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12/22/09 Is Brodeur's record as amazing as Sawchuk's?

View Poll Results: Is Brodeur's record as amazing as Sawchuk's?
No, you can't compare between different eras 17 26.15%
Yes, its a record that has been broken 44 67.69%
meh some records are sorta comparible 3 4.62%
other 1 1.54%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-22-2009, 06:39 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OilerNut View Post
I don't buy that. Not every team was an all star team. The talent pool now is a lot greater. Back then you had just players from north america, almost all of them being Canadian.
Were talking 6 teams vs 30.

The talent pool and potential draw of players was greater back then. Even if most were from Canada.

Right now 52% of players in the NHL are Canadian and so essentially stocking the equivalent of 15-16clubs.

http://www.fromtherink.com/2008/11/2...nationality-52

So yes Canada stocking only a 6 team league equals a collection of Allstar lineups.

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12-22-2009, 06:53 PM
  #27
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Its hard to compare the 2 goalies because they did play in different era's. The game was so much different back then.

If you put Brodeur on the same teams as Sawchuk I bet you that Brodeur would have posted more shutouts than Sawchuk did simply because the players are better today then they were back then, especially the goalies. That's why all these new rules have been brought into the game to increase goals, because goalies are that much better now.

In any era, I don't care what the average goals per game were, a shut out is hard to get. I made a t-shirt once with this on the back to show that very point.

If you look at their career GAA Sawchuck was 2.45 and brodeur is at 2.17. Thats not a huge difference in terms of being able to get a shutout in any given game. Both goalies gave up just over 2 goals a game. Sawchuk did do it in 972 games, where as Brodeur did it in 1032 which is a 60 game difference, Brodeur averages 62 games a season so far, Sawchuk 46 games per season.

Sawchuk got most of his SO's in his first 5 full seasons with the Wings. From 51-55 he got 56 SO's averaging over 10 per season. His GAA was below 2 every year that year.

In 51 the Wings finished 1st in the league with 101 points, 6 points ahead of the leafs. Chicago finished last with 13 wins 36 points. Sawchuk had 11 SO's

In 52 they finished 1st with 100 points which was 22 points ahead of the second place Canadiens. Chicago finished last with 17 wins 43 points. Sawchuk had 12 SO's

In 53 they finished 1st with 90 points, 15 points ahead of the second place Canadiens. New York finished last with 17 wins 50 points. Sawchuk had 9 SO's

In 54 they finished in 1st place with 88 points, 7 points ahead of the Canadiens. Chicago finished last with 12 wins 31 points. Sawchuk had 12 SO's

In 55 they finished in 1st place with 95 points, 2 points ahead of the Canadiens. Chicago finished last with 13 wins 43 points. Sawchuk had 12 SO's

In all of those years their was a team powerhouse and Sawchuck racked up 56 of his 103 SO's.

As for the comment about not having weak sister teams to play against, I think that is completely opposite. Back then they played every team what 14 times a season? So they got to play the worst team 14 times. Brodeur gets to play the worst team a max 6 times now, and even less through the majority of his career. And i would argue that the worst team in the 50's was worse then than it is now. The league is on such a level playing field that teams don't finish with a .58 PTS/GM, which would be a 48 point season over 82 games (yes i know loser points, but its till a big difference to go from 48 to 61).

The more i look at it the more I respect Brodeur's record. Maybe if I look at brodeur's career as closely as I've looked at Sawchuk's I would see the same thing, but I don't think that's the case.

And don't get me wrong, Sawchuk was probably an amazing goalie and we are splitting hairs here, but i think Brodeur deserves every ounce of his record.

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Old
12-22-2009, 06:56 PM
  #28
Oil Gauge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Were talking 6 teams vs 30.

The talent pool and potential draw of players was greater back then. Even if most were from Canada.

Right now 52% of players in the NHL are Canadian and so essentially stocking the equivalent of 15-16clubs.

http://www.fromtherink.com/2008/11/2...nationality-52

So yes Canada stocking only a 6 team league equals a collection of Allstar lineups.
I think you should read my post. It doesn't really matter what the talent pool was and how many teams their are, its more about how it is dispersed. In todays NHL it is a lot more evenly dispersed than it was in the 50's.

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12-22-2009, 07:12 PM
  #29
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I would say his record is more amazing if you were to compare.

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12-22-2009, 07:32 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
I think you should read my post. It doesn't really matter what the talent pool was and how many teams their are, its more about how it is dispersed. In todays NHL it is a lot more evenly dispersed than it was in the 50's.
I still disagree.

But like I said there were less GP in those years and typically 70 during Sawchuks career vs 82 in Brodeurs.

As for playing the weak sister 14 times pick your poison.

As an example of the type of quality of opponent Sawchuk faced in his career this is the last place weak sister opponent the last year of the 6 team league.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000321967.html

By any accounts a legendary all star team and especially by todays standards.

Heres the other club Sawchuk faced that missed the playoffs that year: (Another legendary lineup)

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000341967.html

Don't kid yourself all the clubs were good back then. You'd be hard pressed to find weak lineups from those years.


Last edited by Replacement: 12-22-2009 at 07:40 PM.
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Old
12-22-2009, 07:52 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I still disagree.

But like I said there were less GP in those years and typically 70 during Sawchuks career vs 82 in Brodeurs.

As for playing the weak sister 14 times pick your poison.

As an example of the type of quality of opponent Sawchuk faced in his career this is the last place weak sister opponent the last year of the 6 team league.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000321967.html

By any accounts a legendary all star team and especially by todays standards.

Don't kid yourself all the clubs were good back then. You'd be hard pressed to find weak lineups from those years.
And they managed 17-43-10 44 PTS, and Sawchuk only had 2 shutouts that season. Edit (and only played 28 games, if you are going to try to argue this angle why don't you at least pick a year that is relevant to the discussion?)

You can't compare the talent on a team in a 6 team league to the talent on a team in a 30 team league. That would be like taking the bottom 7 teams from the western conference and letting the top 8 teams take the best players from them. Then let the Western Conference winner play the Eastern conference winner and see who wins. I have a feeling it might be the western conference winner, but they clearly had an advantage of choosing their players from a larger talent pool.

The talent pool and the the amount of teams doesn't really matter. Whether its 30 good players split between 6 teams, or 100 good players split between 30 teams. All the teams have the same opportunity to acquire as many of those good players as they can. Now i know it wasn't exactly even back in the day because of teams like the Habs who basically owned all of the french players, but that just helps support the fact that the weaker teams in the 50's were weaker than the weak teams today.


Last edited by Oil Gauge: 12-22-2009 at 08:02 PM.
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Old
12-22-2009, 08:06 PM
  #32
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Lets put it this way, comparing teams from the 60's to teams from now based on their lineups is like comparing 2010 Olympic teams to 2010 NHL teams. It doesn't work.

The Olympic teams obviously have access to a larger % of the talent pool than the NHL teams do, simply based on the amount of teams drawing from the exact same pool.



EDIT:

Today's NHL is comprised of 75% North American born players. Drop the league to 6 teams and I bet you you will find the teams to be better than they were in the 50's and 60's.

The only legitimate point I can see from your argument is that even when you are playing a last place team from the 50's you still have to worry about

51' Black Hawks Roy Conacher 70 26 24 50
52' Black Hawks Bill Mosienko 70 31 22 53
53' Rangers Wally Hergesheimer 70 30 29 59
54' Black Hawks Larry Wilson 66 9 33 42
55' Black Hawks Red Sullivan 70 19 42 61
56' Black Hawks Red Sullivan 63 14 26 40

I'll stop there because in those 6 years Sawchuk recorded 65 shutouts.


Last edited by Oil Gauge: 12-22-2009 at 08:23 PM.
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12-22-2009, 08:16 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
And they managed 17-43-10 44 PTS, and Sawchuk only had 2 shutouts that season. Edit (and only played 28 games, if you are going to try to argue this angle why don't you at least pick a year that is relevant to the discussion?)
I could pick any year and you could too. Those links demonstrate the depth of the poorest teams in the 6 team era. Pts obtained btw is irrelevant in this discussion. Consider more that the salient point is what kind of goalscorers did Sawchuk typically have to endure to get his shutouts.

Quote:
You can't compare the talent on a team in a 6 team league to the talent on a team in a 30 team league. That would be like taking the bottom 7 teams from the western conference and letting the top 8 teams take the best players from them. Then let the Western Conference winner play the Eastern conference winner and see who wins. I have a feeling it might be the western conference winner, but they clearly had an advantage of choosing their players from a larger talent pool.
Not sure what you are saying here. I'm the one saying the whole comparison is invalid.

Quote:
The talent pool and the the amount of teams doesn't really matter. Whether its 30 good players split between 6 teams, or 100 good players split between 30 teams. All the teams have the same opportunity to acquire as many of those good players as they can. Now i know it wasn't exactly even back in the day because of teams like the Habs who basically owned all of the french players, but that just helps support the fact that the weaker teams in the 50's were weaker than the weak teams today.
Well heres the weakest team from 1957 then:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000381958.html

Every club back then had catchment areas and hat quite the stock to pick from.

Hell compare the goal scoring potential in the present Oiler lineup with the worst club you could find anywhere in the NHL in the 50's.

Any of those clubs had better gun slingers than the worst of teams today.

Which is the whole point in consideration of who might have an easier time compiling shutouts.

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12-22-2009, 08:54 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post

Well heres the weakest team from 1957 then:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...000381958.html

Every club back then had catchment areas and hat quite the stock to pick from.

Hell compare the goal scoring potential in the present Oiler lineup with the worst club you could find anywhere in the NHL in the 50's.

Any of those clubs had better gun slingers than the worst of teams today.

Which is the whole point in consideration of who might have an easier time compiling shutouts.
Ok so the 1958 leafs leading scorer.
17 Dick Duff 65GP 26 G 23 A 49 PTS

He scored an astronomical 0.4 Goals per game. Not really the scoring threat that makes getting a shutout that hard.

I see what your saying about the other teams having better players, but they are still the worst team for a reason. A look at their leading scorers .4 G/GM should indicate that it is not that hard to shut down a bad team. And while the worst team still had good players, that also means that the best team ha even better players. there were probably no weak 5th and 6th d-men type of players that you have today.

At the end of the day i look at the 6 years where Sawchuck tallied 65 shutouts with by far the best team in the league in front of him. I look at 51'-55' where he amassed 56 of his 103 SO's with a SV% of 1.93. He never posted a SV% under 2.00 after 55'. I ask my self, was that not just a byproduct of an amazing team and a good goalie?

The Devils have been a good team for a long time, but i don't think Brodeur had that kind of team over 5 years to allow him to tally up the SO's.

Imagine if Brodeur played for the red Wings for his entire Career?

Like I said they are both amazing goalies and both records are phenomenal, but i put Brodeur ahead of Sawchuk.


Last edited by Oil Gauge: 12-22-2009 at 09:03 PM.
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12-22-2009, 10:12 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Gauge View Post
Ok so the 1958 leafs leading scorer.
17 Dick Duff 65GP 26 G 23 A 49 PTS

He scored an astronomical 0.4 Goals per game. Not really the scoring threat that makes getting a shutout that hard.
Oh I hear you. For fair discussion I didn't handpick a ringer there and that Leafs club at the time had some weaknesses. But career wise there were definitely some goal scorers in the bunch as there was with all clubs.


Quote:
At the end of the day i look at the 6 years where Sawchuck tallied 65 shutouts with by far the best team in the league in front of him. I look at 51'-55' where he amassed 56 of his 103 SO's with a SV% of 1.93. He never posted a SV% under 2.00 after 55'. I ask my self, was that not just a byproduct of an amazing team and a good goalie?
Yep. this is a solid point and hard to argue but Sawchuk made any team he played on better. Brodeur played on some pretty good clubs as well at least in the sense of playing a dedicated system to prevent GA.

Quote:
The Devils have been a good team for a long time, but i don't think Brodeur had that kind of team over 5 years to allow him to tally up the SO's.

Imagine if Brodeur played for the red Wings for his entire Career?
Yeah the Wings were a great club. I see what you're saying. To some extent its chicken or egg though. Is it the great team that causes Sawchuk or Sawchuk has as much to do with the great team.
Quote:
Like I said they are both amazing goalies and both records are phenomenal, but i put Brodeur ahead of Sawchuk.
In anycase good civil discussion and well thought out.

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12-22-2009, 10:40 PM
  #36
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The league scoring level and SO/GP ratio of all goalies in the league is probably the best indicator of how easy it was to get a a SO in a particular era. You can argue that the talent pool was very concentrated in the original six era, so every team, even last place teams, had very good forwards. But at the same time, you probably had a couple Hall of Famers on your blue line at any given time, so there's that to consider. Scoring levels during the 50's and 60's were pretty close to what we were seeing in the late 90's/early 00's, so it's doubtful either goaltender gains much advantage over the other when adjusting for league scoring level. A talnt level adjustment is likely a wash as well. The talent pool is much larger today, but it is spread much thinner.

A Sawchuk vs Brodeur debate can really come down to a peak versus longevity debate. Sawchuk's peak obliterates Brodeur's. Only Hasek of the late 90's rivals what Sawchuk did in the early 50's. But for the final decade or so of his career, Sawchuk was fairly average, usually only the third or fourth best goaltender in the league behind Plante, Hall, sometimes Bower, Worsley, etc.

Brodeur has been consistently very good for 15 years now. Never reached the level of Sawchuk in the early 50's, but he has remained elite for longer. Basically if you list the best seasons of each goaltender, Sawchuk gets the top five, and Brodeur probably the next dozen after that, so take your pick.

Myself, I'll take Sawchuk. An all time great goalie at his peak is the number one ingredient for a Stanley Cup, and Sawchuk's peak is arguably the best ever.

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Old
12-22-2009, 11:55 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1 View Post
Sawchuk to me is still the best ever. I frankly don't like Brodeur passing him in the same way I haven't liked anyone passing Ruth.

But I'm not sure about the harder to score part...didn't Sawchuk play during hockey's "deadball" era?
Your times are over, it's the new generation. Let it go old man. Hahaha.

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12-23-2009, 04:48 AM
  #38
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Martin Brodeur is the Wayne Gretzky of goaltending. Long live the king!

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12-23-2009, 04:58 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
I'm the one vote that said no. I mean I still admire Brodeurs record and it is simply an amazing feat. But it was defintiely a hell of a lot harder to get shutouts back in the day in a much more wide open game of hockey. Either way it is what it is, and that's one reason why a bunch of Gretzky's records will never be broken because there was much more scoring back in the day.
The average goals per game was lower in Sawchuks prime than it has been in Brodeurs.

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