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Jagr vs. Messier

View Poll Results: Jagr or Messier?
Jagr 101 70.14%
Messier 40 27.78%
Too close to call 3 2.08%
Voters: 144. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-21-2009, 05:19 PM
  #1
unknown33
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Jagr vs. Messier

Who is the better all time player?

Jaromir Jagr


VS.

Mark Messier


Why is this interesting?
- They ranked at #22 (Messier) and #23 (Jagr) in the HOH Top 100 List
- Their careers overlapped for some years
- Two very different types of players
- Jagr had the better prime according to this (61%)

I'd take Jagr.

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Old
12-21-2009, 05:23 PM
  #2
FrozenJagrt
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Anyone who can rock such a high level of mullet-tude and still dominate the league automatically wins discussions like this.

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Old
12-21-2009, 05:27 PM
  #3
bunjay
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jagr was a more talented player who as far as i know never tried to elbow people in the head.

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Old
12-21-2009, 05:57 PM
  #4
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Flattering picture

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Old
12-21-2009, 05:58 PM
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Jagr. Not even close.

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Old
12-22-2009, 10:13 AM
  #6
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jagr was a more talented player who as far as i know never tried to elbow people in the head.
That, plus six cups is why I say Messier. Love Jagr as well though, an absolute offensive beast of a player..

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12-22-2009, 11:47 AM
  #7
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Jagr does not get the huge stud factor on intangibles like Messier did, but no amount of intangibles can overcome the sheer difference in offensive production between these two:

Goals

2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9 = Jagr
8, 9, 9, 9 = Messier

Assists
1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 3, 5, 7, 7, 9 = Jagr
2, 3, 5, 6, 6, 8 = Messier

Points
1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 9 = Jagr
2, 3, 5, 5, 7, 10 = Messier

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Old
12-22-2009, 03:13 PM
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Melnyks Mirage
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That, plus six cups is why I say Messier. Love Jagr as well though, an absolute offensive beast of a player..
Pretty much this. Jagr was a great offensive player and all but Messier could just about lay you out with a concussion, spear you, dirty player with great hands and a leader as well.

I know who I'd want to go to the playoffs with and it's #11.


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Old
12-22-2009, 03:15 PM
  #9
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Jagr. Not even close.
My thoughts.

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Old
12-22-2009, 03:20 PM
  #10
FrozenJagrt
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Pretty much this. Jagr was a great offensive player and all but Messier could just about lay you out with a concussion, spear you, dirty player with great hands and a leader as well.

I know who I'd want to go to the playoffs with and it's #11.

Gotta love the "He was great because of how dirty he was!" comments. And yet, when a guy like Ovechkin does it, people flip out and call for his head. Oh wait, he's Russian, nevermind the fact that he's on pace to be one of the greatest offensive forces the league has ever seen, Europeans throwing elbows=bad, Canadians throwing elbows=good ol time hockey.

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Old
12-22-2009, 03:35 PM
  #11
kevinBOOMBOOMbieksa
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Just too big of an offensive edge for Jagr. Also, I don't much like Messier (imagine that). It is a fairly close argument though. For a lot of people the cups will put messier over the top, however, not quite for me. It is definitely worth noting though, that my opinion of Messier is formulated having not watched his prime and mostly reading what people have had to say about him in the HOH forum.

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Old
12-22-2009, 05:44 PM
  #12
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Jagr and I don't see how this could even be close

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Old
12-22-2009, 05:54 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
Pretty much this. Jagr was a great offensive player and all but Messier could just about lay you out with a concussion, spear you, dirty player with great hands and a leader as well.

I know who I'd want to go to the playoffs with and it's #11.

Right, because it's good to have a dirty player in the playoffs, so that we can be on the PK with 3 minutes to go. Awesome.

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Old
12-22-2009, 06:17 PM
  #14
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Do Messier vs. Sakic next.

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Old
12-22-2009, 06:21 PM
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Right, because it's good to have a dirty player in the playoffs, so that we can be on the PK with 3 minutes to go. Awesome.
Trash talking Conn Smythe winners and 6 time Stanley cup winners about their playoff performances is ****ing stupid.

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Old
12-22-2009, 07:16 PM
  #16
Sonny Lamateena
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Jagr > Messier in the regular season
Messier > Jagr in the playoffs

Very tough call but I will agree with the HOH section and pick Messier by a hair.

Regular Season

Hart Trophys
Messier 2
Jagr 1

Pearson Awards
Messier 2
Jagr 3

Art Ross Trophys
Messier 0
Jagr 5

1st Team All Star
Messier 4
Jagr 7

2nd Team All Star
Messier 1
Jagr 1

Career Goals
Messier 7th all time
Jagr 12th all time

Career Assists
Messier 3rd all time
Jagr 13th all time

Career Points
Messier 2nd all time
Jagr 9th all time

Playoffs

Stanley Cups
Messier 6
Jagr 2

Conn Smythe Trophys
Messier 1
Jagr 0

Career Goals
Messier 2nd all time
Jagr 11th all time

Career Assists
Messier 2nd all time
Jagr 20th all time

Career Points
Messier 2nd all time
Jagr 11th all time

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Old
12-22-2009, 07:27 PM
  #17
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How on earth could someone choose Jagr over Messier?

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Old
12-22-2009, 08:25 PM
  #18
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Taking Jagr over Messier is insanity. Jagr is one of my favorite players all time, but Messier is the second highest point getter ALL TIME, and a .26 PPG difference doesn't cover everything else that Messier brought to the table. Messier might just be the most complete player of all time, Points, Toughness, Leadership.

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Old
12-22-2009, 08:37 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by t3hg00se View Post
Taking Jagr over Messier is insanity. Jagr is one of my favorite players all time, but Messier is the second highest point getter ALL TIME, and a .26 PPG difference doesn't cover everything else that Messier brought to the table. Messier might just be the most complete player of all time, Points, Toughness, Leadership.
Longevity will do that. Jagr has way more top 5 finishes in points, assists, goals, and more top 10 finishes. And he didn't play nearly as long. Messier never dominated the game at any point, Jagr was the best in the world for a few years. His leadership is overblown, it's not a tangible statistic, there's nothing you can truly judge leadership on.

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Old
12-22-2009, 08:40 PM
  #20
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How on earth could someone choose Jagr over Messier?
Because Jagr was better than Messier?

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12-22-2009, 08:46 PM
  #21
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Longevity will do that. Jagr has way more top 5 finishes in points, assists, goals, and more top 10 finishes. And he didn't play nearly as long. Messier never dominated the game at any point, Jagr was the best in the world for a few years. His leadership is overblown, it's not a tangible statistic, there's nothing you can truly judge leadership on.


Voted Messier. Arguably the most complete forward in the game. This is sickening to see Jagr winning this poll.

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Old
12-22-2009, 09:00 PM
  #22
FrozenJagrt
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Originally Posted by King Henrik 30 View Post


Voted Messier. Arguably the most complete forward in the game. This is sickening to see Jagr winning this poll.
Hey that's stellar, he said he was going to do something and he did it, lord knows that's never happened before. People would have called him a massive tool if he didn't win that game. I don't think you can measure leadership.

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Old
12-22-2009, 09:16 PM
  #23
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Messier was a blowhard.

Jagr was clearly the better player. No amount of intangibles make up for the giant discrepancy in production.

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Old
12-23-2009, 12:15 AM
  #24
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Jagr, but it's close. I am a little disgusted at the posts that say "it isn't even close" regardless of which way it's voted. If anyone thinks that a Jagr vs. Messier comparison is a blowout when you take all things considered then you either don't know hockey or chose not to study up on either one of these guys (permitting you didn't see them play).

So what Messier elbowed people! So did Howe! People gave them respect and were scared to death of those guys. They had a fire lit underneath them and you know the old saying, it's easier to put out a fire than start one. Would you ask Ovechkin to change his style even though it's over the edge at times? I wouldn't either. And you wouldn't have wanted Messier to change either.

Jagr on the other hand won 5 Art Ross trophies. I'd put him among the top 5 offensive players of all time. The man was a machine and even though his playoff success doesn't rival Messier's it's still pretty darn good among the all-time greats. Being a worse playoff performer to Messier's 295 points is nothing to be ashamed of.

So the bottom line is this: Jagr has the edge in offense, goal scoring, playmaking, peak value

Messier has the edge in defense, leadership, Cups, playoff portfolio and certainly physicality

Jagr wins this one. But Messier is ahead of other centers like Trottier, Clarke and although it would be fun to debate probably even Sakic. But it isn't even close right...........

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Old
12-23-2009, 12:33 AM
  #25
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Jagr, but it's close. I am a little disgusted at the posts that say "it isn't even close" regardless of which way it's voted. If anyone thinks that a Jagr vs. Messier comparison is a blowout when you take all things considered then you either don't know hockey or chose not to study up on either one of these guys (permitting you didn't see them play).

So what Messier elbowed people! So did Howe! People gave them respect and were scared to death of those guys. They had a fire lit underneath them and you know the old saying, it's easier to put out a fire than start one. Would you ask Ovechkin to change his style even though it's over the edge at times? I wouldn't either. And you wouldn't have wanted Messier to change either.

Jagr on the other hand won 5 Art Ross trophies. I'd put him among the top 5 offensive players of all time. The man was a machine and even though his playoff success doesn't rival Messier's it's still pretty darn good among the all-time greats. Being a worse playoff performer to Messier's 295 points is nothing to be ashamed of.

So the bottom line is this: Jagr has the edge in offense, goal scoring, playmaking, peak value

Messier has the edge in defense, leadership, Cups, playoff portfolio and certainly physicality

Jagr wins this one. But Messier is ahead of other centers like Trottier, Clarke and although it would be fun to debate probably even Sakic. But it isn't even close right...........
Without taking Messier's individual awards at face value (as a forward, he was 2nd and 5th in scoring his Hart years, 3rd in scoring on his own team in his Conn Smythe year), I believe all of Clarke, Trottier, Yzerman and Sakic come out ahead of Messier... and it really isn't even close when up against a player like Jagr.

Come on... we're comparing forwards here -- "Jagr has the edge [and it is no small edge] in offense, goal scoring, playmaking, peak value" and it's still "close"? No way.


Last edited by RabbinsDuck: 12-23-2009 at 12:39 AM.
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