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Could Ovechkin break Gretzky's records if he played in the same time period?

View Poll Results: Would Ovechkin be better than Gretzky was if he started his career at the same time?
Yes 42 31.58%
No 91 68.42%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-23-2009, 02:03 AM
  #26
Moore Money
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he would probably come close or even beat the goal record, but he has nowhere near the vision and playmaking ability Gretzky had. Gretzky was a master at finding the open man in double coverage.


Last edited by Moore Money: 12-23-2009 at 02:18 AM.
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Old
12-23-2009, 04:14 AM
  #27
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McNuts View Post
Guy Lafleur smoked cigarettes between periods, and he was one of the 3 best players of the 1970's. Back in the day, players didn't really train off ice. In interviews between periods or after a game, they were dripping with sweat, a lot more than today. That's simply because players today are in much better shape. They're stronger, faster and have more endurance.

Moreover, the goalies in the 1980's were so freaking bad, had never heard of butterfly, had small equipment, and no defense in front of them. In 82, there was 61 players at or over one point per game, including Siltanen, Flockhart, Dunlop, Hartsburg, Carlyle, Payne, Duguay, Derlago, Lumley, Valentine, Gradin, and the list goes on and on. Who the hell are those guys? Typical top 50-60-70 ish players that no one remembers 25 years later but that managed to score over 1 point per game during the 1980's. Those guys today would get no more than 0.7 points per game. They're the Michael Ryder's and the Tuomo Ruutu's of today's NHL. Can you see those two score 80 or 90 points today, i.e. be top 10-20 in offense? No, of course not.

Since the offense was so ridiculously easier back then, I think it's safe to say that Ovechkin, with great linesmates like Gretzky had, would score significantly more than 65 goals. Further, with his greater shape, speed, and shot that his off-ice training and just superior athleticism gives him (even with a wooden stick), he could probably have scored over one goal per game, probably 90, maybe 100, and 80 assists is not far fetched.

I therefore think that he would be a better goal scorer. Of course he will never have the vision and hockey intelligence that Gretzky had. But physically he would be one step above anyone else. Going from one end to the neutral zone and entering the offensive zone full speed, passing and deking defensemen and scoring would be a very common feat for him in the 1980's.
Mario Lemieux smoked cigs for several years after he arrived in the NHL, and he was still the best player in the league when healthy, as late as 2001.

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Old
12-23-2009, 04:46 AM
  #28
XploD
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Originally Posted by eldiablo17 View Post
Depends.

Are you taking Ovechkin as he is today? Because if so than yes, he would easily break 100 goals

But if Ovechkin was raised in the 70s then no. Training and development are completely different today.
This is spot on. Should end all arguments.

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Old
12-23-2009, 06:26 AM
  #29
RoninsRevenge
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Originally Posted by McNuts View Post
My point is if you take Ovechkin in a time machine and ship him to the 1980's, he will dominate and break Gretzky's goal record.
With the "time machine theory", yes. So would some of the other stars in the league today. If they could go back to the 80s as they are today with their current level of size, speed, and overall fitness, as well as their modern equipment, yes they would run roughshod over everyone. It wouldn't even be fair. But if the current stars were raised along with Gretzky and used the same equipment, no. These theoretical time period questions are completely impossible to know. Whether bringing the past greats to today's game or sending our current crop back, no one can ever really know how they would have adapted to different upbringings, game styles, and equipment. It makes for good conversation though.

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Old
12-23-2009, 06:43 AM
  #30
FromTheSide
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I think ovechkin would have a shot at breaking the goal record. But thats where the record breaking ends.Nobody is going to touch gretzky's point/assists records.

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Old
12-23-2009, 07:33 AM
  #31
SuicideKings15
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Don't be fooled, the Soviets trained more than about 99% of the players in the league now do in the 60's, 70's and 80's. And guess what? A few of them were better than Ovechkin is (Kharlamov, Makarov, Krutov), and when Gretz played against them, he was still visibly the best player on the ice.

A lot of the people on here don't appreciate Gretzkys numbers. Chances are, without Gretzky, Anderson and Kurri don't even end up in the Hall. Ovechkin being centered by Messier in the 80's could probably put up 66 goals on average fora bout 6-7 seasons. Probably about an average of 130 points. The guy might have the shot, but guess what, when you drop him into that time, with that equipment and how much rougher the game was. You get more injuries, a loss on the power and accuracy of his shot; Basically, you get Boris Mikhailov, with an extra 2 inches and maybe 10 pounds.

Ovechkin isn't in the same realm as Gretzky or Mario, no matter what era you drop him in.

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Old
12-23-2009, 07:56 AM
  #32
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Yes. The game has progressed and evolved. Players are bigger, stronger, and faster now. Gretzky weaved in and out of 3 or 4 people at a time at speeds seemingly much slower than the game is played to day at.

For his era Gretzky was exponentially better than everyone else. But if you put Ovechkin "as he is now" in a time machine he would dominate.

I think Crosby would fare better than Ovechkin though in this hypothetical.

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Old
12-23-2009, 07:59 AM
  #33
Jack Donaghy
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No. He wouldn't break 92 goals nor 215 points.

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Old
12-23-2009, 10:55 AM
  #34
shazariahl
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Originally Posted by POW66 View Post
Don't be fooled, the Soviets trained more than about 99% of the players in the league now do in the 60's, 70's and 80's. And guess what? A few of them were better than Ovechkin is (Kharlamov, Makarov, Krutov), and when Gretz played against them, he was still visibly the best player on the ice.

A lot of the people on here don't appreciate Gretzkys numbers. Chances are, without Gretzky, Anderson and Kurri don't even end up in the Hall. Ovechkin being centered by Messier in the 80's could probably put up 66 goals on average fora bout 6-7 seasons. Probably about an average of 130 points. The guy might have the shot, but guess what, when you drop him into that time, with that equipment and how much rougher the game was. You get more injuries, a loss on the power and accuracy of his shot; Basically, you get Boris Mikhailov, with an extra 2 inches and maybe 10 pounds.

Ovechkin isn't in the same realm as Gretzky or Mario, no matter what era you drop him in.
This is EXACTLY what I was going to mention. Sure the NHL athletes didn't train year-round back then, but the Soviets did. And yet in EVERY Canada Cup/International tournament Gretzky was in, he led the entire tourney in scoring. Every single one. I honestly believe one reason Gretzky dominated so much was because he had today's level of conditioning back in the 80's. He played more minutes of ice-time than most of today's starts. Against the Soviets in the 87 Canada Cup, Gretzky played over 50 minutes of game 2 (which went 90 minutes because it went to double OT). Think about that for a moment - for a d-man to play nearly 60% of the game is unheard of. For a forward to do it? That is simply unthinkable.

People act like Gretzky was just "another superstar" who was in the right place at the right time. Like as if anyone else in those circumstances would have done the same. That is simply untrue. He didn't just break some records, he re-wrote the books from start to finish. Where before each superstar of the previous generations had their own piece of the record book, Gretzky overwrote all their names with his own. Howe had all the career records. Richard had 50 goals in 50 games. Orr had the single season assist record; Esposito the goals/points record. LaFleur had the longest point scoring streak. Gretzky didn't just beat their records either - he demolished them. Often his 4th and 5th best efforts were enough to break these records, let alone his best.

For one player to be both the best goal scorer and the best playmaker is strange enough. But for one player to have both the best seasonal peaks and the best career numbers is also pretty rare. So many great starts never had the durability; Gretzky had it all. He wasn't just a generational talent, he was a once ever talent. Ovechkin would have a chance at beating his goals records, but even that is a remote chance. He would have no chance at anything else.

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Old
12-23-2009, 10:57 AM
  #35
Darius Dangleaitis
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If you took Ovechkin as he is now and warped him back onto a 70's-80's Oiler team then yeah, I think so.

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12-23-2009, 11:16 AM
  #36
NobodyBeatsTheWiz
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Ovechkin playing in this era has a decent shot at breaking Gretzky's career goals record. So I'd say yeah, he'd have a shot at the other records if he played at the same time as Gretzky.

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12-23-2009, 11:38 AM
  #37
MM425
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If you took the Ovechkin of today and transported him back in time to the 80's, than I have little doubt that he would hit 100 goals in a season. Athletes today >> Athletes of 20 years ago.

The great one himself would probably agree with this.

Likewise, guys like Crosby and Malkin would be racking up 200 point seasons routinely.

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Old
12-23-2009, 12:18 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Mario Lemieux smoked cigs for several years after he arrived in the NHL, and he was still the best player in the league when healthy, as late as 2001.
Mario Lemieux, seen here, prepares for the third period.


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Old
12-23-2009, 12:25 PM
  #39
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McNuts View Post
My point is if you take Ovechkin in a time machine and ship him to the 1980's, he will dominate and break Gretzky's goal record.
Faulty logic though. I can flip that around. Allow Gretzky to be born in 1985 and give him the training, equipment and all the advantages of today and he's the best player in the NHL in 2009. Remember, he would still possess his hockey sense and anticipation, not to mention an even more accurate shot and his playmaking abilities.

Just a side note: Always, always, always, judge a player by how he performed against his peers. The game will always evolve. In 30 years there are going to be changes that we haven't thought of yet. Does that take anything away from Crosby and Ovechkin today because in 30 years the game might be faster? No. Ditto for the 1980s

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Old
12-23-2009, 12:34 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Faulty logic though. I can flip that around. Allow Gretzky to be born in 1985 and give him the training, equipment and all the advantages of today and he's the best player in the NHL in 2009. Remember, he would still possess his hockey sense and anticipation, not to mention an even more accurate shot and his playmaking abilities.
completely irrelevant. this thread is about Ovechkin playing in Gretzky's time period. not vice versa.

anyway, if you took Ovechkin as he is now and he played in Gretzky's era then he would obliterate all records. i don't think a 150 goal season would be out of the question.

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Old
12-23-2009, 12:56 PM
  #41
Devil Dancer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Faulty logic though. I can flip that around. Allow Gretzky to be born in 1985 and give him the training, equipment and all the advantages of today and he's the best player in the NHL in 2009.
Possibly, but he wouldn't put up anywhere near the goal totals he had in his career. Go back and watch some Gretzky vids, he just doesn't have the shot that the current batch of snipers do.

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12-23-2009, 01:08 PM
  #42
htpwn
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Originally Posted by Devil Dancer View Post
Possibly, but he wouldn't put up anywhere near the goal totals he had in his career. Go back and watch some Gretzky vids, he just doesn't have the shot that the current batch of snipers do.
Gretzky used a piece of wood.

Today's snipers use a slingshot.

Which do you think will prove more accurate?

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Old
12-23-2009, 01:11 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Also, polls where the title and poll are asking totally different questions are a big fail.
Yeah, exactly. Judging by many of the responses, most people didnt even notice the poll question:

"Would Ovechkin be better than Gretzky was if he started his career at the same time?"

A better comparison for the specific thread question would be Bossy and Ovy.

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Old
12-23-2009, 01:20 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
"Would Ovechkin be better than Gretzky was if he started his career at the same time?"
That could also be spun to Gretzky starting @ Ovies time.

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Old
12-23-2009, 01:28 PM
  #45
Cawz
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Originally Posted by LetsGoBears View Post
That could also be spun to Gretzky starting @ Ovies time.
...than Gretzky "was"...

"Was" generally refers to the past. But the point is that the poll is confusing, since the question is different than the thread title. Poll fail.

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Old
12-23-2009, 01:49 PM
  #46
SuicideKings15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Dancer View Post
Possibly, but he wouldn't put up anywhere near the goal totals he had in his career. Go back and watch some Gretzky vids, he just doesn't have the shot that the current batch of snipers do.
Equipment matters a lot more for people that play hockey at a higher level than anyone who doesn't could ever know.

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Old
12-23-2009, 02:30 PM
  #47
Devil Dancer
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
Gretzky used a piece of wood.
Not true, at least not exclusively. But as I said, go watch some of his videos and take a look at his shot. It simply can't compete with the top shooters today. His release doesn't have the violent explosiveness of, for example, a slapper from Kovalchuk.

#99's shot was very accurate, which would be partially negated by improved defensive and goalie techniques, and the increase in size of goalies and goalie equipment.

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Old
12-23-2009, 02:31 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by POW66 View Post
Equipment matters a lot more for people that play hockey at a higher level than anyone who doesn't could ever know.
And how do you know? Have you played at the NHL level? Paul Stastny seems to think those old wood sticks stack up just fine against the modern composites.

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Old
12-23-2009, 02:32 PM
  #49
yada
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no chance, some people above outlined why. can somebody post ovechkins goal totals adjusted for the 80s?

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Old
12-23-2009, 02:37 PM
  #50
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Haha. No.

Love Ovie, but no.

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