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Jagr vs. Messier

View Poll Results: Jagr or Messier?
Jagr 101 70.14%
Messier 40 27.78%
Too close to call 3 2.08%
Voters: 144. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-23-2009, 12:39 AM
  #26
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Without taking Messier's individual awards at face value (as a forward, he was 2nd and 5th in scoring his Hart years, 3rd in scoring on his own team in his Conn Smythe year), I believe all of Clarke, Trottier, Yzerman and Sakic come out ahead of Messier... and it really isn't even close when up against a player like Jagr.
Which shows you the example of Messier's value that doesn't always show up on the scoresheet. By the way, why wouldn't you take his two Harts at face value? Granted Bourque likely should have won the 1990 one but even if that's the case Messier had 129 points that year and was 2nd in scoring. Even if he loses to Bourque he's 2nd in Hart voting. Still a high level. I didn't even put Yzerman's name down there and there is no way that he comes out ahead of Messier. A poll a while back was done in the HOH section and the consensus was that it was unfair to Yzerman if that tells you something. Messier is definetly ahead of Clarke all-time and only Sakic and Trottier on that list give him a run for his money.

If we are taking scoring into account then Jagr wins this hands down. But throw in intangibles that Jagr didn't have and it narrows the gap. Jagr still wins, but not by a landslide by any means

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Old
12-23-2009, 12:45 AM
  #27
RabbinsDuck
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Which shows you the example of Messier's value that doesn't always show up on the scoresheet. By the way, why wouldn't you take his two Harts at face value? Granted Bourque likely should have won the 1990 one but even if that's the case Messier had 129 points that year and was 2nd in scoring. Even if he loses to Bourque he's 2nd in Hart voting. Still a high level. I didn't even put Yzerman's name down there and there is no way that he comes out ahead of Messier. A poll a while back was done in the HOH section and the consensus was that it was unfair to Yzerman if that tells you something. Messier is definetly ahead of Clarke all-time and only Sakic and Trottier on that list give him a run for his money.

If we are taking scoring into account then Jagr wins this hands down. But throw in intangibles that Jagr didn't have and it narrows the gap. Jagr still wins, but not by a landslide by any means
I value Messier's intangibles, but I do not think he is the only player in NHL history to possess them.

Messier can make up a lot of ground on Jagr with intangibles (though not enough, we are both agreed upon), but not Clarke, Yzerman, Sakic and Trottier... some of whom might actually 'out-intangible' Messier.

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Old
12-23-2009, 01:42 AM
  #28
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Messier had better durability than Trottier and his playoff career is much better. I hope the consensus is that Messier is better than Trottier, Clarke, and Yzerman because honestly only Joe Sakic gives him a run for his money among all those players.

Jagr on the other hand is above the players that people always compare him to. He's better than bossy, espo, lafluer, clarke, messier, trottier, and sakic and there is no argument that will convince me otherwise. I look at all thier careers with an objective base and Jagr just comes out ahead, sorry he's just too good.

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Old
12-23-2009, 01:44 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I value Messier's intangibles, but I do not think he is the only player in NHL history to possess them.

Messier can make up a lot of ground on Jagr with intangibles (though not enough, we are both agreed upon), but not Clarke, Yzerman, Sakic and Trottier... some of whom might actually 'out-intangible' Messier.
Make any excuse you want for Messier having 6 cups and yzerman having two. Even from 1989-1996, when Coffey and Gretzky were long gone. Messier's playoff numbers were much better than Yzerman's. Playoff success is way more important than some random point per game stats.

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12-23-2009, 02:21 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Make any excuse you want for Messier having 6 cups and yzerman having two. Even from 1989-1996, when Coffey and Gretzky were long gone. Messier's playoff numbers were much better than Yzerman's. Playoff success is way more important than some random point per game stats.
I'm sure the Oilers would have gotten by just fine with Yzerman as their 2nd line center instead of Messier, in the 80s.

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12-23-2009, 02:23 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Ace14 View Post
Messier never dominated the game at any point.
hmmm, Never watched the playoffs?

Weren't alive or weren't a hockey fan between the years 1980-1994?

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12-23-2009, 02:23 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Messier had better durability than Trottier and his playoff career is much better. I hope the consensus is that Messier is better than Trottier, Clarke, and Yzerman because honestly only Joe Sakic gives him a run for his money among all those players.
The consensus is that Yzerman and Sakic are "extremely close" so of course he should be in the discussion... and many view Clarke and Trottier as better than both of them.


Last edited by RabbinsDuck: 12-23-2009 at 02:34 AM.
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Old
12-23-2009, 02:37 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I'm sure the Oilers would have gotten by just fine with Yzerman as their 2nd line center instead of Messier, in the 80s.
No, they would rather have the physical guy that would shutdown trottier and bossy instead of another strictly offensive guy. Yzerman was left off the 87 canada cup cuz they didnt want another offensive guy and chose a checker instead.

You ignore the fact that from 1989-1997, coffey and gretz were gone and Messier was still better in the playoffs, well cuz he just is.

As a matter of fact Fedorov was detriot's best playoff player from 1991-2002. So it wouldnt be hard for me to believe that Yzerman just wasnt a playoff monster, just merely good.

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12-23-2009, 02:42 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
The consensus is that Yzerman and Sakic are "extremely close" so of course he should be in the discussion... and many view Clarke and Trottier as better than both of them.
Sakic wins every poll i see when he gets compared to Yzerman.

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12-23-2009, 02:43 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by King Henrik 30 View Post


Voted Messier. Arguably the most complete forward in the game. This is sickening to see Jagr winning this poll.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace14 View Post
Longevity will do that. Jagr has way more top 5 finishes in points, assists, goals, and more top 10 finishes. And he didn't play nearly as long. Messier never dominated the game at any point, Jagr was the best in the world for a few years. His leadership is overblown, it's not a tangible statistic, there's nothing you can truly judge leadership on.

Except the number of rap songs made about a player in windows movie maker.

Notice how the video mentions that in the time out when they were down 2 - 0, not a word was spoken as though it's some sort of epic addition that makes Messier an even better leader. He is such a good leader he lead without any actual cause identifying that his leadership played a role! He telepathetically inspired his team.

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Old
12-23-2009, 02:51 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Sakic wins every poll i see when he gets compared to Yzerman.
Come on, read the comments then.... even if you ignore how close the actual polls are.

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Old
12-23-2009, 03:07 AM
  #37
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Jagr's .26 PPG over Messier in no way shape or form holds a light to everything else that Messier brings to the table. There are few players I love more than Jagr, but it's so clear here that Messier is a step up.

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Old
12-23-2009, 03:46 AM
  #38
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Very difficult to choose.

I don't know how to value intanglibles, but Messier obivously wins in that one. Jagr takes regular season performance but not by huge margin: Jagr was much better at producing offence especially considering the "dead puck" -era, but Messier was very productive up until his Vancouver days as well.

Although not measuring their prime but to put Messiers later career in perspective, In Jagrs last season he was 35 and scored 71 points (25+46) in 82 games played with 5.57 gpg league average. Messier at the same age still scored 84 points (36+48) in 71 games played with 5.83 gpg league average.

After that his career started to go south which might affect the perspective of Messiers prime performance as he went on to play seven seasons.

Messier was better in the playoffs.

Very close, but considering only their on-ice performance, I'd take prime Messier over prime Jagr.

As a lockerroom precence (before the emergence of the "leader" -Messier) I'd take Messier by even slightly larger margin. Still quite close.

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Old
12-23-2009, 05:43 AM
  #39
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Gotta love the "He was great because of how dirty he was!" comments. And yet, when a guy like Ovechkin does it, people flip out and call for his head. Oh wait, he's Russian, nevermind the fact that he's on pace to be one of the greatest offensive forces the league has ever seen, Europeans throwing elbows=bad, Canadians throwing elbows=good ol time hockey.
I think you're overgeneralizing here.

Some of us have no problem with great players who play "nasty" no matter where the hell they come from.

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Old
12-23-2009, 07:18 AM
  #40
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Jagr and it's not even close. And please keep the career stats away from this thread, they don't make much sense in times troubled by lockouts and the KHL.

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Old
12-23-2009, 08:10 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by t3hg00se View Post
Jagr's .26 PPG over Messier in no way shape or form holds a light to everything else that Messier brings to the table. There are few players I love more than Jagr, but it's so clear here that Messier is a step up.
Based on what?

Please don't give me the Cup talk, it's a team game and the Edmonton teams were so stacked it wasn't even funny.

Jagr's playoff performances, considering on what teams he's been, are actually pretty remarkable.
I'm not getting to much into this, it's hard to argument anything when people latch on to the "intagibles" and ignore the era the game was played in, the teammates or the opponents...

Just some quick stats.

Jagr is ranked 4th all time in playoff OT goals (ahead of Mess) and has more playoff GW goals in about 70 less games (15 career playoff OT goals).

At the 1.26 PPG pace, had Jagr played the number of games Mess did (1,756), he would've left him about 325 points behind (projects to 2,212 to Mess' 1,887).

I mean, Jagr's prime came smack dead in the middle of the dead puck era.
Yet the difference in PPG is huge.

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12-23-2009, 08:11 AM
  #42
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Jagr

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12-23-2009, 09:11 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
No, they would rather have the physical guy that would shutdown trottier and bossy instead of another strictly offensive guy. Yzerman was left off the 87 canada cup cuz they didnt want another offensive guy and chose a checker instead.

You ignore the fact that from 1989-1997, coffey and gretz were gone and Messier was still better in the playoffs, well cuz he just is.

As a matter of fact Fedorov was detriot's best playoff player from 1991-2002. So it wouldnt be hard for me to believe that Yzerman just wasnt a playoff monster, just merely good.
Yzerman was capable of playing stronger defensively than Messier, and if his role had changed we would have seen it earlier.

I have a hard time believing Edmonton 'suffers' in any way, shape or form with Clarke, Trottier, Yzerman or Sakic as their 2nd line center instead of Messier.

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12-23-2009, 10:15 AM
  #44
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Jagr but it's close

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Old
12-23-2009, 10:34 AM
  #45
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ok ...

the problem with messier is that he only played good when his team also played good, or: when he was on a good team ... when vancouver wasn't good and the team sucked and everyone played for themselves there it was!: an excellent chance for messier to show off some of his famous legendary untouchable intangibles spotted leadership

but the problem is he didn't, he merely floated around in the neutral zone in a famous legendary attempt to imitate a dead orca ...

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12-23-2009, 12:17 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
I value Messier's intangibles, but I do not think he is the only player in NHL history to possess them.

Messier can make up a lot of ground on Jagr with intangibles (though not enough, we are both agreed upon), but not Clarke, Yzerman, Sakic and Trottier... some of whom might actually 'out-intangible' Messier.
Clarke, Yzerman, Sakic and Trottier don't hit Jagr's level of offense either. They do have some great intangibles that Mess possesses as well but I still feel when you combine Harts, scoring, Cups, playoff record, defense, leadership, physicality that Messier still comes out on top in that group.

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Old
12-23-2009, 12:19 PM
  #47
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ok ...

the problem with messier is that he only played good when his team also played good, or: when he was on a good team ... when vancouver wasn't good and the team sucked and everyone played for themselves there it was!: an excellent chance for messier to show off some of his famous legendary untouchable intangibles spotted leadership

but the problem is he didn't, he merely floated around in the neutral zone in a famous legendary attempt to imitate a dead orca ...
Give him a little bit of a break, he was 36 when he was in Vancouver. You'll find a lot of all time greats have their play decline at that age. I've always found that Messier played okay from 1997-2004 but those years are more of a filler if anything and hs greatness should be truly judged by his 17-18 years preceding that

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12-23-2009, 12:25 PM
  #48
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Give him a little bit of a break, he was 36 when he was in Vancouver. You'll find a lot of all time greats have their play decline at that age.
i wasn't commenting on his play, at least not directly, although it wasn't great [the play i mean ... but he was old and tired, except that he wasn't tired in his arm when he signed the contract]

what i meant is that he at least could have tried to provide some of that famous leadership to try to unify a team in pieces ...


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Old
12-23-2009, 01:06 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Clarke, Yzerman, Sakic and Trottier don't hit Jagr's level of offense either. They do have some great intangibles that Mess possesses as well but I still feel when you combine Harts, scoring, Cups, playoff record, defense, leadership, physicality that Messier still comes out on top in that group.
It's just skimming the surface, however.... you can also put Messier above them all based on career numbers, but of course that is far from accurate as well.

For instance, Trottier, Sakic and Yzerman led their respective teams in scoring their Conn Smythe years -- Messier was 3rd on his own team his Conn Smythe year.

I think every single player mentioned was better than Messier offensively, and all save Jagr were better defensively. That is a lot of ground for Messier's intangibles to make up for.


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Old
12-23-2009, 04:47 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Yzerman was capable of playing stronger defensively than Messier, and if his role had changed we would have seen it earlier.

I have a hard time believing Edmonton 'suffers' in any way, shape or form with Clarke, Trottier, Yzerman or Sakic as their 2nd line center instead of Messier.
Um no, he was thought of as a one dimensional player from 87-1993, dont act like he was the same guy before bowman arrived.

I dont get where you get the idea that he's worse offensively than yzerman and clarke and needs intangibles to make up for it, lol. From 1984-1997, he had the exact same regular season ppg as Yzerman and much better playoff numbers, even after gretzky, kurri and coffey were gone, messier still put up better numbers than yzerman okay you detriot homerism.

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