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Have we ruined Gagner?

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Old
01-02-2010, 02:51 PM
  #26
CupofOil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerfanatic View Post
I know he's only 20 and only his third year in the league, but lets call a spade a spade:

-he's small
-not a great shot
-not a great skater

We all know his greatest attribute is his ability to read the play, but can above average awareness alone make him a legit nhl'er? The team blows and it's obviously affecting his play, but I have to say the regression is scary. It seems as though he really has nothing else in his skill set to make up for his lack of size. He seems to be mentally weak because he can't even score on shootouts anymore.

was he rushed, overhyped, or is it just to early to tell? I just can't get excited over eberle seeing how gagner's development has gone.

I can understand your concern especially considering how well he played 2 years ago but keep in mind that he's still 20 years old and the team is a mess...
He played his best in the past when most of the vets were injured and he had to take on a bigger role with the team so maybe his regression is due to being surrounded by vets who are not playing the game the right way and it's rubbing off on him.
I say give him 2-3 years to see where he's at when the team takes on a different identity because i have a feeling that he's one of those players who we have to be really patient with and if we are patient, that he will make most of us happy.
Also, i don't see why this makes you concerned about Eberle, they are two different players and Eberle seems to have more versatility to his game than Gagner so that his size won't hinder him too much because he can do other things to compensate.

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01-02-2010, 03:38 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post
Do you even read what you write. I am critical your just damn rude. Over and over you post nothing but something negative are you that blind that you see no positive with the things that in actual fact are positive no matter of the teams current position in the standings. You make up stuff every time you post just look at your posts. The fact is Gagner is not the reason why this team is losing and the fact is he handle's him self just fine for his size and is rather durable. The fact is he can skate or else he would not be playing a position that you need to be able to skate. The fact is he has a decent shot but he may not get it off enough due to pass first mentality. Thats being critical your just rude.
-never said gagner is the reason we're losing
-never said he was injury prone

seems like you're the one making stuff up.

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01-02-2010, 03:39 PM
  #28
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There is no problem with Gagner. Everyone new he wasn't going to be an impact superstar coming into the NHL (like a Crosby). But he has had some good success on a bad team. He has shown spurts of his potential in long stretches (20 games). I think his confidence is fine...probably because he comes from a good hockey family. This kid will be dynamite in a couple of years and a big part of our youth movement.

As for Cogs. When he hits about 25 he'll be a solid 25+ goal a year third liner who gets second line minutes when the team needs him at worst and a 30+ goal scorer impact second liner at best. Great for a small player drafted late in the 1st round

Remember Cammalleri didn't get to the NHL until 24-25 and wasn't considered a legitimate sniper until last year. He is 28 this year. Cogs is 6 years younger and scored 18 goals in both years he has played in the NHL.

The real danger in playing quality young guys isn't playing them too early. It is placing unrealistic expectaions on them or comparing them to older experienced NHLers. Then giving up on them to early (See Greene)

Gagner and Cogliano are fine. If anything they should be easy to sign to good contracts right away.

In 3 consecutive years Pits finished bad enough to draft 1st or 2nd overall. And got Crosby in the lock out draft. Chicago drafted in the top 3 in 3 of 4 years. Well run teams like Wash (AO was there only high pick), Bos, SJ, Det and Phil have come by their teams honestly...competing every year while drafting and trading smartly...mostly.

Edmonton has the potential to be called the latter in 3-4 years with smart draft picks like Gagner, Cogs, Eberle, MPS (none of these in the top 5) and possible great late picks like Lander and Omark. Good young def core as well. JDD might be turning into a usefull NHLer (I still think Halak and JDD for the next 5 years+ is the way to go)

A top 2 pick and an early second round pick will go a long way to towards becoming a team that is well run and respected.

The players to trade this year are Grebeshkov and Nilsson while their value is high. Staios and Moreau should be on their way out as well. Horcoff's salary will haunt us for a while but we still need a player like in in the right role.

I think we need a healthy Souray and Vishnovski for a couple of years while our young D develop. Nothing wrong with Souray-Gilbert, Vishnovski-Smid for the next 3+ years, though 1 of those salaries might force a move sooner. Consistent Def is the key on the back end IMO. We need a solid 5-7 group to really compete. (If we had just kept Hejda!) Peckham and Petry will find their way on the roster soon enough I think. Chorney...maybe, looked good as an Oiler but is getting killed in the AHL.

Hemsky, Penner, Eberle, Gagner, MPS and Hall or Seguin is a great top 6

Cogs, Brule, Stortini, JFJ, Potulny make up 5 of a solid bottom 6

It will take a few years of experience then we should be the class of the Northwest. We just have to keep the faith. The Oilers management have to stop chasing the pipe dream of a 11 mil/yr supersta...the dreaded over payment....and commit to the the young guys we have and sign the gems we stumble across (Glencross and Hejda before now Potulny and Brule).


Last edited by jeetz: 01-02-2010 at 04:16 PM.
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Old
01-02-2010, 03:46 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Are you one of the people that booed Poti out of town?

As you said he is 20 years old!!
no, i was involved in booing cory cross out of town, but tom poti was a tom gilbert lite..

yes, gags is 20 and the only way i can see him develop is if he works on his speed or focuses on getting stronger...

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01-02-2010, 03:50 PM
  #30
misfit
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We didn't ruin him because he hasn't been ruined.

He's so far ahead of most where most players are at his age, it's not even funny. Take a look at the NHL's top players, and see how old they were when they started to put up big numbers and were relied upon by their teams to carry them anywhere. Gagner is the future of this team, and he's progressing just fine.


Here are some of the leauge's star players with their age when they broke out, and how many years they were removed from their draft year.

Getzlaf: 22/5
Perry: 23/6
Kovalchuk: 18/1
Savard: 23/6
Bergeron: 20/3
Vanek: 22/4
Staal: 20/3
Iginla: 22/5
Jokinen: 26/9
Hossa: 21/4
Kane 18/1
Nash: 21/4
Hejduk: 24/7
Stastny: 20/2
B.Richards: 22/5
Morrow: 26/9
Datsyuk: 24/4
Zetterberg: 24/5
Hemsky: 22/5
Weiss: 25/8
Kopitar: 19/2
Smyth: 24/7
M.Koivu: 25/7
Cammalleri: 24/6
Elias: 23/6
Parise: 22/4
Weight: 22/4
Gaborik: 19/1
Spezza: 22/5
Alfredsson: 22/2
Kovalev: 26/9
M.Richards: 22/5
Gagne: 21/4
Carter: 23/6
Doan: 23/6
Crosby: 18/1
Malkin: 20/2
Thornton: 21/4
Heatley: 20/2
Marleau: 25/8
Kariya: 19/2
Tkachuk: 21/4
Lecavalier: 22/5
Kessel: 20/3
H. Sedin: 24/6
D. Sedin: 24/6
Demitra: 22/5
Ovechkin: 19/2
Semin: 22/5


So aside from a handful of players (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Heatley, Kane, Gaborik), most of the game's star players weren't putting up those kinds of numbers until they were around 2-4 years older than Gagner is now. Even the ones who made it to the NHL right out of their draft years.


So in summary: Relax

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01-02-2010, 04:41 PM
  #31
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For all the folks on here posting over and over again: he's young, wait till he's 24-25.... question for you?
Do you realize when he will be a UFA? Thanks to management rushing Gags into the league at an early age I don't think we have a lot of time with him past his mid twenties - unless of course he decides to resign here.
To me that's just as critical an issue as his current play.
Secondly, I think its extremely disingenuous for someone to talk about Gags and not admit that he looked like a much, much better player when he first came into the league and looks like he's seriously taken steps backwards in the past 2 years.
I don't understand how that's possible, do the London Knights develop players better than the Oilers, cause it sure looks like that.

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01-02-2010, 05:11 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleed_oil View Post
For all the folks on here posting over and over again: he's young, wait till he's 24-25.... question for you?
Do you realize when he will be a UFA? Thanks to management rushing Gags into the league at an early age I don't think we have a lot of time with him past his mid twenties - unless of course he decides to resign here.
To me that's just as critical an issue as his current play.
Secondly, I think its extremely disingenuous for someone to talk about Gags and not admit that he looked like a much, much better player when he first came into the league and looks like he's seriously taken steps backwards in the past 2 years.
I don't understand how that's possible, do the London Knights develop players better than the Oilers, cause it sure looks like that.
Often players will sign a contract for a long time that goes into their UFA years. Usually a team pays more than they are worth at the time if signing with the hopes they will be worth more at the end of their contract. See Hemmer also now Gilbert.

At the beginning he was playing against the softest competition, as he was when he was on the 4th line to start the season. Now he is playing against the best competition. Probably why he doesn't look as good.

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01-02-2010, 05:22 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misfit View Post
We didn't ruin him because he hasn't been ruined.

He's so far ahead of most where most players are at his age, it's not even funny. Take a look at the NHL's top players, and see how old they were when they started to put up big numbers and were relied upon by their teams to carry them anywhere. Gagner is the future of this team, and he's progressing just fine.


Here are some of the leauge's star players with their age when they broke out, and how many years they were removed from their draft year.

Getzlaf: 22/5
Perry: 23/6
Kovalchuk: 18/1
Savard: 23/6
Bergeron: 20/3
Vanek: 22/4
Staal: 20/3
Iginla: 22/5
Jokinen: 26/9
Hossa: 21/4
Kane 18/1
Nash: 21/4
Hejduk: 24/7
Stastny: 20/2
B.Richards: 22/5
Morrow: 26/9
Datsyuk: 24/4
Zetterberg: 24/5
Hemsky: 22/5
Weiss: 25/8
Kopitar: 19/2
Smyth: 24/7
M.Koivu: 25/7
Cammalleri: 24/6
Elias: 23/6
Parise: 22/4
Weight: 22/4
Gaborik: 19/1
Spezza: 22/5
Alfredsson: 22/2
Kovalev: 26/9
M.Richards: 22/5
Gagne: 21/4
Carter: 23/6
Doan: 23/6
Crosby: 18/1
Malkin: 20/2
Thornton: 21/4
Heatley: 20/2
Marleau: 25/8
Kariya: 19/2
Tkachuk: 21/4
Lecavalier: 22/5
Kessel: 20/3
H. Sedin: 24/6
D. Sedin: 24/6
Demitra: 22/5
Ovechkin: 19/2
Semin: 22/5


So aside from a handful of players (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Heatley, Kane, Gaborik), most of the game's star players weren't putting up those kinds of numbers until they were around 2-4 years older than Gagner is now. Even the ones who made it to the NHL right out of their draft years.


So in summary: Relax
from this list..how many of these players are known to be slow, small and have an average shot...all these players have at least one thing that sticks out...for gagne it's always "he sees the game really well blah blah" and that's it..

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01-02-2010, 05:41 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerfanatic View Post
from this list..how many of these players are known to be slow, small and have an average shot...all these players have at least one thing that sticks out...for gagne it's always "he sees the game really well blah blah" and that's it..
Yet he's been every bit as effective (or more) in the NHL as most of those players at the same age. We're not talking about projecting a kid who's tearing up the junior leagues, we're talking about a player who's already playing in the NHL and having more success than even most of today's star players do. And for the record, seeing the game (ie.hockey sense) is a far more important skill/ability than being big, fast, or having a 100mph slapshot. If it wasn't, JFJ would be a Hart candidate, and Alexei Semenov would have a couple Norris Trophies by now.

There's no guarantee that he'll ever be a superstar player, but history would suggest that the odds of him being a bust is even less likely.

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01-02-2010, 06:58 PM
  #35
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I think we may have found one of those missing posters getting asked about in the other thread

OFC~DS f

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01-02-2010, 07:06 PM
  #36
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He may be young, but some of you act like he just put skates on for the first time this season. He's played almost 200 games in the NHL [195, to be exact]. I don't understand why so many people want to excuse his sucky play because he's young.....

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01-02-2010, 07:12 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by MePutPuckInNet View Post
He may be young, but some of you act like he just put skates on for the first time this season. He's played almost 200 games in the NHL [195, to be exact]. I don't understand why so many people want to excuse his sucky play because he's young.....
You're right, lets label him a bust because he's obviously peaked at age 20....
Nobody is saying that he hasn't sucked, it's just that he's really young and young players tend to go through growing pains but if you want to write him off, by all means that's your opinion, i personally am going to stay patient with him.

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01-02-2010, 07:15 PM
  #38
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Because he hasn't been playing that poorly. Gilbert Brule is applauded left and right on this board, and he's got only 1 more point, has the same number of NHL games under his belt (and a lot more pro experience), and is a full 2 years older.

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01-02-2010, 07:22 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misfit View Post
Because he hasn't been playing that poorly. Gilbert Brule is applauded left and right on this board, and he's got only 1 more point, has the same number of NHL games under his belt (and a lot more pro experience), and is a full 2 years older.
perhaps we're making the same mistake with gags that columbus made with brule?

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01-02-2010, 07:28 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
You're right, lets label him a bust because he's obviously peaked at age 20....
Nobody is saying that he hasn't sucked, it's just that he's really young and young players tend to go through growing pains but if you want to write him off, by all means that's your opinion, i personally am going to stay patient with him.
I didn't call him a bust nor am I writing him off. But, I also don't believe in the "but he's young" excuse. It's not like he doesn't have NHL experience. I could cut him a little slack because of his age, but to pretend that his sucktastic play is mostly due to that alone seems a bit too forgiving, IMO.

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01-02-2010, 07:33 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerfanatic View Post
I know he's only 20 and only his third year in the league, but lets call a spade a spade:

-he's small
-not a great shot
-not a great skater


We all know his greatest attribute is his ability to read the play, but can above average awareness alone make him a legit nhl'er? The team blows and it's obviously affecting his play, but I have to say the regression is scary. It seems as though he really has nothing else in his skill set to make up for his lack of size. He seems to be mentally weak because he can't even score on shootouts anymore.

was he rushed, overhyped, or is it just to early to tell? I just can't get excited over eberle seeing how gagner's development has gone.
How can the organization be blamed for these?

Moreover, holy over-recation Batman, if we're calling him done already. Let's maybe discuss this in 5 years times.

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01-02-2010, 08:02 PM
  #42
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The obviuos answer to this question is "Vorachek".

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01-03-2010, 01:11 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by oilerfanatic View Post
perhaps we're making the same mistake with gags that columbus made with brule?
Perhaps you're not making any sense. The only similarities between the two is the fact that they were the same age when they started playing in the NHL. But so were Gaborik, Kane, and Thornton. They aren't comparable situations.

When Brule was in Columbus, he played 146 games and managed to put up 32 points never getting more than 19 in any given year and was well in the red the whole time. Gagner is so far ahead of where Brule was at 18 it's not even funny. Gagner was clearly ready to make the jump when he did, and proved it by being one of the best players in camp and over the preseason and then going on to put up 49 points in 79 games at 18. Brule clearly was not.

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01-03-2010, 03:34 AM
  #44
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It's getting there. He's been in a very, very poor locker room environment since day one.

Remember when the Oilers had perhaps the tightest locker room in the entire NHL? It makes one pine for the late 90's, early 00's.

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01-03-2010, 04:12 AM
  #45
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Gagner will be the next Doug Weight.

He has improved here every single season. The counting numbers are similar, but his play on the ice (ex, the guys he plays with and against, the way he plays away from the puck) are night and day.

Giving up on him after throwing him into the fire (and watching him miraculously swim) would be idiotic.

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01-03-2010, 04:14 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misfit View Post
Because he hasn't been playing that poorly. Gilbert Brule is applauded left and right on this board, and he's got only 1 more point, has the same number of NHL games under his belt (and a lot more pro experience), and is a full 2 years older.
Can we just put this as a header at the top of the page?

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01-03-2010, 04:38 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
It's getting there. He's been in a very, very poor locker room environment since day one.

Remember when the Oilers had perhaps the tightest locker room in the entire NHL? It makes one pine for the late 90's, early 00's.
The losses of Smyth, Greene, Stoll, Reasoner, Glencross have left a big whole in the organization. For on ice and off ice, as well, each in their own way. Greener... he's meat and potatoes, but look at how LA handed him an A and how well they are doing now. Same with Stoll. Think I'll be rooting for LA this post-season, if I squint hard enough and have enough beers I can pretend it's the Oilers I wish my team was.

The most frustrating part is the organization parted ways with the guys who would be the EXACT solution to the team's woes today.

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01-03-2010, 04:39 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misfit View Post
Because he hasn't been playing that poorly. Gilbert Brule is applauded left and right on this board, and he's got only 1 more point, has the same number of NHL games under his belt (and a lot more pro experience), and is a full 2 years older.
Different expectations.

Everyone expects Gags to be a 1C.

Brule was a re-build that hopefully could make it on the 3rd line.

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01-03-2010, 05:07 AM
  #49
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I think he's doing ok considering all the pressure that's on him.

I rarely agree with Dan Tenser, but we agree that he came into the league at least a year early.

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01-03-2010, 09:42 AM
  #50
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Good God people, take a pill! There's nothing wrong with Gagner! He is only 20 years old, and already has 2 1/2 years under his belt. Has his play dropped a bit this year? Sure who's play hasn't? Gagner,Brule, and Nilsson are just three of the dark horses on this team right now. I'd like to see this same question posted in 3 years.

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