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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

World Junior Hockey should be added to the Olympics

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Old
12-23-2009, 02:38 PM
  #51
Zine
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Dumb idea....it would hurt the game of hockey.

Outside of worldwide hard-core hockey fans, nobody gives a care about a bunch of U-20 kids playing.

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12-23-2009, 02:45 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Chileiceman View Post
Would European hockey federations be willing to move the World Championships to June so as to have all their best NHL'ers? It would probably raise more interest in North America too. Or have it in September before the NHL season.

I wouldn't want to see the Olympics become a U-20 tournament. It wouldn't be competitive enough. Look at the WJC's. It's a boring tournament until the semi-finals.
neither are likely, but especially June. Players who went deep in the playoffs are beat after playing really intense hockey 3 months, while everyone else has had a lot of time off, and probably in off-season mode. While European leagues have long been done as well.

September, too much risk of injury to just jump into intense hockey without training camp (NHL or European leagues).

The timing works where it is now for the IIHF, your core audience (Europeans) league's are all wrapped up, and you'll still get some decent NHL'ers.

Even if the NHL playoffs wern't on, I have a feeling many would still say no.

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12-23-2009, 02:47 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
The NHL, KHL & other Euro leagues need to have a World Cup during September every 3 or 4 years. The leagues can run it themselves, cut out the loser parasite organizations like the IIHF or IOC.

Everyone is happy. You make your own hosting decisions, you have flexibility to spread games out over multiple cities, you don't have to disrupt league seasons in February, or have a joke of a tournament while the NHL is in playoffs in April. Since it happens in September there's no insurance issues either cuz the players are in pre-season anyways and just loaned from their teams. No IOC/IIHF middlemen to take profits, it goes to leagues.
They cant even figure out a transfer agreement. You think theyd be able to organize a tournament in a way that everyone would benefit and noone would *****?

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World Cup/ Canada cup will never be equivalent to the Olympics. Olympics is the place for best vs. best. WHC in spring is good fest with positive impact to the popularity of hockey. WJC where it is now around the New Year. Why change something that works?
Say what? You do realize the World Cup teams are the same players as the Olympic teams right? And that the tournament was started because the ebst of the best couldnt play in the Olympics at the time.

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12-23-2009, 02:53 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by mattihp View Post
The NHL would never want to see that happen. Even more injury risks to their biggest stars.
Thats why professional tournaments should be run by leagues, not by national & international federations.

The leagues will get the profits, which covers amongst other things the insurance for guys with $100m contracts, which is tough for cash strapped federations to swallow, and somewhat outside their mandate as well.

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12-23-2009, 02:58 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
The NHL, KHL & other Euro leagues need to have a World Cup during September every 3 or 4 years. The leagues can run it themselves, cut out the loser parasite organizations like the IIHF or IOC.

Everyone is happy. You make your own hosting decisions, you have flexibility to spread games out over multiple cities, you don't have to disrupt league seasons in February, or have a joke of a tournament while the NHL is in playoffs in April. Since it happens in September there's no insurance issues either cuz the players are in pre-season anyways and just loaned from their teams. No IOC/IIHF middlemen to take profits, it goes to leagues.

Problem is, I doubt NHL would want anything to do with this because it only legitimizes the KHL and other competitor leagues....especially in a tournament of this size.

Considering NHL is only interested in itself (reason why 2014 might not happen - Bettman said he's not interested in olympics outside of NA), what possible insentive is there for the NHL to do this?
A majority of games in Europe?...with KHL receiving profits?

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12-23-2009, 03:01 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
They cant even figure out a transfer agreement. You think theyd be able to organize a tournament in a way that everyone would benefit and noone would *****?
Well call me an optimist then, naive if you like. I think over the next 4 years the leagues (especially the NHL & KHL) will be able to sit down like adults and start agreeing on some issues that's in everyone's best interests to solve, including transfer agreements, the 2014 olympics (which the NHL will eventually go to, it's HUGELY important politically for egos who run Russia), and post-2014 international competition (which should be a september tournemant run by leagues).

As long as ego can be put aside, it's in everyone's best interest to solve these issues, not just for the sake of the game, but it will pay $$$ too.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/...ntryID=4649336

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12-23-2009, 03:15 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Problem is, I doubt NHL would want anything to do with this because it only legitimizes the KHL and other competitor leagues....especially in a tournament of this size.
The other leagues are legitimate.. Most of their rosters would be NHL stars anyways so I don't see how threatened they could be.

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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Considering NHL is only interested in itself (reason why 2014 might not happen - Bettman said he's not interested in olympics outside of NA), what possible insentive is there for the NHL to do this?
First off, 2014 will happen. Right now it's posturing to sy it won't. It's a bargaining chip that Bettman can use in KHL negotiations that produce something that's actually good for NHL, like a better contract agreement with the KHL, no more poaching guys on contract (Radulov), no trying to force elite 16 year old Russian kids into 10 year contract to try and prevent trying to go to NHL (Kabanov)

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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
A majority of games in Europe?...with KHL receiving profits?
Profits can be pooled and distributed according to contribution..the lawyers will figure it out, but an arrangement where everyone makes fair money is easily possible, more games in Europe is not a problem... Maybe you can do something to keep Canadians & Americans happy to balance it out by having more regional teams (Canada 1,2,3, USA 1 & 2).

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12-23-2009, 03:48 PM
  #58
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-Junior hockey is not big in Europe at all, let alone the rest of the world not called North America.
-Like it or not, the Winter Olympics are not only about hockey, and other sports are wanting in.

Those two together builds a fat no.

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12-23-2009, 03:52 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
-Junior hockey is not big in Europe at all, let alone the rest of the world not called North America.
-Like it or not, the Winter Olympics are not only about hockey, and other sports are wanting in.

Those two together builds a fat no.
Junior hockey is only big in Canada, not in North America, which believe it or not accounts for about 30 countries. In other words these U-20 tournaments are popular only in one country.

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12-23-2009, 03:58 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
First off, 2014 will happen. Right now it's posturing to sy it won't. It's a bargaining chip that Bettman can use in KHL negotiations that produce something that's actually good for NHL, like a better contract agreement with the KHL, no more poaching guys on contract (Radulov), no trying to force elite 16 year old Russian kids into 10 year contract to try and prevent trying to go to NHL (Kabanov)
If anything it's a bargaining chip for the KHL. If the NHL does not go to Sotchi it will only make KHL offers all the more attractive.

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12-23-2009, 04:02 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
First off, 2014 will happen. Right now it's posturing to sy it won't. It's a bargaining chip that Bettman can use in KHL negotiations that produce something that's actually good for NHL, like a better contract agreement with the KHL, no more poaching guys on contract (Radulov), no trying to force elite 16 year old Russian kids into 10 year contract to try and prevent trying to go to NHL (Kabanov)

NHL's anti-olympic stance has little to do with KHL....it's mainly a bargaining chip for its own CBA (just like it was with last CBA).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Profits can be pooled and distributed according to contribution..the lawyers will figure it out, but an arrangement where everyone makes fair money is easily possible, more games in Europe is not a problem... Maybe you can do something to keep Canadians & Americans happy to balance it out by having more regional teams (Canada 1,2,3, USA 1 & 2).

Again, why would NHL want any money going to KHL or other leagues? That makes absolutely no sense. They'd rather have money going to IIHF.
There is absolutely no incentive for the NHL to do this.
NHL needs only to hold another biased World Cup where they will be able to keep all profits and control every aspect of the tournament.

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12-23-2009, 04:03 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
Junior hockey is only big in Canada, not in North America, which believe it or not accounts for about 30 countries. In other words these U-20 tournaments are popular only in one country.
I prefer to call Canada and USA North America, and the rest of the countries you mention, Central America. Might have confused you, but point taken, junior hockey is only really big in one single country.

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12-23-2009, 04:48 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Well call me an optimist then, naive if you like. I think over the next 4 years the leagues (especially the NHL & KHL) will be able to sit down like adults and start agreeing on some issues that's in everyone's best interests to solve, including transfer agreements, the 2014 olympics (which the NHL will eventually go to, it's HUGELY important politically for egos who run Russia), and post-2014 international competition (which should be a september tournemant run by leagues).

As long as ego can be put aside, it's in everyone's best interest to solve these issues, not just for the sake of the game, but it will pay $$$ too.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/...ntryID=4649336
Well, uhm... For some reason, I think many Europeans put little faith in that.

Somehow they have gotten the idea that Canada considers it being for a bit more than the next nation. The success we've seen with Canada viewing the International Ice Hockey Federation as being a single entity is an indication of what the individual Euro leagues can expect. Knowing that the IIHF is there to ruin Canadian hockey, it's fair to say that it's Canada against Europe (IIHF).

The problem with that reasoning is that just as Europe is not Canada, Europe is not one country either. It's a continent, with several different countries in it; countries that have put their differences aside to come up with some sort of way to coexist in an international environment. Everybody's given up a little bit to make it work, and now they are trying to grow the sport in other areas of the world (even outside Europe and Canada), by having meaningless tournaments called World Championships with several divisions, from which one can get relegated or promoted on an annual basis, all in an attempt to create some sort of fan base and enthusiasm in countries that currently don't have the fan base or the resources to have a domestic league. The feeble idea is that it has to start somewhere and then grow over time.

Fortnunately, Canada and many Canadians have seen straight through the IIHF, and know that the IIHF is a conspiracy, if not attempted mutiny. It's a given that Canada is entitled if not expected to tell the hockey world what goes, what doesn't go, and when (what tournaments produce legit World Champions and which don't, for example). It is a legit question, why should Canada have to compromise with anybody? Canadian hockey will go on regardless of what happens in the world, so screw them if they don't do what we say.

How or why these IIHF countries have developed their twisted idea or unfavorable view of Canada and its leadership, I don't know, but my guess is that it's solely a result of the IIHF, Euro jealousy and an IIHF supported smearing campaign of Canada.

Having said that, not a lot of Europeans are going to expect too much in terms of negotiations when any Canadian Hockey entity is involved. I guess they are in for a real surprise! They will find out exaclt how Canada will help them organize their leagues properly to function well with Canadian Hockey.

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12-23-2009, 05:27 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Ribban View Post
Well, uhm... For some reason, I think many Europeans put little faith in that.

Somehow they have gotten the idea that Canada considers it being for a bit more than the next nation. The success we've seen with Canada viewing the International Ice Hockey Federation as being a single entity is an indication of what the individual Euro leagues can expect. Knowing that the IIHF is there to ruin Canadian hockey, it's fair to say that it's Canada against Europe (IIHF).

The problem with that reasoning is that just as Europe is not Canada, Europe is not one country either. It's a continent, with several different countries in it; countries that have put their differences aside to come up with some sort of way to coexist in an international environment. Everybody's given up a little bit to make it work, and now they are trying to grow the sport in other areas of the world (even outside Europe and Canada), by having meaningless tournaments called World Championships with several divisions, from which one can get relegated or promoted on an annual basis, all in an attempt to create some sort of fan base and enthusiasm in countries that currently don't have the fan base or the resources to have a domestic league. The feeble idea is that it has to start somewhere and then grow over time.

Fortnunately, Canada and many Canadians have seen straight through the IIHF, and know that the IIHF is a conspiracy, if not attempted mutiny. It's a given that Canada is entitled if not expected to tell the hockey world what goes, what doesn't go, and when (what tournaments produce legit World Champions and which don't, for example). It is a legit question, why should Canada have to compromise with anybody? Canadian hockey will go on regardless of what happens in the world, so screw them if they don't do what we say.

How or why these IIHF countries have developed their twisted idea or unfavorable view of Canada and its leadership, I don't know, but my guess is that it's solely a result of the IIHF, Euro jealousy and an IIHF supported smearing campaign of Canada.

Having said that, not a lot of Europeans are going to expect too much in terms of negotiations when any Canadian Hockey entity is involved. I guess they are in for a real surprise! They will find out exaclt how Canada will help them organize their leagues properly to function well with Canadian Hockey.
One of the major flaws of the IIHF is that its congress structure is fundamentally undemocratic. When you use the one country one vote system instead of one player one vote, you end up with extremely disproportionate representation. Hockey players in countries like Australia and North Korea are way over represented and those in North America are vastly under represented.

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12-23-2009, 06:22 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Again, why would NHL want any money going to KHL or other leagues? That makes absolutely no sense. They'd rather have money going to IIHF.
There is absolutely no incentive for the NHL to do this.
NHL needs only to hold another biased World Cup where they will be able to keep all profits and control every aspect of the tournament.
Because if the KHL isn't on board a world cup won't have legitimacy, it won't be able to be a fait accompli as the the premier tournament in world (vs Olympics), and it will fizzle out as an artificial North American centric tournament like previous versions have.

You gotta share some of the pie with them and other euro leagues (they will be contributing SOME players after all). The constant stream of money will also help grease the wheels of friendship on other issues like respect of contracts, transfers, and fair contracts especially to young players.


Ribban dude lol, I kind of get it, you don't like Canada and Europe rules, no offence tho but your english isn't good enough for long winded sacastic posts, lots of it just doesn't make sense.

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12-23-2009, 06:57 PM
  #66
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The WJCs are not terribly popular in Europe. Not nearly to the ultra-obsessive degree that TSN has fostered here in Canada.

And perhaps the WJCs would be integrated into the olympics once the pro agreement is done. It would make it slightly more fair than the prior "amateur" method that still allowed European pros to compete. I would also suspect in this kind of setup the WJCs would not be restricted to once every 4 years, but simply that teh olympics replace the WJCs in any year where they would overlap, and the WJCs would simply happen as normal in the other 3 years.


EDIT: also, doesn't Olympic soccer work as a WJC-style setup? I mean obviously high-level pros don't play, but don't they craft the teams out of younger players?
olympic soccer is u-23 and u can have 3 players on the team over 23 years old. leo messi, the guy that won the world player of the year actually played in the olympics this past summer. soccer/football clubs hate it though.

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12-23-2009, 07:08 PM
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Messi is under 23. A better example is Brian McBride or Ronaldinho.

I would love if they switched to that format but it would never happen.

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12-23-2009, 07:16 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
You gotta share some of the pie with them and other euro leagues (they will be contributing SOME players after all). The constant stream of money will also help grease the wheels of friendship on other issues like respect of contracts, transfers, and fair contracts especially to young players.


Ribban dude lol, I kind of get it, you don't like Canada and Europe rules, no offence tho but your english isn't good enough for long winded sacastic posts, lots of it just doesn't make sense.

Again, what incentive is there for the NHL to share some of the pie? They have absolutely no interest in a legitimized tournament....only a tournament that will benefit them ($$$$). Why do you think they don't want olympics? What is NHL going to benefit from in having a shared tournament?

As far as KHL goes, trust me, the money to be made from a World Cup (every 4 years) is negligible. If you went to Medvedev with this idea in hopes of 'greasing the wheels' for a transfer agreement, he'd laugh in your face.


Don't get me wrong, your idea is very legitimate, however, it's one that has waaaay too many 'what if's' surrounding it right now.


Last edited by Zine: 12-23-2009 at 07:22 PM.
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12-23-2009, 07:23 PM
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Quit saying the World Cup is not a legitimate tournament. It is impossible to care about anything you say after that garbage. It is a lot more legitimate than the World Championships. Oh wait, that tournament is in Europe so it must be legitimate.

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12-23-2009, 07:30 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Again, what incentive is there for the NHL to share some of the pie? They have absolutely no interest in a legitimized tournament....only a tournament that will benefit them ($$$$). Why do you think they don't want olympics? What is NHL going to benefit from having a shared tournament?

As far as KHL goes, trust me, the money to be made from a World Cup (every 4 years) is negligible. If you went to Medvedev with this idea in hopes of 'greasing the wheels' for a transfer agreement, he'd laugh in your face.


Don't get me wrong, your idea is very legitimate, however, it's one that has waaaay too many 'what if's' surrounding it right now.
Long term, the more legitimate it is, the more $$$ to be gained worldwide. the NHL has an eye for the long term (the southern expansion strategy and grassroots programs there), they aren't just a bunch of pea-brained locusts. You get some decent TV coverage and it's exposure to game, leads into NHL regular season with a bang.

KHL gains legitimacy, they put KHL players on Russia's roster, make themselves look good, big bonus if those KHL players manage to beat team Canada. Not saying this is the only way to get a deal done, just a steady chunk of cash money coming in every few years never hurts to remind people of the benefits of cooperation.

Obviously this is pretty hypothetical & "what if?", I'm projecting past 2014 and assuming amongst other things the KHL & NHL are already beginning to make nice on other issues. This would be a logical project for them to undertake at that point.

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12-23-2009, 07:33 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Heatley#15 View Post
Quit saying the World Cup is not a legitimate tournament. It is impossible to care about anything you say after that garbage. It is a lot more legitimate than the World Championships. Oh wait, that tournament is in Europe so it must be legitimate.
More comparing it to the olympics.

I dunno why Europeans get such a stiffy about the WC, THEIR best players are in the NHL playoffs too.

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12-23-2009, 09:10 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
More comparing it to the olympics.

I dunno why Europeans get such a stiffy about the WC, THEIR best players are in the NHL playoffs too.
Why does Canada get such a stiffy about the WJC, it's only some kids playing (and the best are usually not there anyway, but in NHL)? Same thing.

U-23 soccer in the summer olympics is completely uninteresting and kills off the entire tournament (I don't think I've ever watched an entire olympic soccer game, not even a half). Making the same format in hockey for the winter olympics would kill off the tournament even more, then you could just as well scratch hockey.

The WJC has still very low interest anywhere outside of Canada. In Sweden, practically no one even knew the tournament even existed. It was just like 2-3 years ago the games started to get televised. The interest is still pretty low, but has received a boost by the hype from the media.


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12-23-2009, 09:24 PM
  #73
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I think WJC is overrated, the hockey isn't very good execution wise. I guess a lot of people like to see wild hockey (plus the dumb nationalism factor for Canadians), but I prefer to watch a NHL game, or a CIS university game (20-25 year olds).

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12-24-2009, 04:14 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Heatley#15 View Post
Quit saying the World Cup is not a legitimate tournament. It is impossible to care about anything you say after that garbage. It is a lot more legitimate than the World Championships. Oh wait, that tournament is in Europe so it must be legitimate.
No, the rules being fair makes it more legitimate than the NHL exhibition tournament called the world cup.

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12-24-2009, 04:31 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by ecemleafs View Post
olympic soccer is u-23 and u can have 3 players on the team over 23 years old. leo messi, the guy that won the world player of the year actually played in the olympics this past summer. soccer/football clubs hate it though.
They hate it is quite an understatement. In Germany there where huge debates about letting the u23 players leave their clubs for the olympics and there was no agreement between the FIFA and the clubs that the clubs must let their players go which easily could have ended in front of the CAS.

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