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Tony Talk - December 22, 2009

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Old
12-25-2009, 04:45 PM
  #26
opendoor
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
He had no backup plan for those months either but to struggle along and hope for the best. His plan has failed miserably.
The Canucks are 5th in the league in scoring, which is about all Demitra is good for, so I don't see your point.

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12-25-2009, 04:49 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Meganuck View Post
We're not talking about the Free agency period to come. Its about signing the guy for cheap bucks when noone wanted to take a chance on him.
Did you even read what I wrote? Here's a point form summary to make my point more clear:

-Brendan Morrison turns 35 in August, 2010.
-because of the rules in the CBA about 35+ year old players signing multi year deals, this offseason will probably be Morrison's last chance at a multi-year big dollar deal.
-because of that, maximizing his value for next season was probably a big priority when he decided which of the 4 offers he chose to pursue.

Given the above, why would he choose to come fight for a spot in the Canucks training camp when he could go to Washington, play with the most gifted team in the league, and play in a style that highlights his strengths? Lots of players have parlayed strong seasons playing with good offensive players into excellent contracts and Morrison is probably looking to do the same.


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There is no way he could have been worse than Ryan Johnson and right now Gillis would have looked like a genius as Wellwood would have been waived.

Perhaps Gillis' thinking revolved around a new leadership group and not having one of the guys that was part of the old one around.
Morrison would not have signed on to be the 4th line center, it's as simple as that. If you want a replacement for Johnson, you get a good 3rd or 4th liner like Malhotra. There's two sides to a negotiation and Morrison simply would not have chosen the Canucks over the Capitals given the two situations.

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Old
12-25-2009, 04:50 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
The Canucks are 5th in the league in scoring, which is about all Demitra is good for, so I don't see your point.
Oh I never realized a center's duties were only to put points on the board. Silly me.


My point is he should have had a plan other than going with the thin middle we have now. Demitra was going to be out until November regardless, so a plan should have been formulated to increase the center ice depth as soon as it became clear Hodgson was not going to be able to go.

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12-25-2009, 05:12 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
Oh I never realized a center's duties were only to put points on the board. Silly me.


My point is he should have had a plan other than going with the thin middle we have now. Demitra was going to be out until November regardless, so a plan should have been formulated to increase the center ice depth as soon as it became clear Hodgson was not going to be able to go.
The initial prognosis for Demitra was that he was to be back during training camp (opened for veterans on 13 September 2009). The recovery and rehab period was supposed to be 4 months as announced in mid-May-2009.
Quote:
Canucks coach Alain Vigneault also announced that forward Pavol Demitra will have shoulder surgery and be out four months.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...#ixzz0ajzYsNVO

No one was expecting an 8 month+ rehab and certainly not in July.

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Old
12-25-2009, 05:12 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
Oh I never realized a center's duties were only to put points on the board. Silly me.



My point is he should have had a plan other than going with the thin middle we have now. Demitra was going to be out until November regardless, so a plan should have been formulated to increase the center ice depth as soon as it became clear Hodgson was not going to be able to go.
It wasn't clear that Hodgson wasn't going to be able to play until training camp was well underway. With zero cap space, I'm not sure what more could have been done. I would love to have seen Johnson ditched in favor of Malhotra, or something along those lines, but there aren't a whole lot of other ways to add center ice depth that late in the game with no cap space.

In the summer everyone was marveling at the Canucks depth at center and what unfolded was basically a worst case scenario of Wellwood sucking, Demitra and Hodgson being injured long term, and Johnson reverting to his horrible play.

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12-25-2009, 05:20 PM
  #31
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I certainly wasn't marveling at the Canucks center depth.

The point is, we ran one GM out of town for sitting on a problem, eating donuts, if you will- and staring at it.

By both your own, and Wetcoaster's analysis, the center ice position became a problem in September. The two option at C were torpedo'd by injuries at that point.

There were a couple options available at this point of the season. Gillis saw no need to make a trade, signing, move or otherwise to fill the clear depth void at center ice. He needs to take a certain measure of criticism for this, if we are using the Xmas break as a certain measure of the first part of the season-because clearly our bottom 6 center depth isn't up to par.

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Old
12-25-2009, 05:34 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
I certainly wasn't marveling at the Canucks center depth.

The point is, we ran one GM out of town for sitting on a problem, eating donuts, if you will- and staring at it.

By both your own, and Wetcoaster's analysis, the center ice position became a problem in September. The two option at C were torpedo'd by injuries at that point.

There were a couple options available at this point of the season. Gillis saw no need to make a trade, signing, move or otherwise to fill the clear depth void at center ice. He needs to take a certain measure of criticism for this, if we are using the Xmas break as a certain measure of the first part of the season-because clearly our bottom 6 center depth isn't up to par.
The problems really became apparent at the end of the exhibition season as Hodgson was not recovering according to the Canucks medical staff prognosis and Demitra had not yet plateaued in his recovery, necessitating a second operation.

Wellwood had performed well in the exhibition season and it was only when the puck dropped for real that he disappeared off the face of the earth - with only one or two glimpses since.

Consider it a Perfect Storm of centre proportions.

At the time about all that was left was Dominic Moore - and that carried other issues. And he has not had much of a season in Florida.

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Old
12-25-2009, 06:06 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
I certainly wasn't marveling at the Canucks center depth.

The point is, we ran one GM out of town for sitting on a problem, eating donuts, if you will- and staring at it.

By both your own, and Wetcoaster's analysis, the center ice position became a problem in September. The two option at C were torpedo'd by injuries at that point.

There were a couple options available at this point of the season. Gillis saw no need to make a trade, signing, move or otherwise to fill the clear depth void at center ice. He needs to take a certain measure of criticism for this, if we are using the Xmas break as a certain measure of the first part of the season-because clearly our bottom 6 center depth isn't up to par.
The team as it is, is Gillis' team and he's open to criticism for almost any part of it. Still, I'm not sure it would have been reasonable or possible to dramatically improve on the bottom 6 at that juncture. I do think Johnson should have been gone in favor of Malhotra, and that non move was stupid on Gillis' part.

Still, if I had to rank the reasons that the Canucks are where they are, bottom 6 center depth would be pretty far down the list. The Canucks arrogance and unwillingness to give 100% for every game, their bad PK (which admittedly is related to bottom 6 centers), their defense's poor play, and injuries are all more important factors in my mind. They would certainly be better with upgrades in the 3rd and 4th line center spots, but if you're evaluating the team's fortunes at the midway point of the season, I don't believe that bottom 6 center depth has been enough of a problem to warrant chastising management for not having a 7th NHL center at the ready.

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Old
12-26-2009, 03:42 AM
  #34
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Wellwood does not hurt the team as 3rd line center - its the other way around - the team is hurting at 3rd line center and has forced Wellwood into this role. Wellwood should be a 4th line center on the Canucks. In a 4th line role, Wellwood would be a spare part, typically playing 5-10 minutes per game of mostly es minutes but there in case of injury, penalties, or coach wants to mix things up.

Johnson should have been the first choice to fill Kesler's role as 3rd line center when Kesler graduated into the top 6. Unfortunately, Johnson ended up being much more of a 5th line center than a 3rd, unable to generate much forecheck much less offense, constantly pinned in his own zone and with very little game other than shot blocking - a liability on the pk and at even strength, the former relegating the team's pk near the bottom of the barrel and the latter forcing Wellwood into a role (3rd line center) that is above his ability (in hindsight).

So while it does make sense for Gillis to obtain the services of a 3rd line checking center, the team would be better off keeping Wellwood and press boxing Johnson once that happens.

Also, next year Hodgson would hopefully take Wellwood's place on the 4th line, playing the least minutes of all the team's centermen but learning the game without the pressure of having to perform offensively or worse, defensively.

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Old
12-26-2009, 03:46 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
The problems really became apparent at the end of the exhibition season as Hodgson was not recovering according to the Canucks medical staff prognosis and Demitra had not yet plateaued in his recovery, necessitating a second operation.

Wellwood had performed well in the exhibition season and it was only when the puck dropped for real that he disappeared off the face of the earth - with only one or two glimpses since.

Consider it a Perfect Storm of centre proportions.

At the time about all that was left was Dominic Moore - and that carried other issues. And he has not had much of a season in Florida.
robert lang was still available

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