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Is Laviolette working these guys to death in practice?

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Old
12-22-2009, 11:00 AM
  #1
claude boivin lives
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Is Laviolette working these guys to death in practice?

First of all, even if Lavi is killing these guys in practice, it is NOT an excuse for them to be playing the way they have. However, I can't help but seriously wonder if it is in fact happening, and if so it's clearly having a negative effect. 3 of the last 4 games have been the 3 worst games since Lavi took over(aside from that first cluster**** against the Caps). If he couldn't turn the team around quickly, it'd at least be nice for things to slowly get better....yet, that's not happening at all. In these two last games, especially last night's Florida game, I think that pretty much every Flyer out there looked a half step off most of the time. Most of them are only skating hard for half the shift. You see bursts of speed, bursts of effort...and then floating. Barely anyone was working their ass off 100% of the time.

And when you hear all the stuff about the bag skating and then see Lavi come in to a postgame presser, and say things like "we are gonna WORK, and WORK, and WORK, and WORK" and then storm off, you kinda gotta figure he might be working them over a bit the next day. And when the team comes out two days later and performs worse than they did the previous game, you can't help but wonder if Lavi is going to work them even harder the next day. And then you can't help but wonder more about that stuff and if it's a problem, when the team comes out for the game after that and looks tired yet again.

Again, I'm not trying to excuse the ****** performance being turned in by the team...however, there is a point where conditioning players becomes killing players. As the coach, you have to know where to draw the line, and I can't help but wonder right now if Lavi has a good grasp on the situation.

Last night's post-game interviews were just sad though, the tone was shifted away from anger and frustration, and more towards feebleness. Pronger wasn't angry like usual in his interview...he was downcast. Carter was worse(although he's not normally one to be angry or fired up in the first place). LAVI of all people showed no sign of anger or frustration, instead he seemed dejected, depressed...spiritless.

But, whatever Lavi has been doing so far...after watching that interview of his last night, I'd imagine he's now rethinking his approach some. If he has in fact been working them into the ground, maybe he'll start trying something a little different. Who knows, though? By the way, if anyone has been to a practice recently, I'd be interested to hear about it.

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12-22-2009, 11:10 AM
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If he's working them to death in practice, it's their own damn fault for being lazy. No sympathy from me. But the part of the schedule we are in does not help, with a game every other night

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12-22-2009, 11:12 AM
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I hope to hell he's working them to death in practice, because they certainly aren't working very hard in games.

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12-22-2009, 11:13 AM
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Some teams respond positively to that kind of workout (see the 1980 Olympic team and the '94 Rangers coached by Keenan, among others), but I doubt that Lavi is making the players do far more than other coaches in the league.

More than likely these guys are just not used to being put through their paces. Stevens wasn't the kind of guy who would make a player do extra suicides or anything like that. Pronger, in his post-game interviews, doesn't even seem to hint that the players are tired or overworked, and usually a player tries to put in a subtle jab at the coach if that's the case. He puts the blame solely on the work ethic of everyone - I would probably tend to believe him. They need to play with passion.

They also need to play smarter - some of these boneheaded stupid plays where we finally get some momentum the other way and everyone goes off on a line change is incredibly frustrating to watch.

This team needs another shake up, not for the coach to 'lighten up'. Just my two cents.

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12-22-2009, 11:14 AM
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I hope he is overworking them and I hope he continues. Winning a few more games here and there won't make any difference. Sure we might be a 6th seed instead of an 8th seed/not in the playoffs, but the first round of the playoffs we will still get manhandled. This team needs a major attitude overhaul.

I personally think the Olympics this year will be HUGE (and the fact that our stars all played themselves off of their respective teams). It will give Lavi time to work them all to death and then give them a few days to recoup before the final push begins.

I will be devastated if this is not a completely different team attitude wise on March 1st.

My best case scenario: they continue being limp dicks for the next month and a half. Olympic break comes and they are 10-15 points out of a playoff spot. Lavi fixes their **** attitude during the break. March and first half of April are magical, resulting in a 7th or 8th seed. Then, we see what happens.

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12-22-2009, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoDu View Post
If he's working them to death in practice, it's their own damn fault for being lazy. No sympathy from me. But the part of the schedule we are in does not help, with a game every other night
Which is on Holmgren...the timing of the change was horrible. Obviously, IMO, he should have made the move long ago. He could have made the move earlier in the season with more space, or waited to the Olympic break period. Personally, I wish we'd have gone with an interim this season...

I think Laviolette has tried to put too many new pieces in too quickly. They just look lost out there as far as where everyone is at (which helps make it look like a lack of effort). Big picture, I see improvements that should pay dividends, but it's tough to score goals when you have zero cohesiveness in the offensive zone.

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12-22-2009, 11:20 AM
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The players are not in shap do play the style of Laviolette, that's it. I was watching game 6 of the Stanley Cup finals between Carolina and Edmonton and the system of Laviolette was executed and the players were in a good shap to play that style of hockey and the Flyers are not in shap and they are very lazy.

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12-22-2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyers4Ever77 View Post
The players are not in shap do play the style of Laviolette, that's it. I was watching game 6 of the Stanley Cup finals between Carolina and Edmonton and the system of Laviolette was executed and the players were in a good shap to play that style of hockey and the Flyers are not in shap and they are very lazy.
That's three strikes.

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12-22-2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyers4Ever77 View Post
The players are not in shap do play the style of Laviolette, that's it. I was watching game 6 of the Stanley Cup finals between Carolina and Edmonton and the system of Laviolette was executed and the players were in a good shap to play that style of hockey and the Flyers are not in shap and they are very lazy.
Is your 'e' key working?

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12-22-2009, 11:24 AM
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No not really haha i'm sorry

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12-22-2009, 11:31 AM
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I'd guess that Lavi is not pushing the guys too hard at practice. If he was, you'd see urgency in their play, even if they are a step behind because they're too tired.

When my coaches put my teams through bag skates, we did everything we could on the ice in the following game to ensure we weren't going to have another bag skate in the next practice; more guys were willing to block shots, guys fought that extra bit along the boards, everyone busted their ass on the back check, etc. I can't speak for the Florida game, but I haven't seen any improvements in fighting for that extra inch since Laviolette took over. I'm not sure anyone could motivate these guys at the moment, though.

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12-22-2009, 11:45 AM
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I think people often confuse tentative confusion for laziness...I think that's the bigger issue with this team. No one is comfortable (particularly in the offensive zone) with where they're going, and where their teammates are going, and it's leading to lots of ugh.

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12-22-2009, 11:46 AM
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I figured that most people would come in to this thread and say that they hope Lavi is working them to death. I would have agreed with that in the first week or so of his tenure, but it's quickly becoming clear that whatever he's doing isn't working...and the players look ****ing tired a lot of the time. Say what you want about Stevens, but lack of effort was never this glaring of a problem while he was here, at least not for any extended period of time. And(disregarding '06-'07), I'm not sure the team ever looked as bad under Stevens as it has in some of these recent games.

For instance, even take the 10-game losing streak in '07-'08...we came out of that with 2 points, and a whole lot of nothing to show for a bunch of close games. The team was not a complete mess then. They were just struggling, and for the most part losing close games. Florida game in that stretch anyone?

In Lavi's 10 games so far, the team has been a complete ****ing mess for about 75% of it. We've come away with 5 points, and been getting our ***** handed to us left and right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersRKings View Post
Pronger, in his post-game interviews, doesn't even seem to hint that the players are tired or overworked, and usually a player tries to put in a subtle jab at the coach if that's the case.
I think this is a good point, and it does make me question whether or not I'm right in my thinking.
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Which is on Holmgren...the timing of the change was horrible. Obviously, IMO, he should have made the move long ago. He could have made the move earlier in the season with more space, or waited to the Olympic break period. Personally, I wish we'd have gone with an interim this season...

I think Laviolette has tried to put too many new pieces in too quickly. They just look lost out there as far as where everyone is at (which helps make it look like a lack of effort). Big picture, I see improvements that should pay dividends, but it's tough to score goals when you have zero cohesiveness in the offensive zone.
Yeah, I mostly agree with this...and while we're talking about the lack of offensive cohesiveness....christ, Lavi has been doing a terrible job with the lines. I have a bunch of issues, but I'll just talk about Carcillo. People can get excited about his effort all they want(which looks more impressive than it is a lot of the time just because of some of the big hits he attempts, and often misses), but Carcillo with Gagne and Richards was a terrible idea. Then, the ****ing puck drops last night and Lavi has Gagne-Richards-Briere out there. I was all excited, thought Lavi finally figured out that Carcillo should get back on a grinding line. Then, who ****ing marches on the ice next? Hartnell-Carter-Carcillo! At the point you have Hartnell and Carcillo on the same line, it's not even a scoring line anymore...I don't care if Jumbo Joe is between them. Put Carcillo on a damn checking line...one that's meant to be a ****ing checking line.

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12-22-2009, 11:50 AM
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As much as Richards has been shooting himself in the foot, Carcillo has been really hurting his lines offensively. Lots of good chances around the net that he's butchered into the corner, whiffed on, whatever. Not his fault, that isn't one of his strengths...but man has it been aggravating in this slump.

I just hope we can be a .500 hockey team by the Olympic break, and then look to get organized during the stop in play and come out gangbusters down the stretch (I don't think this is that much of an outlier possibility). However, they need to get moving on finding something as a group. I really don't think the issue is effort so much as a bunch of guys playing as individuals.

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12-22-2009, 11:53 AM
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I do not think he has been working them to death because he has been giving them days off.

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12-22-2009, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I think people often confuse tentative confusion for laziness...I think that's the bigger issue with this team. No one is comfortable (particularly in the offensive zone) with where they're going, and where their teammates are going, and it's leading to lots of ugh.
I agree, I agree...but there's no way around the fact that there were a lot of tired legs on the ice last night.

What you're citing as a problem has probably been the larger problem overall in these 10 games. However, tired bodies are a part as well...there are too many situations where guys are floating and there is no possible excuse of confusion or anything else. I'm talking about situations that are cut and dry, where there's only one play to make.

Touching on Lavi's presser again though, it was scary when the one reporter asked him if he felt like there was resistance amongst the players to the stuff Lavi's been trying to teach them. Lavi was extremely unsure of himself when trying to say that he didn't think there was.

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12-22-2009, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I do not think he has been working them to death because he has been giving them days off.
I was trying to read up on some recent articles before I posted this thread, cuz I wanted to see if there was anything that would have helped or hurt my line of thinking. I didn't see anything though...but I guess you've read that he's been giving them days off?

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12-22-2009, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
I was trying to read up on some recent articles before I posted this thread, cuz I wanted to see if there was anything that would have helped or hurt my line of thinking. I didn't see anything though...but I guess you've read that he's been giving them days off?
I know he gave them off after the loss in Pittsburgh. Hartnell and the injured players were the only ones who skated that day. He also made the morning skate optional yesterday. I am pretty sure there was at least one other day off in there.

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12-22-2009, 12:02 PM
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AGAIN! (blows whistle)

AGAIN! (blows whistle)

AGAIN! (blows whistle)

AGAIN! (blows whistle)

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12-22-2009, 12:06 PM
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I hope he is.

Make them suffer as much as we have to suffer watching their sorry *****.

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12-22-2009, 12:07 PM
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If a team has glaring weaknesses (e.g. goaltending, special teams or whatever it is), then working their ***** off in practice by doing skating drills or whatever it is will not make a difference until those weaknesses are adequately addressed. In fact, it can make the situation worse.

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12-22-2009, 12:10 PM
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Yeah, I don't know...between hearing that there's been off days and some of the stuff you guys are pointing out...I'm leaning more towards the "tentative confusion"(<--- term describes it well) being an issue than them being tired.

CF88, I know what you mean, and when I think about it I also once had a coach who killed us in practice(I'm talking worse than Miracle, on the ice til 3am, no lie...the coach owned the rink, so he could have us til whenever he wanted). And even then, we busted our ***** the next game...you just fight through **** like that. There is a point where you can take conditioning too far, and it probably was affecting my team some then...but it's definitely unlikely that it's a significant issue for the Flyers right now.

As for the tentative confusion, though...god dammit, Lavi and the players really need to ****ing figure things out. This **** is ugly.

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12-22-2009, 12:10 PM
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We all knew this stretch in the schedule was going to be difficult (playing every other day) especially compared to the schedule early in the season. A good team is going to show some wear and tear and fatigue under these circumstances. Add in working harder than they've been used to at practice, and trying to learn a new system, and you have today's Flyers.

I agree with Jester though - I don't know that it's laziness as much as completely lost. They simply don't know what to do, where to go, and the offense has disappeared as a result.

It's painful. And it's not pretty to watch. While I really wanted Richards to make Team Canada, I'm quite happy if he doesn't make it this time around. The break gives Lavi a chance to really work with this team. The schedule right now doesn't allow for players to become comfortable with anything new they're doing.

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12-22-2009, 12:20 PM
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What we really need is to get our special teams sorted out...you would think that those things, given that they were the primary responsibility of Mullen and Berube would have good stability through the transition, but we aren't going far until we get our PP working again, and the PK solid.

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12-22-2009, 01:05 PM
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Yeah, special teams are a gigantic issue as well...last night was certainly a laughingstock.

The biggest issue on the PP is net presence. It's just wretched to watch sometimes. When Hartnell isn't out there, we often have guys just rotating that duty throughout the shift...and none of them are good at it. Carter for instance, has often been in front of the net on the PP, and he pretty much sucks at it Giroux is there sometimes, no one is there sometimes, you never know what you're gonna get.

And then when Hartnell is out there...****, I don't know what's happened to him, but he's been crappy too. The more I watch him lately, the more I start to think his past success for us in that role was more of a fluke than anything else...a whole lot of fortunate circumstances. If you watch Hartnell, he spends most of his time in front of the net standing up straight, with his stick in the air, and being pushed around by the D. Add in the fact that he doesn't have great hands, isn't particularly good at deflecting pucks, and has hockey smarts that often make you scratch your head...and well, it's not a recipe for frequent success.

Knuble, used to get down low and dig in, with his feet spread, and stick on the ice. He didn't get pushed around much, he was good at deflecting pucks, had good hands, and was smart....a recipe for frequent success.


As for the PK, I don't have as many answers there. No question, bad luck has played a part. One thing I could maybe say is that players aren't attacking the puck lately as hard as they were before. That's been happening all game long actually. I don't know what it's about...I don't know if Lavi thought they were being too overly aggressive and giving up too many chances, and he voiced that...and now players aren't as sure when to attack and when not to...and that is what's often leading to the tentative confusion and seemingly sitting back more. Along with this, the whole activation of the D has been less notable in recent games as compared to the first few games under Lavi.

But anyway, back to the PK...yeah, guys seem to be sitting back a little bit more. Some things are just baffling, though...like, for instance, the Horton goal last night where Pronger was right near him and halfheartedly waved his stick in the direction of Horton instead of being strong on Horton and muting or at least deflecting the shot as he clearly could have. Was Pronger confused about something there? I don't see how...no way he could have thought it wasn't his play to make or that Coburn should have been the one to make that play or something...Coburn was dropped closer to the net...wasn't close enough. Pronger had to know that play was his to make. Was he just being lazy? Was he tired? I dunno.

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