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Could Ovechkin break Gretzky's records if he played in the same time period?

View Poll Results: Would Ovechkin be better than Gretzky was if he started his career at the same time?
Yes 42 31.58%
No 91 68.42%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-23-2009, 03:38 PM
  #51
Trottier
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Originally Posted by Humphrey22 View Post
anyway, if you took Ovechkin as he is now and he played in Gretzky's era then he would obliterate all records. i don't think a 150 goal season would be out of the question.
150? Pffft. He'd have that many by Christmas.

More like 250, 300 a season! Gretzky's records would fall by the time AO was 25 years old!

...The creative minds and baseless assertions of HF.

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12-23-2009, 03:38 PM
  #52
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He would definitely break the goal record, assuming some sort of quality linemates (on par with those 99 played with). He would never break the point record (especially if he was chasing the goal record). The amount of quality scoring chances Ovechkin would get would be extreme. The amount of net he would have to shoot at would be huge compared to now.

I think posters in this thread are exaggerating the importance of modern sticks though. It is a factor but not a gigantic one. I'd like his chances with a wooden stick too.

A Wayne Gretzky born in 1985 would be very impressive too. It works both ways, the benefits of modern hockey training.

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12-23-2009, 03:48 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Derick View Post
Obviously Gretzky wouldn't score as much in this league, but even when you adjust for his high-scoring era, it's not even close.
Really? In terms of goals? Because adjusted stats show that it would be EXTREMELY close

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...gretzwa01.html

vs

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...ovechal01.html

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Old
12-23-2009, 04:00 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
150? Pffft. He'd have that many by Christmas.

More like 250, 300 a season! Gretzky's records would fall by the time AO was 25 years old!

...The creative minds and baseless assertions of HF.
are you incapable of discussing topics without personal attacks or other insults?

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12-23-2009, 04:18 PM
  #55
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Really? In terms of goals? Because adjusted stats show that it would be EXTREMELY close

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...gretzwa01.html

vs

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...ovechal01.html
I think their goal scoring exploits over the first 4.5 years of their careers have been about equal. I expect Ovechkin will pull ahead later by remaining an elite sniper for a longer period than Wayne did.

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12-23-2009, 05:04 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Faulty logic though. I can flip that around. Allow Gretzky to be born in 1985 and give him the training, equipment and all the advantages of today and he's the best player in the NHL in 2009. Remember, he would still possess his hockey sense and anticipation, not to mention an even more accurate shot and his playmaking abilities.

Just a side note: Always, always, always, judge a player by how he performed against his peers. The game will always evolve. In 30 years there are going to be changes that we haven't thought of yet. Does that take anything away from Crosby and Ovechkin today because in 30 years the game might be faster? No. Ditto for the 1980s
The evolution of the goaltender has been far more rapid than anything else though. Goalies today are light years ahead of where they were in the '80's. You can argue about their skills all you want, but the fact is that goalies today stop A LOT more shots than they used to. The inflated point totals of the 80's and early 90's would be impossible to produce in the modern era, regardless of training or equipment. If Gretzky could top 130 points in this era, I would be impressed. And that is not to take anything away from him (I do believe that Gretzky and Lemieux were the best of all-time, regardless of era), but it's just so hard to score points at that pace now.

30 years from now, I don't think there will be such sweeping changes, because there's only so much that players can do to improve physically. The law of diminishing returns I guess.

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12-23-2009, 05:10 PM
  #57
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Could today's Ovechkin, if he (and his hockey sticks) were warped back in a time machine to the early 80s, break Gretzky's scoring records? Absolutely. No question about it. There's more than a handful of players that could.

Could Ovechkin, if he was born in the mid-60s like Gretzky was, go on to break Gretzky's records if he only was able to train like everyone else that was born in that time period? Maybe, maybe not. Impossible to say, really.

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12-23-2009, 05:16 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
150? Pffft. He'd have that many by Christmas.

More like 250, 300 a season! Gretzky's records would fall by the time AO was 25 years old!

...The creative minds and baseless assertions of HF.
take Kobe Bryant and put him in a time machine to 1980. he would average 50 points a game.

Ovechkin would skate circles around the opposition. it would be comical.

and i guess here is where i should put in a tiny font something condescending but i'm not like you

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12-23-2009, 05:18 PM
  #59
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The point about the Soviets in the 70s and 80s is a great one. Those who talk about "modern training" neglect the fact that the Soviets at the time trained even harder than players today, and none of them were even close to Gretzky in the same time period.

There's a good argument that Sergei Makarov was every bit as good as Mike Bossy. But he was no Wayne Gretzky.

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12-23-2009, 05:21 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The point about the Soviets in the 70s and 80s is a great one. Those who talk about "modern training" neglect the fact that the Soviets at the time trained even harder than players today, and none of them were even close to Gretzky in the same time period.

There's a good argument that Sergei Makarov was every bit as good as Mike Bossy. But he was no Wayne Gretzky.
Harder is not always better.

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12-23-2009, 05:25 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Lolsports View Post
Harder is not always better.
Newer is not always better, either.

I also agree with someone else that part of the reason Gretzky was so dominant is he basically trained like players do today, while nobody else did.

What does that mean for Ovechkin? As I said before, I think he'd challenge Gretzky's goal totals on a season-to-season basis, but that I doubt his style of play would give him the durability to break the career goals record.

And he wouldn't even be close to Gretzky in assists and points.

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12-23-2009, 05:26 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
150? Pffft. He'd have that many by Christmas.

More like 250, 300 a season! Gretzky's records would fall by the time AO was 25 years old!

...The creative minds and baseless assertions of HF.
call any argument on a sports message board baseless, thus making yourself look smart! You might even be semi-correct some of the time!

Call now for free boosts of self esteem!

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12-23-2009, 05:27 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey22 View Post
take Kobe Bryant and put him in a time machine to 1980. he would average 50 points a game.

Ovechkin would skate circles around the opposition. it would be comical.

and i guess here is where i should put in a tiny font something condescending but i'm not like you
Assuming that players who play today are better than players you never saw, just because they play today, is already condescending to those who played before you were born. He was just condescending back.

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12-23-2009, 05:28 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Newer is not always better, either.

I also agree with someone else that part of the reason Gretzky was so dominant is he basically trained like players do today, while nobody else did.

What does that mean for Ovechkin? As I said before, I think he'd challenge Gretzky's goal totals on a season-to-season basis, but that I doubt his style of play would give him the durability to break the career goals record.

And he wouldn't even be close to Gretzky in assists and points.
Well you look at the physique of Ovechkin compared to those who played back in the day, you could make a case that newer is quite often better.

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12-23-2009, 05:29 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Lolsports View Post
Well you look at the physique of Ovechkin compared to those who played back in the day, you could make a case that newer is quite often better.
Bigger is not always better, and Gretzky more than anyone proved that.

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12-23-2009, 05:31 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Assuming that players who play today are better than players you never saw, just because they play today, is already condescending to those who played before you were born. He was just condescending back.
are you serious????? look at sprinting now compared to 30 years ago. compare the world records. ditto for swimming. look at figure skating now (lol, i know). put Tiger Woods in a time machine to 1980. he'd win every single event he entered.

how on earth can anyone think differently?

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12-23-2009, 05:33 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Bigger is not always better, and Gretzky more than anyone proved that.
So ovechkin should lose weight? Not a good argument.

I think keeping his physical game with his insane physique would in all likely hood, allow him to plow through the shrimps playing in the 80's. Much like ray lewis would be if he played in the 50's.

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12-23-2009, 05:35 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Lolsports View Post
So ovechkin should lose weight? Not a good argument.

I think keeping his physical game with his insane physique would in all likely hood, allow him to plow through the shrimps playing in the 80's. Much like ray lewis would be if he played in the 50's.
seriously this. he would run over the opposition. or he could simply skate around them. it would have to depend on his mood.

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12-23-2009, 05:36 PM
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Youd have to be blind to think that players arent through science bigger fast and stronger than they were in the 80's.

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12-23-2009, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Lolsports View Post
So ovechkin should lose weight? Not a good argument.
Yes, and he should lose a few inches of height so he's just like Gretzky.

It's not all about the size of the player.

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I think keeping his physical game with his insane physique would in all likely hood, allow him to plow through the shrimps playing in the 80's. Much like ray lewis would be if he played in the 50's.
If he tried "plowing through players" in the 80s, he had better learn how to fight then, or else his career would be cut pretty short.

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12-23-2009, 05:39 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yes, and he should lose a few inches of height so he's just like Gretzky.

It's not all about the size of the player.



If he tried "plowing through players" in the 80s, he had better learn how to fight then, or else his career would be cut pretty short.
No its not all about the size of the player, but size, speed and strength have alot to do with how the player is able to perform. Boring deflection for your second argument.

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12-23-2009, 05:39 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Lolsports View Post
Youd have to be blind to think that players arent through science bigger fast and stronger than they were in the 80's.
On average, yes. But it's not like they are genetically engineered or something.

They are slightly taller due to better nutrition as children, that's about it. And as Gretzky (and Martin St. Louis for that matter) show, height isn't everything. Training has evolved, but Gretzky trained very similarly to how players do today. The biggest difference is in the advances in treating injuries, but injuries were not a problem for Gretzky until later in his career.

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12-23-2009, 05:41 PM
  #73
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No its not all about the size of the player, but size, speed and strength have alot to do with how the player is able to perform. Boring deflection for your second argument.
No kidding. But as Gretzky showed, they aren't everything. And it's not like Gretzky was a slug (though he wasn't as fast as Ovechkin, he also wasn't as fast as contemporaries like Denis Savard).

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12-23-2009, 05:41 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
On average, yes. But it's not like they are genetically engineered or something.

They are slightly taller due to better nutrition as children, that's about it. And as Gretzky (and Martin St. Louis for that matter) show, height isn't everything. Training has evolved, but Gretzky trained very similarly to how players do today. The biggest difference is in the advances in treating injuries, but injuries were not a problem for Gretzky until later in his career.
You are just wrong. Supliments like creatine for example revolutionized the way workouts were done.

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12-23-2009, 05:45 PM
  #75
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seriously this. he would run over the opposition. or he could simply skate around them. it would have to depend on his mood.
This statement is much more condescending than anything the poster Trottier said. Just an FYI.

It's also retarded, as guys like Gordie Howe, Ray Bourque and Mario Lemieux have shown -

Gordie Howe was still a better than average player when he retired around 1980, even though he was an old man by that time.

Ray Bourque was one of the best defensemen in the league in 1980, just like he was when he won the Cup in 2001. He wasn't as good as he used to be in 2001, but he was still better than most other dmen in the league.

Mario Lemieux came back from a long hiatus to lead the league in points-per-game in 2001, despite being much older and slower.

And we know quite a few guys who were stars in 2001 (Brodeur, Lidstrom, etc) are perfectly fine in the "New NHL."

The average players have gotten better, but stars are stars, no matter the era.

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