Old
12-22-2009, 11:39 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I swear we're going to make something work, even if it's out of spite to the insane MTL and TOR fans running around trying to steal things while overrating their own players.

I'm much more interested in deals that could work. Competent discussions are a must for that.

I understand the cap space issues.

I'll take out MacArthur and try this again.

Remember all of these are under the condition that the Flyers are still doing poorly. If the Flyers do pull out of this funk I'd probably wait until the offseason and try to just move one of Hartnell, Coburn, or Carle as a major piece in a package for Stafford and Enroth.

Offseason:

Hartnell (4.2) + Carle (3.4) = 7.6m

for

Stafford (1.9) + Gaustad (2.3) + Sekera (1.0) + Enroth (N/A) + 2nd = 5.2m

Deadline:

Hartnell (4.2) + Carle (3.4) = 7.6m

for

Stafford (1.9) + Gaustad (2.3) + Lydman (2.9) + Enroth (N/A) + 1st = 7.1m

Oh, if this moves to the off-season, then the forward moves are easier to handle. With Lydman and Tallinder coming off the books, Buffalo doesn't have salary concerns then either. In a perfect world, that would probably be the time to move.

But, sadly, this isn't a perfect world -- I don't think the Flyers necessarily wait that long and Buffalo probably makes a few off-the-radar type moves on or about the deadline to fill their preceived weaknesses.

Gaustad is probably a non-starter for most Buffalo deals. Yes, he's a little on the high side for his role, but he's Miller's right-hand man and roommate on the road. We suspect part of his contract comes from looking to molify Miller prior to Miller being willing to sign the extension.

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12-22-2009, 11:40 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BikeGiftingMan View Post
What if Philly still ended up with less salary though? Something like:

Poms, Sekera, 1st

for

Hartnell, Carle, 3rd
We don't want defense. That was originally a suggestion made by someone else. I just ran with Sekera. Really no interest.

Also, as I mentioned also. Pominville's contract length is too much. If it was two year's less I'd consider him a possible target. Unfortunately though. It's just too long.

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12-22-2009, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Oh, if this moves to the off-season, then the forward moves are easier to handle. With Lydman and Tallinder coming off the books, Buffalo doesn't have salary concerns then either. In a perfect world, that would probably be the time to move.

But, sadly, this isn't a perfect world -- I don't think the Flyers necessarily wait that long and Buffalo probably makes a few off-the-radar type moves on or about the deadline to fill their preceived weaknesses.

Gaustad is probably a non-starter for most Buffalo deals. Yes, he's a little on the high side for his role, but he's Miller's right-hand man and roommate on the road. We suspect part of his contract comes from looking to molify Miller prior to Miller being willing to sign the extension.
Fair enough. I didn't realize Gaustad was that important. One of my best friends is actually a very hardcore Buffalo fan. She loves the team, and Briere actually.

I should've realized how valuable Gaustad was. That's my fault.

I still think we have something here centering around Hartnell for Stafford + Enroth.

Do we need to send a failsafe goalie or lesser goalie prospect back?

Are you still looking for Carle or Coburn?

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12-22-2009, 11:43 AM
  #54
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its important to note, that the cap room created long term for Philly and taken away for Buffalo is a consideration in the trade value.

Philly is creating a LOT of long term cap space in the deals Shafer proposes. This gives them an ability to re-sign guys like Gagne, Coburn, Parent, Emery and give long extensions to guys like Giroux and JVR in a few years.

While Buffalo loses a ton of long term cap space with the contracts of Hartnell and Carle.

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12-22-2009, 11:44 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Hecht is not something we're interested in.

We'd probably be interested in Pominville, but only at the expense of Briere. It would make zero sense to trade Briere for Pominville so it would make zero sense to trade for Pominville.

It would swallow any cap freedom gained from this to try to re-sign Gagne, immediately.

No go.



I still think the major players in this deal would have to be Hartnell for Stafford + Enroth.

There is definitely some confusion on my side as to whether you're interested in Coburn or Carle. I've been getting contradictory messages.
Sorry about that -- I think that confusion is my fault. I'm interested in either of Coburn or Carle and Carle fills the Sabres current need of a productive (or at least historically productive) PP pointman and puck mover. Jame's not interested in Carle, he's after Coburn for a Coburn-Myers "wall of flesh" pairing that is pretty appealling to me as well.


I put Sekera in looking to see if moving Carle out gives the Flyers enough flexibility to be able to make other moves -- it was a cost-savings offer that would need work in order to balance on-ice value.

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12-22-2009, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I can't see Buffalo trading Enroth for Hartnell...

If you want to get crazy and discuss what It would take to get Carter (who is only signed for one more year)... then we can talk about Enroth as part of a very nice return
Carter starts with Myers. I'm sorry, but that's just the way I'm going to respond every time you bring up Carter.

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12-22-2009, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Sorry about that -- I think that confusion is my fault. I'm interested in either of Coburn or Carle and Carle fills the Sabres current need of a productive (or at least historically productive) PP pointman and puck mover. Jame's not interested in Carle, he's after Coburn for a Coburn-Myers "wall of flesh" pairing that is pretty appealling to me as well.


I put Sekera in looking to see if moving Carle out gives the Flyers enough flexibility to be able to make other moves -- it was a cost-savings offer that would need work in order to balance on-ice value.
I'd much rather Coburn as well. Carle seems too inconsistent, but I can't say I've paid too much attn to him ieither.

To bring in a d-man, buffalo would need to ship one out. Sekera is a cheap option, though I suppose Paetsch could go as well, though the difference in value between the two is quite big.

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12-22-2009, 11:50 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Fair enough. I didn't realize Gaustad was that important. One of my best friends is actually a very hardcore Buffalo fan. She loves the team, and Briere actually.

I should've realized how valuable Gaustad was. That's my fault.

I still think we have something here centering around Hartnell for Stafford + Enroth.

Do we need to send a failsafe goalie or lesser goalie prospect back?

Are you still looking for Carle or Coburn?
Buffalo takes on a long term contract, and gets production that Stafford could almost fill on his own. And they give up a top tier goaltending prospect. Arguably, a top 25 prospect in the entire league.

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12-22-2009, 11:51 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BikeGiftingMan View Post
I'd much rather Coburn as well. Carle seems too inconsistent, but I can't say I've paid too much attn to him ieither.

To bring in a d-man, buffalo would need to ship one out. Sekera is a cheap option, though I suppose Paetsch could go as well, though the difference in value between the two is quite big.
Both have the potential to be 2-3 guys on the blueline. Both are from the 2003 draft class meaning they're still pretty young.

Coburn is the bigger, more well-rounded defenseman. He's also a very good skater. He's not necessarily physical though he does very well positionally. Right now he's hit a slump because every once in a while he gets flat-footed. His own lack of confidence has led to issues with his own decisiveness. It's a correctable problem.

Carle is more of a puck-mover, PPQB. He's got a good shot and makes great decisions with the puck. His timing and decision-making in the offensive zone and the point are great. His patience is not. If he has a steady two-way defenseman or elite rock to fall back on he can cut loose. When he cuts loose he has some considerable offensive potential. It's impressive.

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12-22-2009, 11:51 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Fair enough. I didn't realize Gaustad was that important. One of my best friends is actually a very hardcore Buffalo fan. She loves the team, and Briere actually.

I should've realized how valuable Gaustad was. That's my fault.

I still think we have something here centering around Hartnell for Stafford + Enroth.

Do we need to send a failsafe goalie or lesser goalie prospect back?

Are you still looking for Carle or Coburn?
I'm old school -- I tend to look for defensemen first. I think value wise Hartnell for Stafford and Enroth works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
its important to note, that the cap room created long term for Philly and taken away for Buffalo is a consideration in the trade value.

Philly is creating a LOT of long term cap space in the deals Shafer proposes. This gives them an ability to re-sign guys like Gagne, Coburn, Parent, Emery and give long extensions to guys like Giroux and JVR in a few years.

While Buffalo loses a ton of long term cap space with the contracts of Hartnell and Carle.
With Hank and Toni coming off the books this summer, Buffalo will be looking for defense to replace them. Carle's signed to a deal similar to what Tallinder is making now and right in his productive years. Hartnell's deal gives them the banger in the top 6 they want now if they go that way. Coburn I would suspect is looking for money in an RFA deal similar to what Lydman is getting. It does tie up some funds, but it isn't the end of the world.

Unless you're worried about adding a (hated) Eastern rival? Then... well... that I understand. It's why I'm loath to put Enroth into a deal. I mentioned in another thread, it would kill me to see Jhonas turn out but in Black and Orange.




And I'm not too concerned about a throw-in goaltender. If they want extra insurance, I'm sure they can work a seperate deal somewhere for additional depth.


Sorry to go tangential on the Liles idea. I like Carle's deal more.

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12-22-2009, 11:57 AM
  #61
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If Buffalo is going to take long term salary back, then Philly must do the same in some fashion

Considering the contracts, I think Hartnell = Stafford... but then the issue of cap space and long term salary become an issue...

If Buffalo can include a salary dump in the deal, then Hartnell for Stafford is a starting point

BUT... the salary evening, does not get Enroth into the discussion... But I think a combination of Coburn and salary/cap incentives could...

Hartnell, Coburn = 5.6
Buffalo can afford to absord around 1 million more in the deal (leaving some cap space for the deadline)... so they need to get to around 4.1 million heading to Philly

If those parameters were met, I'd include Enroth for Hartnell and Coburn.

the primary reason im not interested in Carle, is that I dont want Buffalo taking on TWO more 4+ million long term contracts. I also think Sekera is rounding into being exactly what Carle is.

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12-22-2009, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Buffalo takes on a long term contract, and gets production that Stafford could almost fill on his own. And they give up a top tier goaltending prospect. Arguably, a top 25 prospect in the entire league.
You have upwards of $10m cap space THIS season. This offseason you're getting like $4m more with defenders coming off the books.

Cap space is not your issue. From what I hear Hartnell would only help your cause.

As far as the top 25 prospect...I deal with prospects. That's my job. If the Flyers were to acquire Enroth, I would not automatically cut loose Emery. Enroth is a possibility, but only if he pans out. I've seen many potential elites fall flat. I like Enroth, but I'm not betting the bank on him like you seem to be doing even with Miller between the pipes.

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12-22-2009, 12:00 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
If Buffalo is going to take long term salary back, then Philly must do the same in some fashion

Considering the contracts, I think Hartnell = Stafford... but then the issue of cap space and long term salary become an issue...

If Buffalo can include a salary dump in the deal, then Hartnell for Stafford is a starting point

BUT... the salary evening, does not get Enroth into the discussion... But I think a combination of Coburn and salary/cap incentives could...

Hartnell, Coburn = 5.6
Buffalo can afford to absord around 1 million more in the deal (leaving some cap space for the deadline)... so they need to get to around 4.1 million heading to Philly

If those parameters were met, I'd include Enroth for Hartnell and Coburn.

the primary reason im not interested in Carle, is that I dont want Buffalo taking on TWO more 4+ million long term contracts. I also think Sekera is rounding into being exactly what Carle is.
Carle's signed for this and two more seasons, going $3.5/$3.5/$3.8 million over this and the next two years. He's not 4+ million.

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12-22-2009, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
If Buffalo is going to take long term salary back, then Philly must do the same in some fashion

Considering the contracts, I think Hartnell = Stafford... but then the issue of cap space and long term salary become an issue...

If Buffalo can include a salary dump in the deal, then Hartnell for Stafford is a starting point

BUT... the salary evening, does not get Enroth into the discussion... But I think a combination of Coburn and salary/cap incentives could...

Hartnell, Coburn = 5.6
Buffalo can afford to absord around 1 million more in the deal (leaving some cap space for the deadline)... so they need to get to around 4.1 million heading to Philly

If those parameters were met, I'd include Enroth for Hartnell and Coburn.

the primary reason im not interested in Carle, is that I dont want Buffalo taking on TWO more 4+ million long term contracts.
Why would you get to include a salary dump? You have tons of unused space and Hartnell is not a salary dump.

You're being unreasonable. Hartnell + Coburn for Stafford + Enroth gets pulled from the table by Philadelphia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Carle's signed for this and two more seasons, going $3.5/$3.5/$3.8 million over this and the next two years. He's not 4+ million.
I couldn't see Coburn getting anymore than Carle. $3.5m a year is the absolute max Coburn could get right now.

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12-22-2009, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I still think we have something here centering around Hartnell for Stafford + Enroth.
This is one of those times where not having a 1st or 2nd round pick hurts Philly (at least the armchair/internet GM version of Philly). If you're getting Stafford and Enroth, we'd need at least a 2nd, and probably a 1st, to make this work.

Even then - Hartnell and a 1st for Stafford and Enroth is still probably something of an overpayment from Buffalo, all things considered.

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12-22-2009, 12:02 PM
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This is one of those times where not having a 1st or 2nd round pick hurts Philly (at least the armchair/internet GM version of Philly). If you're getting Stafford and Enroth, we'd need at least a 2nd, and probably a 1st, to make this work.

Even then - Hartnell and a 1st for Stafford and Enroth is still probably something of an overpayment from Buffalo, all things considered.
Hartnell + 1st is overpayment for Stafford + Enroth?

Alright, I think I'll shop somewhere else.

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12-22-2009, 12:03 PM
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Hartnell, Carle, Coburn = 9.1
for
Stafford, Hecht, Lydman, Enroth, 2nd (conditionally upgrade to first if Coburn re-signs) = 8.3 + Enroth

Philly clears long term contracts. Gets a young top 6 power forward type. Take on a veteran 3rd liner, top tier defensive forward, who had his best years offensively with Briere, and gets a UFA Defensemen that they can pawn for a 2nd rounder at the deadline if they are out of the playoff picture

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12-22-2009, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Why would you get to include a salary dump? You have tons of unused space and Hartnell is not a salary dump.

You're being unreasonable. Hartnell + Coburn for Stafford + Enroth gets pulled from the table by Philadelphia.

I couldn't see Coburn getting anymore than Carle. $3.5m a year is the absolute max Coburn could get right now.
The Sabres are just about 1 million below the cap

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12-22-2009, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Hartnell + 1st is overpayment for Stafford + Enroth?

Alright, I think I'll shop somewhere else.
Thats fair. I'd do that. But Buffalo takes on too much salary...

I think Stafford and Hartnell have relatively equal TRADE value.

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12-22-2009, 12:06 PM
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You have upwards of $10m cap space THIS season.
I think we have just over $1 million in space this year, no where near 10.

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12-22-2009, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Hartnell, Carle, Coburn = 9.1
for
Stafford, Hecht, Lydman, Enroth, 2nd (conditionally upgrade to first if Coburn re-signs) = 8.3 + Enroth

Philly clears long term contracts. Gets a young top 6 power forward type. Take on a veteran 3rd liner, top tier defensive forward, who had his best years offensively with Briere, and gets a UFA Defensemen that they can pawn for a 2nd rounder at the deadline if they are out of the playoff picture
Philly doesn't need to clear long-term contracts.

You keep thinking of our players as invaluable salary dumps when they're really not.

Philly ONLY absolutely HAS to clear either Carle or Coburn since they're the most expendable. Technically it could even be Parent.

That deal is terrible, akin to many MTL proposals. Besides Coburn has to re-sign really. He's an RFA.

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12-22-2009, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
You have upwards of $10m cap space THIS season. This offseason you're getting like $4m more with defenders coming off the books.

Cap space is not your issue. From what I hear Hartnell would only help your cause.

As far as the top 25 prospect...I deal with prospects. That's my job. If the Flyers were to acquire Enroth, I would not automatically cut loose Emery. Enroth is a possibility, but only if he pans out. I've seen many potential elites fall flat. I like Enroth, but I'm not betting the bank on him like you seem to be doing even with Miller between the pipes.
I dont know where you get your numbers... Buffalo has over 55 million committed in cap space...

try your calculator again.

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12-22-2009, 12:08 PM
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I think we have just over $1 million in space this year, no where near 10.
Oh wow. I was reading this offseason's cap space instead of current. My fault.

Any deal will probably take place over the summer anyway.

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12-22-2009, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Philly doesn't need to clear long-term contracts.

You keep thinking of our players as invaluable salary dumps when they're really not.

Philly ONLY absolutely HAS to clear either Carle or Coburn since they're the most expendable. Technically it could even be Parent.

That deal is terrible, akin to many MTL proposals. Besides Coburn has to re-sign really. He's an RFA.
I dont think that at all.

I think Hartnell = Stafford

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12-22-2009, 12:09 PM
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I dont know where you get your numbers... Buffalo has over 55 million committed in cap space...

try your calculator again.
Yeah I was looking at the offseason capspace. Capgeek screwed with me. When the hell did they put in this "live" thing? I thought that looked wrong, but I normally trust capgeek.

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