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Jagr vs. Messier

View Poll Results: Jagr or Messier?
Jagr 101 70.63%
Messier 39 27.27%
Too close to call 3 2.10%
Voters: 143. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-23-2009, 06:31 PM
  #51
RabbinsDuck
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Um no, he was thought of as a one dimensional player from 87-1993, dont act like he was the same guy before bowman arrived.

I dont get where you get the idea that he's worse offensively than yzerman and clarke and needs intangibles to make up for it, lol. From 1984-1997, he had the exact same regular season ppg as Yzerman and much better playoff numbers, even after gretzky, kurri and coffey were gone, messier still put up better numbers than yzerman okay you detriot homerism.
Yzerman was just as capable as Messier, defensively (both were slightly better than average), early in his career (he has always been a regular on the PK and he was often double-shifted on a checking line against other teams' top lines in the 80s), but yes, did become much better upon Bowman's arrival. My point was that if he found himself on a 2nd line in Edmonton and his duties required more two-way play, we both know he was more than capable of it - and better than Messier.

Yzerman had a higher GPG, PPG and 68 more total points than Messier during that stretch (or pretty much any stretch - whether it is 1, 3, 5, 10 or 15 years) and was on much worse teams for many of them. Yeah, only a homer would suggest Yzerman was better than Messier offensively.

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Old
12-23-2009, 06:47 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Yzerman was just as capable as Messier, defensively (both were slightly better than average), early in his career (he has always been a regular on the PK and he was often double-shifted on a checking line against other teams' top lines in the 80s), but yes, did become much better upon Bowman's arrival. My point was that if he found himself on a 2nd line in Edmonton and his duties required more two-way play, we both know he was more than capable of it - and better than Messier.

Yzerman had a higher GPG, PPG and 68 more total points than Messier during that stretch (or pretty much any stretch - whether it is 1, 3, 5, 10 or 15 years) and was on much worse teams for many of them. Yeah, only a homer would suggest Yzerman was better than Messier offensively.
The gap in thier regular season from 1984-1997 was extremely thin, nothing compared to the overwhelming gap Messier had in the playoffs, you know the stats that actually matter more. Superstars score no matter who they play with, but you have to keep making excuses for yzerman. Messier also had a phyiscal gap which yzerman totally lacked. He wasnt better than messier in two way play back in those days so quit suggesting false myths.

Messier's top 10 point finishes are also better, so yeah I would say Messier probably had the advantage. Yzerman got to play first line basically his whole career, he didnt get limited time like the way messier did. Yzerman doesnt put up 139-155 point seasons if he is the second line center with glenn anderson, he would get 5-10 fewer minutes of ice time if he was playing on those oilers.

Messier's finishes in the top 10 are better, hes got 2 harts and yzerman has none, hes got way more playoff points. But Yzerman is supposedly better because he could have done this, or he could have done that, haha sorry not going to cut it.

The last time hockey news made thier ranking, they overrated Yzerman nicely, yet they still had him below Messier,

Messier had the better ppg from 1984-1997, his ppg was better in 1990 and 1992, his ppg was also better from 1995 lockout till 1997. Yzerman was better offensively in 88, 89, 91, 93 and 94. Good for him, Messier's playoff success from 88-94 more than covers for that when Yzerman was being labelled the playoff no show.

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12-23-2009, 06:56 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
The gap in thier regular season from 1984-1997 was extremely thin, nothing compared to the overwhelming gap Messier had in the playoffs, you know the stats that actually matter more. Superstars score no matter who they play with, but you have to keep making excuses for yzerman. Messier also had a phyiscal gap which yzerman totally lacked. He wasnt better than messier in two way play back in those days so quit suggesting false myths.

Messier's top 10 point finishes are also better, so yeah I would say Messier probably had the advantage. Yzerman got to play first line basically his whole career, he didnt get limited time like the way messier did. Yzerman doesnt put up 139-155 point seasons if he is the second line center with glenn anderson, he would get 5-10 fewer minutes of ice time if he was playing on those oilers.

Messier's finishes in the top 10 are better, hes got 2 harts and yzerman has none, hes got way more playoff points. But Yzerman is supposedly better because he could have done this, or he could have done that, haha sorry not going to cut it.

The last time hockey news made thier ranking, they overrated Yzerman nicely, yet they still had him below Messier,

Messier had the better ppg from 1984-1997, his ppg was better in 1990 and 1992, his ppg was also better from 1995 lockout till 1997. Yzerman was better offensively in 88, 89, 91, 93 and 94. Good for him, Messier's playoff success from 88-94 more than covers for that when Yzerman was being labelled the playoff no show.
Didn't the Hockey News have Messier in the Top 10? Yeah, it's Yzerman who was overrated.

This is not a "could have" argument - Yzerman outperformed Messier offensively pretty much for any stretch, on worse teams. Glenn Anderson was far better than any wing Yzerman had in the 80s, by the way. When he focused on it, he was much better than Messier defensively.... but still received Selke votes in the 80s.

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Old
12-23-2009, 07:07 PM
  #54
ushvinder
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Didn't the Hockey News have Messier in the Top 10? Yeah, it's Yzerman who was overrated.

This is not a "could have" argument - Yzerman outperformed Messier offensively pretty much for any stretch, on worse teams. Glenn Anderson was far better than any wing Yzerman had in the 80s, by the way. When he focused on it, he was much better than Messier defensively.... but still received Selke votes in the 80s.
Any stretch, Messier was better during thier first 4 years in the league, he also was better offensively from 95-97 and also in 1990 and 1992. Yeah nice logic kid. In 1990 and 1992 both put up big points, yet the hart trophy voters made it very clear who they thought was better.

In 1993 Yzerman scored 137 points and was a non factor in hart trophy. In 1991 and 1992, again barely any votes for him. 1988 and 1989 are the only years he was even really relevant for the hart trophy, while Messier won it twice.

Messier is even at a disadvantage since he wasn't going to get hart trophy votes from 83-88 because of gretzky, and he still has more overall hart trophy shares than yzerman, that his hilarious.

From 1991 to 1997, Yzerman was well below a point per game in the playoffs and he started playing with guys like Coffey, Shanahan, Fedorov and thier defence got better with lidstrom and konstantinov. He is overrated. The only time he started putting up great numbers is when detriot became a ridiculously stacked team with 8-9 hall of famers. His playoff resume is rather mediocre for a top 40 player.


Last edited by ushvinder: 12-23-2009 at 07:21 PM.
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12-23-2009, 07:39 PM
  #55
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Messier.

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Old
12-23-2009, 07:43 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Any stretch, Messier was better during thier first 4 years in the league, he also was better offensively from 95-97 and also in 1990 and 1992. Yeah nice logic kid. In 1990 and 1992 both put up big points, yet the hart trophy voters made it very clear who they thought was better.

In 1993 Yzerman scored 137 points and was a non factor in hart trophy. In 1991 and 1992, again barely any votes for him. 1988 and 1989 are the only years he was even really relevant for the hart trophy, while Messier won it twice.

Messier is even at a disadvantage since he wasn't going to get hart trophy votes from 83-88 because of gretzky, and he still has more overall hart trophy shares than yzerman, that his hilarious.

From 1991 to 1997, Yzerman was well below a point per game in the playoffs and he started playing with guys like Coffey, Shanahan, Fedorov and thier defence got better with lidstrom and konstantinov. He is overrated. The only time he started putting up great numbers is when detriot became a ridiculously stacked team with 8-9 hall of famers. His playoff resume is rather mediocre for a top 40 player.
What years from 83-87 did Messier 'deserve' Hart consideration?

Yzerman did lead two Stanley Cup winning teams in playoff scoring... how many times did Messier do that in his 6 Cup wins?

Your condescending tone is cute, but I have very little interest in continuing to converse with someone who calls me "kid", just like I am not interested in talking with gas station attendants who call me "boss".


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Old
12-23-2009, 09:04 PM
  #57
Sonny Lamateena
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Regular season and playoffs combined:

Yzerman
1710 GP 1940 Pts 1.13 PPG
Averaged 93 Points every 82 games for 21 Seasons

Messier
1992 GP 2182 Pts 1.10 PPG
Averaged 90 Points every 82 games for 24 Seasons

Their offensive production is basically a wash.

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Old
12-23-2009, 09:16 PM
  #58
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I can't believe this poll is as lopsided as it is. I know Messier could be a real doosh now and then, but come on, it's Mark Messier! Jagr might have been more talented and the bigger offensive threat, so I can understand why people would vote for him. Yet, I just think this should be so much closer than it is. This is coming from a Devils' fan who can't stand the guy, but I gotta go with Messier on this one.

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Old
12-23-2009, 10:00 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
What years from 83-87 did Messier 'deserve' Hart consideration?

Yzerman did lead two Stanley Cup winning teams in playoff scoring... how many times did Messier do that in his 6 Cup wins?

Your condescending tone is cute, but I have very little interest in continuing to converse with someone who calls me "kid", just like I am not interested in talking with gas station attendants who call me "boss".
In 1987 Messier was tied 3rd in scoring, remove Gretzky from the picture and Messier and Lemieux would have been the top two scorers in the league. That would have easily given him hart consideration.

Messier did tie for first in scoring in 1990 and he was the captain of that team. Big whoop Yzerman lead detriot in scoring in 1998, so he outpointed his defensemen and an inactive Fedorov, bravo Yzerman. I guess that makes him better in the playoffs. Messier also never averaged 0.65 ppg in the playoffs the way Yzerman did in 1997.

The two teams that Yzerman competed against where the 1998 Capitals and the 2002 Hurricanes, two of the worst teams to ever reach the finals. At least Messier won his cups against good philly and boston teams, hell Vancouver 1994 team would beat either of the teams that Detriot played.

Your arguments for yzerman's superiority is goals per game and some form of offensive advantage that really doesnt exist. If yzerman played 3 more seasons like the way Messier did, his ppg would have been 1.10 or even less. Yzerman holds no offensive advantage.

The gap in offense between Messier and Jagr is big, but the gap between Yzerman and Messier is basically a wash. Which leaves Messier with better top 10 rankings, better hart trophy voting, and more playoff success.

According to your criteria, Marcel Dionne would blow Yzerman out of the water. The offensive gap between Dionne and Yzerman is way bigger than any gap between Messier and Yzerman.

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12-23-2009, 10:06 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post

For instance, Trottier, Sakic and Yzerman led their respective teams in scoring their Conn Smythe years -- Messier was 3rd on his own team his Conn Smythe year.
Not saying Messier's Conn Smythe play was better than theirs, but that's kind of a weird argument there. It's not like any of those guys would have a snowball's chance in hell of outscoring Wayne Gretzky and his right-hand-man, anyway. He'd suck up their icetime and their points.

I was too young to watch Messier's play during that run, but it's kind of pointless discussing his point total, since that's obviously not what he won it on, and there's no way he could have.


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12-24-2009, 12:02 AM
  #61
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Hey that's stellar, he said he was going to do something and he did it, lord knows that's never happened before. People would have called him a massive tool if he didn't win that game. I don't think you can measure leadership.
While I agree that it is way too hard to measure leadership and compare it to other players, it is still possible to realize a good leader when you see one. I'm not saying that "the guarantee" automatically makes him one of the best leaders of all time, but carrying the team on his back in the third takes a tremendous amount of leadership. Also take into consideration that it was a elimination game, against a rival team,and the organization he was playing for had not won the cup for 54 years. On top of that, he guaranteed a victory to what is arguably the most well-known media in the world.

Putting on the performance he did took leadership. I still agree with you to an extent though. While it is very unfair to say that one captain is better then another, leadership can be seen on the ice by the fans.

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12-24-2009, 12:08 AM
  #62
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Except the number of rap songs made about a player in windows movie maker.

Notice how the video mentions that in the time out when they were down 2 - 0, not a word was spoken as though it's some sort of epic addition that makes Messier an even better leader. He is such a good leader he lead without any actual cause identifying that his leadership played a role! He telepathetically inspired his team.
Looks like you completely missed the whole point of the situation. Which is not surprising to me, considering the immaturity in your post . His leadership was shown on the ice, by carrying a team on his back during an elimination game. We weren't in the locker room in between periods to see if he spoke to the team. The video mentioned that not a word was said during the time out, none of the fans know what happened in the locker room in between periods.

I would expect you to understand that, but I guess when you say things like:

Quote:
Except the number of rap songs made about a player in windows movie maker.
Quote:
He is such a good leader he lead without any actual cause identifying that his leadership played a role! He telepathetically inspired his team.
It isn't surprising to see that you missed the whole point of the situation.

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Old
12-24-2009, 12:18 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
It's just skimming the surface, however.... you can also put Messier above them all based on career numbers, but of course that is far from accurate as well.

For instance, Trottier, Sakic and Yzerman led their respective teams in scoring their Conn Smythe years -- Messier was 3rd on his own team his Conn Smythe year.

I think every single player mentioned was better than Messier offensively, and all save Jagr were better defensively. That is a lot of ground for Messier's intangibles to make up for.
Career numbers are not what I base Messier's career value on. Longevity is a factor but like I have said before you always judge a player by his peers. Yzerman was never a phenomenal offensive scorer and defensive specialist at the same time by the way. Clarke's peak was great, but not quite long enough and he's by far the worst playoff performer out of all 5 of those guys. Messier beats both of them hands down even though Clarke was better defensively. Like I said before Sakic and Trottier have things going for them in a comparison with Messier. All three have a Conn Smythe, along with another year where they COULD have won it. Sakic and Trottier have a Hart, Messier has two. Here is how they rank in top 10 scoring in their career:

Sakic - 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 7, 9, 10,
Messier - 2, 4, 6, 7, 7, 10
Trottier - 1, 2, 5, 6, 8

The edge goes to Sakic in that department for sure. Sakic is very much comparable to Messier. And Sakic can be thoroughly debated with Jagr too. Which is why Messier is in the picture as well. Besides no one would have outscored Gretzky in the playoffs at that time anyways.

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12-24-2009, 12:20 AM
  #64
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Not saying Messier's Conn Smythe play was better than theirs, but that's kind of a weird argument there. It's not like any of those guys would have a snowball's chance in hell of outscoring Wayne Gretzky and his right-hand-man, anyway. He'd suck up their icetime and their points.

I was too young to watch Messier's play during that run, but it's kind of pointless discussing his point total, since that's obviously not what he won it on, and there's no way he could have.
You sort of missed my point, but then went on to drive it right home.
Was Messier really more valuable than Gretzky in the 1984 playoffs? He certainly wasn't the better player.

Every single one of his major individual awards is just like that - certainly not overwhelming at best, and outright tampering at worst (his Hart over Bourque). Maybe I am alone, but I certainly do not value Messier's Harts and Conn Smythe as heavily as I do others. He certainly is not better than Jagr, but at the end of the day Messier has a Conn Smythe and one more Hart over Jagr... and that's enough for many. That's fine, but I disagree.

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12-24-2009, 12:39 AM
  #65
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Career numbers are not what I base Messier's career value on. Longevity is a factor but like I have said before you always judge a player by his peers. Yzerman was never a phenomenal offensive scorer and defensive specialist at the same time by the way. Clarke's peak was great, but not quite long enough and he's by far the worst playoff performer out of all 5 of those guys. Messier beats both of them hands down even though Clarke was better defensively. Like I said before Sakic and Trottier have things going for them in a comparison with Messier. All three have a Conn Smythe, along with another year where they COULD have won it. Sakic and Trottier have a Hart, Messier has two. Here is how they rank in top 10 scoring in their career:

Sakic - 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 7, 9, 10,
Messier - 2, 4, 6, 7, 7, 10
Trottier - 1, 2, 5, 6, 8

The edge goes to Sakic in that department for sure. Sakic is very much comparable to Messier. And Sakic can be thoroughly debated with Jagr too. Which is why Messier is in the picture as well. Besides no one would have outscored Gretzky in the playoffs at that time anyways.
Sakic gets the "edge"? It's really not that close, and Sakic was better defensively and had numerous intangibles as well.

Messier was being outscored in the playoffs by not only Gretzky and Kurri, but often by Anderson and Coffey as well. It's actually kind of surprising. He goes to New York and is consistently outscored by a defenseman (not named Orr) in the post-season.

I've never claimed Yzerman was elite offensively and defensively at the same time (though his Selke win he was top 10 in points, at the age of 34... and several of his later Cup runs were up there - leading the team in points while being a top penalty killer), but that he was far from your typical 'all-offense all-the-time' elite forward during the 80s. He was certainly on par with Messier defensively, though without the physical edge. They both received a smattering of Selke votes to reflect that.

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12-24-2009, 12:53 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Career numbers are not what I base Messier's career value on. Longevity is a factor but like I have said before you always judge a player by his peers. Yzerman was never a phenomenal offensive scorer and defensive specialist at the same time by the way. Clarke's peak was great, but not quite long enough and he's by far the worst playoff performer out of all 5 of those guys. Messier beats both of them hands down even though Clarke was better defensively. Like I said before Sakic and Trottier have things going for them in a comparison with Messier. All three have a Conn Smythe, along with another year where they COULD have won it. Sakic and Trottier have a Hart, Messier has two. Here is how they rank in top 10 scoring in their career:

Sakic - 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 7, 9, 10,
Messier - 2, 4, 6, 7, 7, 10
Trottier - 1, 2, 5, 6, 8

The edge goes to Sakic in that department for sure. Sakic is very much comparable to Messier. And Sakic can be thoroughly debated with Jagr too. Which is why Messier is in the picture as well. Besides no one would have outscored Gretzky in the playoffs at that time anyways.
messier was 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7, 10.

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12-24-2009, 12:54 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Sakic gets the "edge"? It's really not that close, and Sakic was better defensively and had numerous intangibles as well.

Messier was being outscored in the playoffs by not only Gretzky and Kurri, but often by Anderson and Coffey as well. It's actually kind of surprising. He goes to New York and is consistently outscored by a defenseman (not named Orr) in the post-season.

I've never claimed Yzerman was elite offensively and defensively at the same time (though his Selke win he was top 10 in points, at the age of 34... and several of his later Cup runs were up there - leading the team in points while being a top penalty killer), but that he was far from your typical 'all-offense all-the-time' elite forward during the 80s. He was certainly on par with Messier defensively, though without the physical edge. They both received a smattering of Selke votes to reflect that.
yzerman was never outscored by fedorov, o wait fedorov lead detriot in scoring 9 times.

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12-24-2009, 05:34 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
yzerman was never outscored by fedorov, o wait fedorov lead detriot in scoring 9 times.
Have you even read the post you quoted?

He said Yzerman led the team in scoring several times.
It didn't say Fedorov never outscored him or whatever...

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12-24-2009, 05:12 PM
  #69
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Have you even read the post you quoted?

He said Yzerman led the team in scoring several times.
It didn't say Fedorov never outscored him or whatever...
Messier has lead his team in scoring 3 or 4 times and the rest of the time he was 2nd or 3rd. Yzerman had nick lidstrom and fedorov as his competition to outscore. It still doesnt change the fact that Messier is so much better in the playoffs.

Detriot also played 2 extremely weak teams in 1998 and 2002 to make the finals, while Messier played respectable teams to win the cup. The 87 flyers and 94 canucks would mop the floor with those hurricanes.

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12-25-2009, 02:29 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Messier has lead his team in scoring 3 or 4 times and the rest of the time he was 2nd or 3rd. Yzerman had nick lidstrom and fedorov as his competition to outscore. It still doesnt change the fact that Messier is so much better in the playoffs.

Detriot also played 2 extremely weak teams in 1998 and 2002 to make the finals, while Messier played respectable teams to win the cup. The 87 flyers and 94 canucks would mop the floor with those hurricanes.
What kind of completely flawed reasoning is that?
Since when do extremely weak teams make SC Finals?

Even so, Detroit still had to come out of the West (beating that stacked Avs team in 2002 for example).

BTW, if we're playing "that" game, I do think Stevie Y. and Sakic were better leaders than Mess.
His "guarantee" got so much press, yet when he came back to NYR some years later, on a bought and stacked-team, he made another guarantee, of making playoffs, and that team failed miserably.

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12-25-2009, 02:43 AM
  #71
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What kind of completely flawed reasoning is that?
Since when do extremely weak teams make SC Finals?

Even so, Detroit still had to come out of the West (beating that stacked Avs team in 2002 for example).

BTW, if we're playing "that" game, I do think Stevie Y. and Sakic were better leaders than Mess.
His "guarantee" got so much press, yet when he came back to NYR some years later, on a bought and stacked-team, he made another guarantee, of making playoffs, and that team failed miserably.
At least he didnt need to play on a team with 9 hall of famers just to win another cup. He doesn't need to make promises, his playoff legacy is better than Yzerman's.

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12-25-2009, 06:03 AM
  #72
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Jagr by a hair.

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12-25-2009, 06:59 AM
  #73
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Oh God, this mythocal "leadership" that gets tossed out in alot of polls, when a player is clearly inferior.

Jagr lead the team by scoring and making the other teams defenders look like amateurs.

This is all Jagr, and it's not even close.




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12-25-2009, 07:04 AM
  #74
Tender Rip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
Jagr by a hair.
Jagr by a mullet.

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Old
12-25-2009, 08:06 AM
  #75
thefifthsedin*
 
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jagr came out of lemieux's shadow and won 5 scoring titles, messier came out of gretzky's shadow and didn't won any scoring titles ... the only thing messier has on jagr is much more games played, 483, and thus more total points, 288, and a neat gretzky affected playoff record

although messier also played more than jagr in a higher scoring era, the 80's, he can't top any of jagr's highs in goals, assists or points

points jagr 149, messier 129
goals jagr 62, 54, 52, messier 50, 48, 47
assists jagr 87, 83, messier 84, 74

... oh, and jagr didn't have to elbow people in the head to do it

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