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Could Ovechkin break Gretzky's records if he played in the same time period?

View Poll Results: Would Ovechkin be better than Gretzky was if he started his career at the same time?
Yes 42 31.58%
No 91 68.42%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-23-2009, 04:47 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This statement is much more condescending than anything the poster Trottier said. Just an FYI.
how in god's name is my post even the slightest bit condescending?

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12-23-2009, 04:48 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Lolsports View Post
You are just wrong. Supliments like creatine for example revolutionized the way workouts were done.
I said "very similarly," not the same.

This is hockey, not weight lifting. Yes, I'm sure Ovechkin can bench press twice what Gretzky could. It helps with the game, but Gretzky was still the (much) better hockey player.

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12-23-2009, 04:49 PM
  #78
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What team would Ovechkin be on, hypothetically speaking? The 1980s Washington Capitals? Or the Edmonton Oilers? I think this is important in this argument.

I think Ovechkin could challenge the 92-goal mark, just like Mario Lemieux and Brett Hull did back in the day. But 50 in 39? The assist totals? The 215, 212-point seasons? I think those would still be out of reach.

We can say what we want about the equipment back in the day, both for skaters and goaltenders, and about the coaching, and about the size of the players, and their conditioning, but one constant about Gretzky was his unpredictability. Teams never knew what he was going to do before he did it. His hockey sense was better than anyone who ever played the game. You know how the NFL has the QB rating, and a perfect QB rating is what, 108. something? Well, Gretzky had perfect hockey sense. There isn't anything he couldn't see on the ice.

I still think that is what always separated him from all others, past, present or future.

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12-23-2009, 04:49 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey22 View Post
how in god's name is my post even the slightest bit condescending?
Condescending to every player who played before you were born - basically calling them garbage compared to today's godlike players.

(Despite the fact that long, overlapping careers, prove that the high-end talent of the 80s was just as good as it is today).

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12-23-2009, 04:50 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I said "very similarly," not the same.

This is hockey, not weight lifting. Yes, I'm sure Ovechkin can bench press twice what Gretzky could. It helps with the game, but Gretzky was still the (much) better hockey player.
I also said size, speed and strength. If you took ovy of today, put him in the 80's against the goaltending back then, im sure he could crack 90 goals.

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12-23-2009, 04:51 PM
  #81
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Not even close at all...He simply lacks the innate hockey sense Gretzky possesed, 99 was a literal genious on the ice. 80's Ovechkin with a plastic JOFA brain bucket, Cooperalls and a pop-gun wood stick wouldn't be in Gretzky's neighborhood. He wouldn't be as big and strong or fast with that era of nutrition, training and equipment. His shot would be severely comprimised without his banana curved whip. Decent player still but not really turning up the heat on Gretzky...or Bossy or Brett Hull either.

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12-23-2009, 04:52 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
What team would Ovechkin be on, hypothetically speaking? The 1980s Washington Capitals? Or the Edmonton Oilers? I think this is important in this argument.

I think Ovechkin could challenge the 92-goal mark, just like Mario Lemieux and Brett Hull did back in the day. But 50 in 39? The assist totals? The 215, 212-point seasons? I think those would still be out of reach.

We can say what we want about the equipment back in the day, both for skaters and goaltenders, and about the coaching, and about the size of the players, and their conditioning, but one constant about Gretzky was his unpredictability. Teams never knew what he was going to do before he did it. His hockey sense was better than anyone who ever played the game. You know how the NFL has the QB rating, and a perfect QB rating is what, 108. something? Well, Gretzky had perfect hockey sense. There isn't anything he couldn't see on the ice.

I still think that is what always separated him from all others, past, present or future.

Exactly. Ovechkin has a much better shot than Gretzky. But so did Mike Bossy and several others, and Gretzky blew them away in goal scoring, while playing at the same time.

He did it by shooting when other players would pass, passing when other players would shoot, etc., and that wouldn't change in today's game.

All the physical advances in the world, don't change the fact that goalies simply could not read Gretzky like they can read other players.

Hell, Ovechkin is one of the most predictable superstars ever. Being tricky just isn't his game, and it shows just how physically talented he is. But the power forward game wasn't Gretzky's game either, and I think he did just fine.

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12-23-2009, 04:52 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Condescending to every player who played before you were born - basically calling them garbage compared to today's godlike players.

(Despite the fact that long, overlapping careers, prove that the high-end talent of the 80s was just as good as it is today).
jesus christ. talk about grasping at straws. Trottier's post was directed to ME. my post was directed at player's who will never, IN A MILLION YEARS, read this thread.

you have got to be kidding me. i cannot believe you just typed that.

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12-23-2009, 04:53 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This statement is much more condescending than anything the poster Trottier said. Just an FYI.

It's also retarded, as guys like Gordie Howe, Ray Bourque and Mario Lemieux have shown -

Gordie Howe was still a better than average player when he retired around 1980, even though he was an old man by that time.

Ray Bourque was one of the best defensemen in the league in 1980, just like he was when he won the Cup in 2001. He wasn't as good as he used to be in 2001, but he was still better than most other dmen in the league.

Mario Lemieux came back from a long hiatus to lead the league in points-per-game in 2001, despite being much older and slower.

And we know quite a few guys who were stars in 2001 (Brodeur, Lidstrom, etc) are perfectly fine in the "New NHL."

The average players have gotten better, but stars are stars, no matter the era.
Ovechkin will be playing against the "average players". He won't be facing the stars on a nightly basis.

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12-23-2009, 04:53 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Condescending to every player who played before you were born - basically calling them garbage compared to today's godlike players.

(Despite the fact that long, overlapping careers, prove that the high-end talent of the 80s was just as good as it is today).
Absolutely 100% agreed.

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12-23-2009, 04:54 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Lolsports View Post
I also said size, speed and strength. If you took ovy of today, put him in the 80's against the goaltending back then, im sure he could crack 90 goals.
I wasn't arguing that he couldn't crack 90 goals. I said before that he'd be very close to Gretzky in goal scoring. I was arguing that he wouldn't blow everyone (including Gretzky) away, like some seem to think.

But he wouldn't come close to Gretzky's overall offensive game - Gretzky was an even better playmaker than he was a goal scorer.

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12-23-2009, 04:56 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by ElsinoreBrewery View Post
Not even close at all...He simply lacks the innate hockey sense Gretzky possesed, 99 was a literal genious on the ice. 80's Ovechkin with a plastic JOFA brain bucket, Cooperalls and a pop-gun wood stick wouldn't be in Gretzky's neighborhood. He wouldn't be as big and strong or fast with that era of nutrition, training and equipment. His shot would be severely comprimised without his banana curved whip. Decent player still but not really turning up the heat on Gretzky...or Bossy or Brett Hull either.
I have to disagre with this. Ovechkin, has had as good a start to his career as Mike Bossy did. Maybe better. I'd say his regular season numbers are better than Bossy's, if you take era into account. And Brett Hull was a great goal scorer without Adam Oates, but not better than Ovechkin.

If he remains healthy (big if), he should end up the better player than either Bossy or Brett Hull.

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12-23-2009, 04:59 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey22 View Post
take Kobe Bryant and put him in a time machine to 1980. he would average 50 points a game.

Ovechkin would skate circles around the opposition. it would be comical.

and i guess here is where i should put in a tiny font something condescending but i'm not like you
This is just such a foolish, stupid argument.

Give the players then the training and equipment of today and let's see Ovechkin "skate circles around [them]".

You know what would be comical? Seeing Ovechkin get freight trained by Eddie Shore or Dennis Potvin.

You're not condescending because your argument is so easy to debunk it's not even funny. There's simply no real thought behind it and it's a common one around here. It's utterly stupid. It's not Trottier's fault that you don't have a clue in hell what you're talking about, is it? He can be as condescending as he wants if you continue to argue such a stupid point.

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12-23-2009, 04:59 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElsinoreBrewery View Post
Not even close at all...He simply lacks the innate hockey sense Gretzky possesed, 99 was a literal genious on the ice. 80's Ovechkin with a plastic JOFA brain bucket, Cooperalls and a pop-gun wood stick wouldn't be in Gretzky's neighborhood. He wouldn't be as big and strong or fast with that era of nutrition, training and equipment. His shot would be severely comprimised without his banana curved whip. Decent player still but not really turning up the heat on Gretzky...or Bossy or Brett Hull either.
Somehow i would doubt he would be merely a "decent" player.

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12-23-2009, 05:01 PM
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I do think that Ovechkin could flirt with 90 goals in his best years in the 80s.

But take Bobby Hull from the 60s, transport him to the 80s, give him Paul Coffey to feed him breakout passes, and I wouldn't be surprised if he flirted with 90 goals.

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12-23-2009, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
This is just such a foolish, stupid argument.

Give the players then the training and equipment of today and let's see Ovechkin "skate circles around [them]".

You know what would be comical? Seeing Ovechkin get freight trained by Eddie Shore or Dennis Potvin.

You're not condescending because your argument is so easy to debunk it's not even funny. There's simply no real thought behind it and it's a common one around here. It's utterly stupid. It's not Trottier's fault that you don't have a clue in hell what you're talking about, is it? He can be as condescending as he wants if you continue to argue such a stupid point.
i lost you at the bolded part. come back, with a clue, and then i'll respond.

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12-23-2009, 05:05 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post

Give the players then the training and equipment of today and let's see Ovechkin "skate circles around [them]".
You mean like he does already? lol

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12-23-2009, 05:06 PM
  #93
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You mean like he does already? lol
HAHAHAHA. awesome. at this point i'm almost convinced this thread is a joke.

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12-23-2009, 05:14 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I have to disagre with this. Ovechkin, has had as good a start to his career as Mike Bossy did. Maybe better. If he remains healthy (big if), he should end up the better player than either Bossy or Brett Hull.
My observations were strictly for the context of Ovechkin being born @1960 and playing in the mid 80' NHL. Yes, today Ovechkin is a killer goal scorer, I agree, but his edge over the competition in today's game is a mix of sheer size and speed matched with an overpowering shot thanks in part to today's technology. He isn't a creative, unpredictable player, everybody and their grandmother knows he is gonna shoot, but his physical tools make him extremely hard to stop. In the mid 80's, overwhelming physical prowess didn't make you a superstar, god given talent and knowing when and where to be and making sure nobody else knew what you were thinking seperated you from the pack. As far as longevity goes, Probert, Semenko or McSorely types wouldn't let his antics fly without a little bloodshed.

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12-23-2009, 05:27 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
This is just such a foolish, stupid argument.

Give the players then the training and equipment of today and let's see Ovechkin "skate circles around [them]".

You know what would be comical? Seeing Ovechkin get freight trained by Eddie Shore or Dennis Potvin.

You're not condescending because your argument is so easy to debunk it's not even funny. There's simply no real thought behind it and it's a common one around here. It's utterly stupid. It's not Trottier's fault that you don't have a clue in hell what you're talking about, is it? He can be as condescending as he wants if you continue to argue such a stupid point.
So true. It's funny, the guy you were quoting is acting like he won the argument or something.

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12-23-2009, 05:32 PM
  #96
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Sure! If he had Gretzky on his line!

Wait...

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12-23-2009, 05:35 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Dialamo View Post
So true. It's funny, the guy you were quoting is acting like he won the argument or something.
kinda hard to win an arguement when people keep switching parameters to benefit their side but whatever.

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12-23-2009, 05:38 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The point about the Soviets in the 70s and 80s is a great one. Those who talk about "modern training" neglect the fact that the Soviets at the time trained even harder than players today
No, they didn't. Players today could not be trained better off-ice for hockey with the current technological means. Training efficiency is clearly superior now that it was back then. Ovechkin would athletically dominate everyone else by a good margin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
This is just such a foolish, stupid argument.

Give the players then the training and equipment of today and let's see Ovechkin "skate circles around [them]".
What are you doing? The point is here, and you're way over there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
You know what would be comical? Seeing Ovechkin get freight trained by Eddie Shore or Dennis Potvin.
Get a clue. Eddie Shore was 5'11, 190 lbs, which is huge for 1934. Potvin was 6'0, 205 lbs. Ovechkin is 6'2, 225 lbs. If anything, it's Ovechkin who would destroy them.


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12-23-2009, 05:42 PM
  #99
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No, they didn't. Players today could not be trained better off-ice for hockey with the current technological means. Training efficiency is clearly superior now that it was back then. Ovechkin would athletically dominate everyone else by a good margin.

Next.
You do know the Soviets of the time were members of the military, who were kept from their families 11 months out of the year, right? And their "military service" was 100% devoted to training for hockey.

NHL players do train year round, today, but certainly not with the intensity of the Soviets.

As for new fangled supplements like creatine, well, let's just say that the Soviet players admitted they were "offered" mystery shots.

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12-23-2009, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You do know the Soviets of the time were members of the military, who were kept from their families 11 months out of the year, right? And their "military service" was 100% devoted to training for hockey.

NHL players do train year round, today, but certainly not with the intensity of the Soviets.

As for new fangled supplements like creatine, well, let's just say that the Soviet players admitted they were "offered" mystery shots.
And nothing you say refutes the post you are quoting yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

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