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Have we ruined Gagner?

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Old
01-02-2010, 04:50 AM
  #1
oilerfanatic
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Have we ruined Gagner?

I know he's only 20 and only his third year in the league, but lets call a spade a spade:

-he's small
-not a great shot
-not a great skater

We all know his greatest attribute is his ability to read the play, but can above average awareness alone make him a legit nhl'er? The team blows and it's obviously affecting his play, but I have to say the regression is scary. It seems as though he really has nothing else in his skill set to make up for his lack of size. He seems to be mentally weak because he can't even score on shootouts anymore.

was he rushed, overhyped, or is it just to early to tell? I just can't get excited over eberle seeing how gagner's development has gone.

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01-02-2010, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerfanatic View Post
I know he's only 20 and only his third year in the league, but lets call a spade a spade:

-he's small
-not a great shot
-not a great skater

We all know his greatest attribute is his ability to read the play, but can above average awareness alone make him a legit nhl'er? The team blows and it's obviously affecting his play, but I have to say the regression is scary. It seems as though he really has nothing else in his skill set to make up for his lack of size. He seems to be mentally weak because he can't even score on shootouts anymore.

was he rushed, overhyped, or is it just to early to tell? I just can't get excited over eberle seeing how gagner's development has gone.
oh gawd

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01-02-2010, 05:17 AM
  #3
oilersfan11
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Give it atleast another 4-5 years until he is 25,If he hasn't improved by that time then he might be a bust.

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01-02-2010, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post
oh gawd
are you one of those "negative nannies not allowed blah blah blah" types?

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01-02-2010, 05:29 AM
  #5
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Originally Posted by oilersfan11 View Post
Give it atleast another 4-5 years until he is 25,If he hasn't improved by that time then he might be a bust.
i don't even want to think of him as a bust at this point, and even if he sticks with close to 40-50 points i'm happy for the time being..but what concerns me is that the team environment is killing his confidence...

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01-02-2010, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by oilerfanatic View Post
i don't even want to think of him as a bust at this point, and even if he sticks with close to 40-50 points i'm happy for the time being..but what concerns me is that the team environment is killing his confidence...
I'm far and away more concerned about Cogliano.

Gagner is atleast playing on the first line and getting PP time. Cogliano is bumming it up on the 3rd and 4th lines. Good to see him developing crust, but it's like making a thoroughbred pull the meal cart. Dude must have zilch for confidence.

Gagner PP TOI/G 2:49
Cogliano PP TOI/G 0:35

If Cogs was traded to a team with more opportunity, I'd be sad to see him go, but happy he'll get a vastly better chance to be the player he could be.

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01-02-2010, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullterm View Post
I'm far and away more concerned about Cogliano.

Gagner is atleast playing on the first line and getting PP time. Cogliano is bumming it up on the 3rd and 4th lines. Good to see him developing crust, but it's like making a thoroughbred pull the meal cart. Dude must have zilch for confidence.

Gagner PP TOI/G 2:49
Cogliano PP TOI/G 0:35

If Cogs was traded to a team with more opportunity, I'd be sad to see him go, but happy he'll get a vastly better chance to be the player he could be.
honestly, i didn't really expect cogs to be a go-to offensive guy when he made the team but it is still something i expect from gagner some time down the road..i think gags has more inherent talent that should be realized than cogs does..

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01-02-2010, 05:58 AM
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You can wait for the next month's sequel, and then the next one, then the summer ones, then next year's monthly ones, until this type of thread disappears for a few months and then you'll know his development likely wasn't ruined.

DEVELOPING takes TIME and it's NOT LINEAR. Why do you need an answer now?

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01-02-2010, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by oilerfanatic View Post
i don't even want to think of him as a bust at this point, and even if he sticks with close to 40-50 points i'm happy for the time being..but what concerns me is that the team environment is killing his confidence...
You mean he gets 40 to 50 points yet he is small, His shot is not great, and his skating is not great? Give the kid a fricken break already or atleast make a point that makes some sense. You could of asked your question with out lambasting the guy out of the NHL.

But if you must ask the Oilers have one top six forward with size not exactly a recipe for success for Gagner. Give him proper wingers and he is going to be fine not that he is not fine already. He is somewhat on pace for his best season as he tends to get better as the season gets longer. He is at 22 points which is not break out numbers but not send him to the AHL numbers either. If this is being a negative nannie then so be it. I would rather be that then a negative poster making up stuff to prove their negative points. The kid is fine go pick on Horcoff since Gags has to do his job for him.

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01-02-2010, 06:08 AM
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Oh wait please do not start another Horcoff thread. And you should of known there is many Gagner threads as well that you have already made your ill-conceived thoughts known. Good nite.

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01-02-2010, 06:09 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surshot View Post
You mean he gets 40 to 50 points yet he is small, His shot is not great, and his skating is not great? Give the kid a fricken break already or atleast make a point that makes some sense. You could of asked your question with out lambasting the guy out of the NHL.

But if you must ask the Oilers have one top six forward with size not exactly a recipe for success for Gagner. Give him proper wingers and he is going to be fine not that he is not fine already. He is somewhat on pace for his best season as he tends to get better as the season gets longer. He is at 22 points which is not break out numbers but not send him to the AHL numbers either. If this is being a negative nannie then so be it. I would rather be that then a negative poster making up stuff to prove their negative points. The kid is fine go pick on Horcoff since Gags has to do his job for him.
easy son no need to get hostile...yes he is getting 40-50 points and hopefully his play doesn't decline significantly in the second half so he gets 40 again..but i think i speak for most people when i say i expect him to be more than a 50 point guy down the road..right now it seems like a crap shoot because he doesn't seem to have other qualities to compensate for his weaknesses..

i'm not making anything up...he isn't a great skater, shooter and is small..those are facts..i never called you a negative nanny, in fact i was implying the opposite..i never said he belongs in the ahl so don't know where that came from..

horcoff doesn't even deserve to be lambasted anymore the guy just blows..

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01-02-2010, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surshot View Post
Oh wait please do not start another Horcoff thread. And you should of known there is many Gagner threads as well that you have already made your ill-conceived thoughts known. Good nite.
some of us like to critically analyze and ask tough questions rather than blindly cheer for the team..but hey, whatever floats your boat bud..

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01-02-2010, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by oilerfanatic View Post
some of us like to critically analyze and ask tough questions rather than blindly cheer for the team..but hey, whatever floats your boat bud..
Do you even read what you write. I am critical your just damn rude. Over and over you post nothing but something negative are you that blind that you see no positive with the things that in actual fact are positive no matter of the teams current position in the standings. You make up stuff every time you post just look at your posts. The fact is Gagner is not the reason why this team is losing and the fact is he handle's him self just fine for his size and is rather durable. The fact is he can skate or else he would not be playing a position that you need to be able to skate. The fact is he has a decent shot but he may not get it off enough due to pass first mentality. Thats being critical your just rude.

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01-02-2010, 07:53 AM
  #14
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Gagners problems right now essentially mimmick the teams overall problems, which is a huge lack of consistency. Things are going good and everything goes their way, but hit a slump where things don't go right and it looks ugly and takes forever to pull out of that slide.

I really do believe that if that major issue is addressed with the team then Gagner will be just fine (as well as others)

It's like the teams confidence is the most fragile thing out there and the slightest little bump and it's busted into a million pieces and they can't do anything right.

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01-02-2010, 08:08 AM
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Wheatking
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Gagner's First 40 Games Of Each Season
2009-10: 8 goals and 22 points
2008-09: 4 goal and 12 points
2007-08: 3 goals and 16 points

He may not be on pace for a career high but his point totals in the past haven't exactly been a good indicator of his overall season. Every year he's played like a 7 goal/25 point player for the majority of the season and then would have a big hot streak and score at a point per game pace.

There has been some progression. This season he's actually playing like a 40+ point player...and who knows, maybe he has another hot streak in him.

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01-02-2010, 08:11 AM
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If he is truly a 'playmaker' in the NHL someday...maybe it DOES makes the most sense to start him at the NHL right out of the draft?

I mean...he has to learn to read the play at a step ahead of NHL speed in order to make great NHL passes.

This COULD take a long time to do and it could be the sooner he got started the better.

I don't think Gagner has lost confidence. The trouble I have with him is he still makes the same mistakes he did the day he came into the league. He shoots the puck a bit more but other than that...this is the same player as he was in his rookie year. The game is a track-meet when he's on the rink.

Playmakers are supposed to slow the game down and methodically toggle through the play until they see where the breach is and make a QUICK identification that allows for a SOG.

Thats how its done at the NHL level. Every playmaker I can name...does it this way:

Backstrom, Hank Sedin, Joe Thornton, Chris Pronger, Marc Savard...the rule of thumb for all of them is that; forcing a play on the defence is the same as forcing the play on your linemates...so don't do it.

The golden secret isn't how to make the scoring play. Gagner can make those passes and he knows where they are.

The trick is: what to do with the puck when the scoring play is NOT there. You need to know how to retain possesion or get to a safe/dead-spot to buy yourself or your linemates time WITH the puck.

Sam-Wise has not learned this yet and at the risk of lecturing all you guys about how to play in the NHL (when I have never done it myself) all I can say further is that it IS certainly a difficult thing to learn.

It helped him out exponentially...playing with Penner...because Penner is like a time-machine on skates. The game just stops dead for him because of his mass/protection weapons. ANYONE can give Penner the puck and find that the game slows down...(when Penner is 'on').

But opposing teams will find ways to block the puck from getting to Penner. Once that happens...Gagner STILL struggles to lock the puck up.

Like I said...its not a grand flaw...it just takes time...and becaue he's not a big strong athlete...he doesn't have the tools to steal it back or defend effectivley, so we are left to live with having to be patient.

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01-02-2010, 08:43 AM
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Gagner is still young, only 9 months older than Eberle right now. I'm actually more concerned about his defensive play, if he's big and strong enough. Hoping over another couple seasons with the effort he gives, he will be the true first line C we need him to be.

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01-02-2010, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullterm View Post
I'm far and away more concerned about Cogliano.

Gagner is atleast playing on the first line and getting PP time. Cogliano is bumming it up on the 3rd and 4th lines. Good to see him developing crust, but it's like making a thoroughbred pull the meal cart. Dude must have zilch for confidence.

Gagner PP TOI/G 2:49
Cogliano PP TOI/G 0:35

If Cogs was traded to a team with more opportunity, I'd be sad to see him go, but happy he'll get a vastly better chance to be the player he could be.
Agreed.

Cogliano should be a 30 goal scorer in this league, his confidence has to be destroyed by being shoved aside so Patrick O'Sullivan can get quality ice time.

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01-02-2010, 10:32 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerfanatic View Post
are you one of those "negative nannies not allowed blah blah blah" types?
Are you one of the people that booed Poti out of town?

As you said he is 20 years old!!

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01-02-2010, 11:20 AM
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I'm not worried about Gagner. He's developing at the right pace. Would I have rather seen him stay in junior, in hindsight? Yes I would have. But I know that just about everyone was all about him being called up and given a chance. I know of one guy that suggested otherwise, and he was completely flamed for that idea.

Anyways, I think Gagner actually has a very good shot, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. He could probably stand to take it more, but he shows good accuracy. He'll get better with the velocity with age.

Anyways, at 20 years old, it is silly to even be thinking that he is going to be a dud (which I presume you are not saying). I think the Oilers are doing what they can to give him every opportunity to succeed though, with top minutes as he needs it, and 4th line when he needs to learn to battle more.

The tough part here is fan/media expectation. It puts a LOT of pressure on kids here (Comrie, Arnott, Penner, Lupul perhaps, to name a few) to succeed. From what I recall, Jason Spezza struggled with being rushed into the league as well. But the Sens were lucky enough to be able to send him to the AHL to work on his game. We don't have the same benefit with Gagner now.

Yah, you can look back and ask if it was the right choice, but why bother. As long as the Oilers learn from this with new prospects (Eberle and Omark not making the team are good examples) and figure out ways to help develop Gagner, I'm OK with it. Again, we can all use hindsight to say it was a bad decision, but I remember ninetysome perecent of Oil fans wanted him to stay in the NHL. And well, he even had a great year his first year, all things considered.

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Old
01-02-2010, 11:22 AM
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Probably I mean, he is almost 21, that's what, nearly over the hill in prospect years. Ugh.

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01-02-2010, 12:08 PM
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I'm not sure we ruined him yet.
but I can't recall the last oilers prospect that we successfully developed.

If it wasn't for some coaching changes like Quinn, I would write off our young guys.
But Quinn is supposed to be good with developing young kids, so there's hope in that.

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01-02-2010, 12:13 PM
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How could we have ruined Gagner? The guy gets every cherry minute possible and has been spoon fed on a silver platter since he entered the league.

If Gagner doesn't progress it's mostly Gagner's doing.

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01-02-2010, 12:57 PM
  #24
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I really don't think we have hurt him at all if anything we are making him stronger Mentally. If you look at the first rounders from 2007 he is more experienced in the NHL than almost all of them and this will pay huge dividends for us in the next couple of years.

2007 NHL Entry Draft

Round 1 NHL Totals
Round Num. Drafted By Player Pos Drafted From GP G A Pts PIM
1 1 Chicago Patrick Kane R London Knights [OHL] 162 46 96 142 94
1 2 Philadelphia James Van Riemsdyk L US National Under 18 Team
1 3 Phoenix Kyle Turris C Burnaby Express [BCHL] 66 8 13 21 23
1 4 Los Angeles Thomas Hickey D Seattle Thunderbirds [WHL]
1 5 Washington Karl Alzner D Calgary Hitmen [WHL] 30 1 4 5 2
1 6 Edmonton Sam Gagner C London Knights [OHL] 155 29 61 90 74
1 7 Columbus Jakub Voracek R Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL] 80 9 29 38 44
1 8 Boston Zach Hamill C Everett Silvertips [WHL]
1 9 San Jose Logan Couture C Ottawa 67's [OHL]
1 10 Florida Keaton Ellerby D Kamloops Blazers [WHL]
1 11 Carolina Brandon Sutter C Red Deer Rebels [WHL] 50 1 5 6 16
1 12 Mtl. Canadiens Ryan McDonagh D Cretin Derham Hall H.S. (Minn.)
1 13 St. Louis Lars Eller F Frolunda Jrs (Sweden)
1 14 Colorado Kevin Shattenkirk D US National Under 18 Team
1 15 Edmonton Alex Plante D Calgary Hitmen [WHL]
1 16 Minnesota Colton Gillies C Saskatoon Blades [WHL] 45 2 5 7 18
1 17 NY Rangers Alexei Cherepanov R Omsk Avangard [Russia]
1 18 St. Louis Ian Cole D US National Under 18 Team
1 19 Anaheim Logan MacMillan L Halifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]
1 20 Pittsburgh Angelo Esposito C Quebec Remparts [QMJHL]
1 21 Edmonton Riley Nash C Salmon Arm Silverbacks [BCHL]
1 22 Mtl. Canadiens Max Pacioretty L Sioux City Musketeers [USHL] 34 3 8 11 27
1 23 Nashville Jonathan Blum D Vancouver Giants [WHL]
1 24 Calgary Mikael Backlund C Vasteras IK [Swe-1] 1 0 0 0 0
1 25 Vancouver Patrick White C Tri-City Storm [USHL]
1 26 St. Louis David Perron C Lewiston MAINEiacs [QMJHL] 143 28 49 77 88
1 27 Detroit Brendan Smith D St. Michael's Buzzers [OPJHL]
1 28 San Jose Nick Petrecki D Omaha Lancers [USHL]
1 29 Ottawa Jim O'Brien C U. of Minnesota [NCAA]
1 30 Phoenix Nick Ross D Regina Pats [WHL]

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Old
01-02-2010, 02:04 PM
  #25
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I don't really subscribe to the theory that you can ruin a young player by bringing him into the nhl early unless that player gets injured. Minnesota does it too much and their guys have turned into solid players and if not solid players probably better players than they would have been had they not played under Lemaire. I'm talking about Koivu, PMB, Brent Burns(not having a great year but played really amazing under Lemaire) etc Theres a million examples of guys who made the nhl when they were 18 or 19 and had success and also a lot of examples of guys who made the nhl and just were not that good.

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