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Old
12-23-2009, 03:28 PM
  #51
alexo
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No single player up for renewal should be making more than 2M. The majority of them should be making $1.5M / year at best.

We aren't the Blackhawks. When their 40 point seasons can get us in the playoffs, then we can start talking. However, our youth haven't proven themselves any more than Robert Nilsson had when he got $2M.

The only person that should make more is Grebeshkov, and not based on talent but based on the fact that we have to in order to qualify him.

Some salary can be sacrificed for a long term signing, but for the most part, these guys shouldn't get significant increases. If they do, well they can join the list of players that should be moved as part of a re-build.

In an example of Brule and Stone who have shown great reliability this year, it is only one year. For that reason, if I'm GM'ing this **** show, these guys don't make more than 1-1.5M. They will likely get 1-year deals though because they'd want to prove it wasn't a fluke. They should be thankful with that anyways, as there is a lot less pressure in year two making that cash than if they make $2+

No more paying for potential or for 1-year of success!!!

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12-23-2009, 03:31 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by alexo View Post
No single player up for renewal should be making more than 2M. The majority of them should be making $1.5M / year at best.

We aren't the Blackhawks. When their 40 point seasons can get us in the playoffs, then we can start talking. However, our youth haven't proven themselves any more than Robert Nilsson had when he got $2M.

The only person that should make more is Grebeshkov, and not based on talent but based on the fact that we have to in order to qualify him.

Some salary can be sacrificed for a long term signing, but for the most part, these guys shouldn't get significant increases. If they do, well they can join the list of players that should be moved as part of a re-build.

In an example of Brule and Stone who have shown great reliability this year, it is only one year. For that reason, if I'm GM'ing this **** show, these guys don't make more than 1-1.5M. They will likely get 1-year deals though because they'd want to prove it wasn't a fluke. They should be thankful with that anyways, as there is a lot less pressure in year two making that cash than if they make $2+

No more paying for potential or for 1-year of success!!!
Yes, this has to stop NOW!

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12-23-2009, 03:31 PM
  #53
Joe Hallenback
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If you sign him long term, lets say 5 years at 3 going up to 4 at the end and he stays at that 40-50 point pace for those 5 years then Tambo gets ripped for a bad contract

If you sign him to a short 2 year deal at 2.5 a year and his production goes up to 70 the first year then 80 the next and now he wants a big deal Tambo will get ripped for a bad contract

So I guess the question is how does Tambo want to get ripped for which bad contract?

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12-23-2009, 03:34 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
If you sign him long term, lets say 5 years at 3 going up to 4 at the end and he stays at that 40-50 point pace for those 5 years then Tambo gets ripped for a bad contract

If you sign him to a short 2 year deal at 2.5 a year and his production goes up to 70 the first year then 80 the next and now he wants a big deal Tambo will get ripped for a bad contract

So I guess the question is how does Tambo want to get ripped for which bad contract?
$2.5 for an 80 point season is a great bargain.

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12-23-2009, 03:35 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
If you sign him long term, lets say 5 years at 3 going up to 4 at the end and he stays at that 40-50 point pace for those 5 years then Tambo gets ripped for a bad contract

If you sign him to a short 2 year deal at 2.5 a year and his production goes up to 70 the first year then 80 the next and now he wants a big deal Tambo will get ripped for a bad contract

So I guess the question is how does Tambo want to get ripped for which bad contract?
At this point if Tambo signs him to the 2 year deal for less money I don't think many Oiler fans would rip him. With the Horcoff Gilbert type deals I think Oiler fans have seen enough. Of course there will be fans that will rip him just for something to do.

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Old
12-23-2009, 03:37 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
But you need to be careful about when those deals were signed and the players FA stautus at the time the deal was made. The cap is likely to be flat again this year, which means there will not be milliuons of new dollars in the system like there was when most of those deals were signed. For every $1 more a player gets someone has to take a paycut now.

This means that pay raises need to be handed out very carefully!!!!
A few of the major hockey sites are already saying there is a good chance it goes up 2mil.

Thing is guys like Gagner will never be affected by this, it is more those borderline NHlers.

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Old
12-23-2009, 03:41 PM
  #57
Joe Hallenback
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I think if he explodes then we pay him say 6M a year after that I think he will get ripped. He should have signed to a longer cheaper deal at the start and I guarantee you people will point that out on these boards if that happens.

Hindsight is 20/20


Saying that if we can get him for 3 years at 2.5 a year I would do that

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12-23-2009, 03:44 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
A few of the major hockey sites are already saying there is a good chance it goes up 2mil.
You might not believe me but those sites usually have very little knowledge on which to base these claims. As a mod for the Business Board I see over and over how little most hockey reporters actually know about the workings of the cap. For example, ask one of these guys how to evaluate the impact of the change in the $CDN and see what they say. Right now the NHL is telling the teams that the cap could be anywhere from up $1M to down $1M depending on the direction of the $CDN. $2M up would be extremely optimistic. I have not seen any credible source make that claim so if you have a link I would appreciate it.

If your interested you might want to look here.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=696762&page=33

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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Thing is guys like Gagner will never be affected by this, it is more those borderline NHlers.
There is no evidence what so ever to support this claim. Guys like Gagner were affected a great deal last year. The market for RFA's was far cooler last year than in the immediate past.

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12-23-2009, 03:53 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
You might not believe me but those sites usually have very little knowledge on which to base these claims. Right now the NHL is telling the teams that the cap could be anywhere from up $1M to down $1M depending on the direction of the $CDN. $2M up would be extremely optimistic. I have not seen any credible source make that claim so if you have a link I would appreciate it.


There is no evidence what so ever to support this claim. Guys like Gagner were affected a great deal last year. The market for RFA's was far cooler last year than in the immediate past.
I thought sportenet said 2mil. As for the second part none of chicago's young RFA's suffered last year.

Instead of saying he should get 2mil or whatever. Find me some comparables. Once you start looking you will see that it isn't common for a guy to have 3 seasons of 40-50points, who is full of potential get that little.

People may say he is worth 2mil, but does anyone look around the league to see what 2mil gets you? 2mil in the NHL is would place Gagner this year roughly at the 170th highest paid forward in the NHL and last year the 170th most productive player had 37 points.

I just don't see how Gagner signs for that little given previous deals and recent stats.

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Old
12-23-2009, 03:55 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
If you sign him long term, lets say 5 years at 3 going up to 4 at the end and he stays at that 40-50 point pace for those 5 years then Tambo gets ripped for a bad contract

If you sign him to a short 2 year deal at 2.5 a year and his production goes up to 70 the first year then 80 the next and now he wants a big deal Tambo will get ripped for a bad contract

So I guess the question is how does Tambo want to get ripped for which bad contract?
For us to get out of this mess the days of paying for ifs, buts, and maybes need to be over. Simple as that.

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Old
12-23-2009, 03:58 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
If you sign him long term, lets say 5 years at 3 going up to 4 at the end and he stays at that 40-50 point pace for those 5 years then Tambo gets ripped for a bad contract

If you sign him to a short 2 year deal at 2.5 a year and his production goes up to 70 the first year then 80 the next and now he wants a big deal Tambo will get ripped for a bad contract

So I guess the question is how does Tambo want to get ripped for which bad contract?
you're assuming that he will have a 70 point season followed by an 80 point season.... this is pure fantasy, simple as that... there is literally *nothing* in gagner's NHL resume that would suggest he'll be a PPG player at age 22.... lets remember that this is a task that hemsky, a greatly superior offensive player, has yet to do in his 7 NHL seasons

gagner getting 70/80 point seasons over the next 2 years is laughably absurd

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12-23-2009, 04:00 PM
  #62
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If we can get Gagner to sign a Rostislav Olesz type deal at $3.125M over 6 years or Silimar to Stafford's $1.9M over 2, I think we'll have done very well for ourselves. But to be honest, I think Wolski's 2 year, $5.8M deal he signed 2 years ago is closer to what we'll see happening.

I wouldn't want to sign him to a 1 year deal though, because I wouldn't want all 3 of Gagner, Penner, and Hemsky to be up for new deals at the same time.

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12-23-2009, 04:02 PM
  #63
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I wonder if there is a generally rule across the NHL that no Oiler can be used as a comparable?

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12-23-2009, 04:03 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
you're assuming that he will have a 70 point season followed by an 80 point season.... this is pure fantasy, simple as that... there is literally *nothing* in gagner's NHL resume that would suggest he'll be a PPG player at age 22.... lets remember that this is a task that hemsky, a greatly superior offensive player, has yet to do in his 7 NHL seasons

gagner getting 70/80 point seasons over the next 2 years is laughably absurd
Nobody said that he would score that much in the next two years, it was all hypothetical and i would like to see into that crystal ball that you have since you know for a fact that he won't get 70 pts in one of the next two years and i'm not saying that he will, i'm just saying that it's not impossible like you said.

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12-23-2009, 04:04 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Nobody said that he would score that much in the next two years, it was all hypothetical and i would like to see into that crystal ball that you have since you know for a fact that he won't get 70 pts in one of the next two years and i'm not saying that he will, i'm just saying that it's not impossible like you said.
It is much more impossible than it is possible, so why would you enter into another Horcoffian debacle?

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12-23-2009, 04:22 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Nobody said that he would score that much in the next two years, it was all hypothetical and i would like to see into that crystal ball that you have since you know for a fact that he won't get 70 pts in one of the next two years and i'm not saying that he will, i'm just saying that it's not impossible like you said.
well, you're right, its not *impossible*.... but its highly unlikely

there were 40 players last year who had 70+ points and 17 who had 80+ points.... so if you honestly believe that gagner will be one of the best 70 players in the NHL next season and then one of the 17 best the following season, well.... i guess you are entitled to believe that.... but it doesn't make it any more likely

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Old
12-23-2009, 04:30 PM
  #67
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stupid double posts

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Old
12-23-2009, 05:05 PM
  #68
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Gagne will be a good 2nd line player, but he is not who you ideally want on your first line.


6 years at 21 mil would be an awful signing.


I don't think he's worth more then 2 years at 3.8

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12-23-2009, 05:18 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
Nobody said that he would score that much in the next two years, it was all hypothetical and i would like to see into that crystal ball that you have since you know for a fact that he won't get 70 pts in one of the next two years and i'm not saying that he will, i'm just saying that it's not impossible like you said.
This is what is wrong with all of these contracts, it's the guessing game. Most of these players are either a one year wonder or they have such "potential" and once they get their big contract they poop the bed. I want to see a player earn something before cashing in the big pay day. There will always be bad contracts but the Oilers theme for far too long is lock that guy up because he is going to be good. Not because he is already that good.

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12-23-2009, 05:22 PM
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It seems as though every time a player starts playing well for awhile here, everyone wants them locked up long term. It's happened with Garon, Grebeshkov, Gilbert, Gagner, Nillson, Horcoff, Pisani, Torres etc....none of these guys have ever lived up to a big contract, it was always based on what the player has done short term.

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12-23-2009, 05:31 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
I thought sportenet said 2mil. As for the second part none of chicago's young RFA's suffered last year.

Instead of saying he should get 2mil or whatever. Find me some comparables. Once you start looking you will see that it isn't common for a guy to have 3 seasons of 40-50points, who is full of potential get that little.

People may say he is worth 2mil, but does anyone look around the league to see what 2mil gets you? 2mil in the NHL is would place Gagner this year roughly at the 170th highest paid forward in the NHL and last year the 170th most productive player had 37 points.

I just don't see how Gagner signs for that little given previous deals and recent stats.
You are right that there are not a lot of comparables. But this is in good part because with a rising cap so many such players were getting big raises. The best deals I can use are guys like Stafford and Burrows. These deals are products of a new reality. Teams have little room to increase salary. For Gagner $2M represents a $1.2M dollar raise.


Chicago made a big mistake with their FA`s last year. Guys like Versteeg and Byfuglien are likely on the block because of their salaries. If they could do it over again, my guess is that these numbers would be less.

Again, I think the Oilers will pay Gagner much more. Personally, I would like to see the number come in in the $2M range or the Oilers will continue to be tied up by the cap. I think that this is reasonable, given that Gagner has a long way to go to reach his potential. He produces offensively, but needs to be stronger in many aspects of his game to take the next step. In fact, right now, I would still say that Brule brings a better all round game to the table.

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12-23-2009, 05:50 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
I thought sportenet said 2mil. As for the second part none of chicago's young RFA's suffered last year.

Instead of saying he should get 2mil or whatever. Find me some comparables. Once you start looking you will see that it isn't common for a guy to have 3 seasons of 40-50points, who is full of potential get that little.

People may say he is worth 2mil, but does anyone look around the league to see what 2mil gets you? 2mil in the NHL is would place Gagner this year roughly at the 170th highest paid forward in the NHL and last year the 170th most productive player had 37 points.

I just don't see how Gagner signs for that little given previous deals and recent stats.
That's the problem, if he thinks he's worth it then he best start showing it.

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