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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

The end of Canada's dominance?

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Old
01-02-2010, 04:13 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
cue the euro guys pathetically trying to explain how large ice is better and more "skilled"
Ugh, nothing worse than the trap on the bigger ice...even worse than the trap on the smaller ice.

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01-02-2010, 04:14 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Interesting theory. But way off. They thought this 15 or so years ago. USA was supposed to be the next thing in hockey after the 1996 World Cup. Since then there has been two Americans that has won a major award: Leetch won the Norris in 1997. Thomas the Vezina last year. No Americans won the Hart, Art Ross or Conn Smythe since then. In fact only Leetch is the only American to win one of those and that was the Smythe in 1994. No American has even been close to the Hart or Art Ross since their World Cup victory in 1996.

They haven't won a best on best tourny since then, only one WJC where Fleury literally bounced the puck off of his own defenseman, and the less you talk about Team USA's record at the World Championships the better. For about 25 years the % of Americans in the NHL has been closely the same, right around the 15-20% mark. We've waited for years and years and years for this so-called American dominance. Remember 1980? And it's never really happened. I doubt anyone here will ever live to see the day that Americans are considered the best hockey country in the world on a consistent basis. Put it this way. USA barely wins in Basketball in the Olympics. And they have lost both times in the World Baseball Classic convincingly. They aren't the best in their "own" popular sports let alone one that most don't care about.

Hey I really wish USA loved hockey more, I really do, it would help the game out a lot. But they don't for the most part. Until the day comes when a 6'4" young man born in Chicago is more likely to be an NHL center than a star Quarterback in the NFL then we have nothing to worry about in Canada and US won't be a big threat
Big threat? This post is so arrogant on all levels. The US senior team is a big threat now. If you observe the recent American draft trends, you'd know that US junior talent is at a level that it has never been at before. Of course the US doesn't produce as much elite talent as Canada (but then nor does any of the European nations, and last time i checked the Olympic and world champions are both from Europe). The US doesn't need to have all its kids to dream of being NHL players. Hockey can remain a niche sport in the US, and they can still (and do have) over 450,000 registered junior players.

I like how you mock the USA for losing at basketball in the olympics. So Canada won in Turin right? Uh huh.

The US is already a threat at the junior level (as witnessed by the two very close games in the last two years), especially as this is the weakest US junior team for awhile. Considering all the elite prospects from the US recently, they are likely to be highly dangerous and challenge for gold medals at major senior tourneys in the coming years too. No one is claiming they are going to be dominant, but lets not pretend here that Canada is dominant at international senior ice hockey either.

Why are so many Canadians so arrogant/defensive over hockey? Yes you produce the most elite players, but you certainly are not on any level of dominance.

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01-02-2010, 04:15 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
What some don't know or understand is the amount of teams in canada.Great russia is getting a jr league but the fact is canada has 2 levels of jr a hockey then you have jr b etc there are some that i don't think know this.
There are a lot of young Canadian kids playing in the States at different levels as well.

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01-02-2010, 04:19 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by BlackAces View Post
There are a lot of young Canadian kids playing in the States at different levels as well.
My point is at the jr level canada has alot of teams and leagues.

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01-02-2010, 04:19 PM
  #55
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So what's gonna happen to 2nd and 3rd tiers leagues teams that usually have their team filled with talented 16-20 years olds?

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01-02-2010, 04:20 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
My point is at the jr level canada has alot of teams and leagues.
And my point was that it isn't just the Canadian system developing Canadian talent.

I wasn't disagreeing.

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01-02-2010, 04:23 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by BlackAces View Post
And my point was that it isn't just the Canadian system developing Canadian talent.

I wasn't disagreeing.
I agree with what your saying i just wish more people did know this.

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01-02-2010, 04:29 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
I agree with what your saying i just wish more people did know this.
Indeed. The CHL is the best, but you have to acknowledge leagues outside the CHL, and the American systems, that also develop some good Canadian talent.

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01-02-2010, 04:31 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by BlackAces View Post
Indeed. The CHL is the best, but you have to acknowledge leagues outside the CHL, and the American systems, that also develop some good Canadian talent.
If you just look at ontario out side of the chl there is around 70 jr a teams.I bet that is more then most countrys have and that is canada's tier 2 level.

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01-02-2010, 04:33 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by BlackAces View Post
Indeed. The CHL is the best, but you have to acknowledge leagues outside the CHL, and the American systems, that also develop some good Canadian talent.
There really aren't many Canadians heading south of the border to play in US junior leagues though, are there? With all the junior hockey up there I don't see how you'd need to. Hell, some Canadian Junior B is on par or arguably better than some Tier II Junior A in the States. Where you see a lot of Canadian players is in the NCAA, both D-III and D-I.

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01-02-2010, 04:35 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Blue Liner View Post
There really aren't many Canadians heading south of the border to play in US junior leagues though, are there? With all the junior hockey up there I don't see how you'd need to. Hell, some Canadian Junior B is on par or arguably better than some Tier II Junior A in the States. Where you see a lot of Canadian players is in the NCAA, both D-III and D-I.
There are some that go to the ushl as for some its to get away from the presure.

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01-02-2010, 04:37 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
If you just look at ontario out side of the chl there is around 70 jr a teams.I bet that is more then most countrys have and that is canada's tier 2 level.
Although it includes a lot of older guys, the University league is another one league kids can come out of.

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01-02-2010, 04:37 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
There are some that go to the ushl as for some its to get away from the presure.
I knew there were some in the USHL but it's pretty minimal, if for no other reason than I'm fairly certain they have import restrictions for their rosters. I can understand getting away from the pressure, though. That's an angle I didn't take into consideration.

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01-02-2010, 04:39 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Blue Liner View Post
There really aren't many Canadians heading south of the border to play in US junior leagues though, are there? With all the junior hockey up there I don't see how you'd need to. Hell, some Canadian Junior B is on par or arguably better than some Tier II Junior A in the States. Where you see a lot of Canadian players is in the NCAA, both D-III and D-I.
You would be surprised. I was including the NCAA in that group, but there are a fair number of Canadian kids who play in the USHL, given how many options they have up here.

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01-02-2010, 04:41 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Blue Liner View Post
I knew there were some in the USHL but it's pretty minimal, if for no other reason than I'm fairly certain they have import restrictions for their rosters. I can understand getting away from the pressure, though. That's an angle I didn't take into consideration.
I guess I should have indicated that it was more than you might think. Absolutely the kids in the USHL are by far and away American, but some might believe that it was only Americans. I know I was surprised to hear that there is a fair amount in that league.

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01-02-2010, 04:43 PM
  #66
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It remains to be seen how effective it will be but putting money and effort on junior programs can only mean good things for hockey in global sense.

IMO, the end of Canada's dominance will probably be when US decides to care about hockey. I've always wondered how the game will change when all the NBA freakish tall atheletes play hockey. They will have to make the net bigger that's for sure.

by the way, I think some nations are obsessed with the world 'Domination'
Those freakishly large NBA players don't have the physical attributes to excel in hockey.

NBA players typically have long limbs for more endurance and athletic ability (look at Jordan's arm-span).

NHL players typically have stumpier/shorter but more powerful limbs. Shorter, squatter legs means you can be stronger on your skates and not get knocked over.

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01-02-2010, 04:44 PM
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Zdeno Chara is basketball-like in stature and he seems to be excelling just fine.

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01-02-2010, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackAces View Post
I guess I should have indicated that it was more than you might think. Absolutely the kids in the USHL are by far and away American, but some might believe that it was only Americans. I know I was surprised to hear that there is a fair amount in that league.
Well if you want to go the college route it's as good a league to play in as any. Though the better Tier II Canadian leagues to a fine job of it all as well.

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01-02-2010, 05:32 PM
  #69
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Youth hockey is declining in Canada and increasing in the US.

It's just a matter of time when there are equal numbers of Americans and Canadians in the NHL.

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01-02-2010, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Hockey Fan001 View Post
Youth hockey is declining in Canada and increasing in the US.

It's just a matter of time when there are equal numbers of Americans and Canadians in the NHL.
Ugh, I have heard this my entire life.

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01-02-2010, 05:55 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by BlackAces View Post
Ugh, I have heard this my entire life.
I agree. it's great there's so much USA youth hockey, but it's quite a leap from lots of random kids playing to steadily churning out loads of NHL level talent year after year. They seem to be on the right path though.

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01-02-2010, 06:01 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
Yes you do. In fact, the difference can be much larger than in hockey.

Fields are allowed to vary between 90-120m in length and 45-90m in width, though 90-90 isn't allowed. You do have a set size for international games, introduced in 2002, which is 105x68, so pretty much all the bigger clubs play with a field of that size, but there is nothing preventing teams from having a different size in their leagues. Many teams that don't play international competition don't have fields of that size.
Well maybe it was a bad example but you did understand what point i was making, atleast i like to think so anyway.

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01-02-2010, 06:02 PM
  #73
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Ugh, I have heard this my entire life.
Since the Americans brought in their development program the number of Americans drafted in the NHL has risen considerably.

Twenty years ago, no one gave the Americans much of a chance at any tournament. In the last 10 years they're a major force.

The team they send to the Under17 challenge is on par with the top Canadian team.

They routinely beat European teams and hold their own against Canada.

In minor hockey, they are winning more games in tournaments than they are losing.

The NHL last year gave USA hockey a few million to grow the game at the grass roots level.

Just look at how the number of Americans drafted in the NHL has grown over the years, look at the increasing number of American kids playing junior hockey in Canada, look at the decreasing number of Canadian kids playing NCAA (and the increasing number of American kids playing NCAA)

It's a numbers game and as much as a lot of Canadians don't want to recognize it, the day will come when Americans will dominate hockey.

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01-02-2010, 06:03 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
I agree. it's great there's so much USA youth hockey, but it's quite a leap from lots of random kids playing to steadily churning out loads of NHL level talent year after year. They seem to be on the right path though.
Seriously, I can vividly remember hearing how great the US program was in 1997 and 2004. I just turned 28, but this is just the never ending claim that gets spouted off.

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01-02-2010, 06:05 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Hockey Fan001 View Post
Since the Americans brought in their development program the number of Americans drafted in the NHL has risen considerably.

Twenty years ago, no one gave the Americans much of a chance at any tournament. In the last 10 years they're a major force.

The team they send to the Under17 challenge is on par with the top Canadian team.

They routinely beat European teams and hold their own against Canada.

In minor hockey, they are winning more games in tournaments than they are losing.

The NHL last year gave USA hockey a few million to grow the game at the grass roots level.

Just look at how the number of Americans drafted in the NHL has grown over the years, look at the increasing number of American kids playing junior hockey in Canada, look at the decreasing number of Canadian kids playing NCAA (and the increasing number of American kids playing NCAA)

It's a numbers game and as much as a lot of Canadians don't want to recognize it, the day will come when Americans will dominate hockey.
They will be better, they certainly won't dominate.

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